Your calculation on the Claymor and Staff is correct.  You should note though that the Claymore costs a LOT more than the staff.  I reckon yuo're heading the right way with the increase in the points available each level up, but wrong about Str and attack etc being useless double ups.  I'll explain why:

The current system each point in Str anove 10 increases your attack by 10% of the Weapon you are using.  Each point of Str below ten decreases your attack by 10% of your weapon.  This is NOT DnD.   DnD gives a flat modifier to damage based on +1 dmg per 2 Str gain, starting from 13.  Currently at level u pyou only receive 1 point which you can spend in .2 increments.  Therefore each increase in level you can only boost abilities by 10% overall.  So if you do a complete balanced Sov, you only gain 2% attack, 2% Def, etc per level.

What I like about one of your proposals:  Increase the points gained per level up.  Perhpas increasing the points gained for each level to 3.  This would mean that you can boost 3 stats by 10% for each level, or spread them more evenly.  This WOULD make a lvl 6 Sov noticeably more powerful than a lvl 3 Sov.

I'm against removing that stats that you have claimed above as duplicates because I want to be able to compensate for my weak Sov by buying him/her a more powerful weapon.  Then I can just put all my points into Int or Essence.  Granted, My Sov would NOT want to get into a melee fight with a pure fighter, but my Sov with the giant sword of the starscould easily take out peasants with spears or even daggers in a pure melee fight.

Someone above mentioned making the stats even more interrlated..... ouch....  unless you are REALLY GOOD at MATHS, this will make it hard to figure out what you want to change to get the best effects.  That and memorising complex formulas is a pain in the arse.....

Other Notes:  Dex acts the same as Str but for Defense.  Essence = Max Mana.  Int is used for damage of spells, and various other spell effects, usually on the same basis as Str, ie 1 int = +/- 10% with base = 10.

Combat speed I will discuss in the next post.

Stats can be seperated into two sets.  Base attributes, and calculated stats.   Str, Dex, Ess, Wis, Int, are all Base attributes.  Whereas Mana, Mana regen, Attack, Def, are calculated stats.

Calculated stats should be wholy derived by a calculation on Base attributes.  Eg  Attack = Str/10*Weap atk.

Combat speed is a hybrid.  Yuo can modify it by spending pooints in it at level up.  But it is then modified by equipment.  I propose that Combat speed be changed to be wholly calculated.  ie, some function of Dex and equipment modifiers.  This would bring it into line with the rest of the stats and attributes. 

The formulae i put forward would be:  Combat Speed = Movement Speed(map) - (Sum of Equip penalties) + (Dex/10).

therefore a Sov with no equipment (Standard map movement in Beta2B is 2), can make 3 moves worth 1 combat speed each turn, assuming Dex of 10 (average).  However, the same sov wearing Full Plate (-.5 Combat movement), will only get to make 2.5 moves.  and if their dex is only 5, they only get to make 2 moves!

I tossed the idea out of actually makking speed some function multiplied or divided by Dex, because I didn't like the diminishing returns that occured as Dex got large.  ie if the formula had  Penalty/Dex*10, then an increase of 5 wuold yeild a .4 decrease in the penalty, but a further increase of 5 dex would only result in a further .1 decrease in the penalty.  (Assumed Equip Penalty total was 1).

Does this solve the issue you are seeing TyLarson?

I like the way you handled combat speed there. I think I might have mentioned something similar in an earlier post or at least thought something along those lines. I think it would solve it and it makes logical sense with Dexterity being part of the derived stat. Some game systems use a combination of a dexterity type ability and an intelligence/wit ability to make a derived initiative stat. How quick you think has a direct relation to how fast you move in combat...though with a lot of training it isn't necessarily your intelligence but your nervous/muscle memory that reacts rather than conscious thought. Not everyone fights like Downey's sherlock...maybe more of intuition in this way wisdom could get involved. Eh, I just like tooling around with game systems and throwing out ideas.

Didn't mean to step on anyone's toes and I find it somewhat strange to have attracted ire for simple suggestions.

From a design point of view, derived (calculated) stats should use formulae that make it easy to remember what effects the outcome the most.  Using to many input attributes(base attributes, eg Str) makes the particular stat seem like a black box thing.  Dex is intuitive to link to combat speed, and initiative.  Only people well schooled in thought would see how intelligence and wisdom effect Initiative (I've assumed you meant initiative as in who attacks first...).

Top Tips: Keep formulae simple.  Try not to use more than 2 base attributes.  Publish the formulae somewhere so maths guppies like myself will be happy 

What they should do at least is an effort to distance the attributes from DnD. Currently, they are an exact match even if the math might be different. For someone who has played DnD the attributes already have a meaning and they scream mediocre. No Sovereign should be mediocre even in the beginning.

Considering that, I don't see the need for negative modifiers for Sovereigns. I can see how a spell of Weakness might give you -4 Str, but it might as well give you -40% attack, or -4 attack. So perhaps the attributes should default to 1.

I think an attribute called "Wisdom" is too vague for a strategy game where we don't roleplay a "wise" leader. The names of the attributes should be to the point so you can connect them to the modifiers they affect.

Logically Intelligence should affect spell research instead of Wisdom. I would suggest having Intelligence limit your Spell points and renaming Wisdom into Power/Spellpower/Willpower and making it do what Int does now. Unless spell potency can be handled with Essence in which case we only need 5 attributes.

Lots of good points you make stillsingle. You could post an explanation of each attribute in the Hiergammonpedia and the mathematics behind it for those interested. Most won't need the equations but there are enough math nerds out there that want to know how things work.

You probably phrased things in a much more positive light then I did. Rather than get rid of you chose move away from and if I had done the same there would probably have been less ire.

You make a good point about the naming conventions of the base attributes Hound.  I sort of like your idea about cleaning put the intelligence/wisdom double up, but with a couple of changes, partly to keap with the game theme (Essence).  I have a feeling that your idea or my modification to your idea won't be taken up because they probably want spell power  divorced from mana regen.

Keep Essence = Max Mana.  Remove Intelligence.   Use Willpower to determine spell damage/effect.  Use willpower to also manage mana regen.  Call Willpower something else, eg your suggestion "Power".

Currently, Int determines spell damage/effect.  Willpower only does mana regen.  (I don't know wbout learning spells, this appears to be done by building arcan labs in cities to give you "spell points" to spend on acquiring (leaning) new spells).

@TyLarson, No way am I going to be writing the formulae in the Heirgammopedia!!   I've worked out formulae before from playing a game so that my bro and I could re-write it to be easily playable in Windows.  It is HARD, and requires a lot of reperformance, testing of the formulae you come up with, and then reperformaing agian.  Also, If the formaule are too complex, it is very much beyond my capabilities to work out the formulae knowing only the output and guessing at the inputs.

... if you know what the attribute does (ie a developer) I see no reason to not have a page in the Hiergamemnon that gives detailed descriptions of what each stat does ... (opening stats to have a more complex relationship with the gaming world)

For instance, Strength could effect not only attack but also damage resistance, while Constitution could effect HP increased on level up as well as resistance to status effects/ status effecting spells.

While Dexterity could increase Defense and possibly influence attack speed. (not as much as putting points directly into combat speed ofc).

Intelligence is spell power and max # of enchantments, while Wisdom affects spell point cap, Mana regen, and resistance to magical damage.

Essence is max mana, and could slightly influence mana regen, spell power, and spell point cap (but not as much as points directly into Int or Wis ofc)

//

Alternatively essence could simply be Max Mana, and influence all rolls regarding your magic for the positive (ur enchantments are harder to remove, your magical attacks (damage and status effect) have a greater chance to succeed)

@tasunke: exactly. I think it would be a simple thing to add in and that the attributes should handle more than one thing which was the whole point of why have a strength stat if all it does is add to attack? Just have attack then!

I could see strength as being a requirement for using certain weapons and armor. This would solve some of the issues with a lightweight beating an expert because of equipment.

For example: The fallen discover a new alloy of Midnight and meteoric iron that creates an almost indestructible weapon able to cut through almost anything...one problem is that it is ten times denser than steel. Since most swords are between 2 lbs to 5 lbs it would mean that no normal human would have a chance at wielding it! But a troll or an ogre would be able to use a broadsword (which for them would be like a dagger since they are so much larger) to devastating effect. Or a mighty champion with a strength of 20 would be able to wield a small sword (like a gladius or epee which would be around 20 lbs) with great effort and a champion with a strength of 30 could wield a claymore made of admidnightium lol.

I don't know if adding requirements would be good or just annoying. Realism vs gameplay is a serious question as always.

@Tasunke.   What you're detailing isn't the opposite of anything I said.  It actually flow perfectly into it (as well as TyLarson's Thinking).  All the calculated stats you are takling about don't use more than 2 base attributes.   Therefore it is not a complex system you are creating.  It is actually simplifying the system.  Using less base attributes to work out more calculated stats is simplifying things, however by being simplified there are tendancies towards being able to build a character that is the ultimate character (due to the larger number of calculated stats being modified by fewer bas attributes).

Eg:  leaving Intelligence and Wisdom seperate allows you two have tow distinctly different magic builds.  One would have very VERY powerful spells, but not be able to cast them as often.  The other build would have average power spells, but be able to cast them very often.  (in this example I have not modified any other attributes except INT and WIS).

Using your model of having all the spell modifiers being based on Wisdom (having no INT score at all), would mean there is only one build now, that is, POWERFUL spells, AND casting the spells VERY OFTEN.

In a way, determining how many base attributes are available limits/expands what builds are available, and the amount of differentiation between the builds.  Think of it like this:  DIFFERENT BUILDS = NUM_ATTRIBUTES^2 - 1.     Therefore having 2 attributes only allows 3 Builds.  Having 3 attributes allows 8 different builds, 4 atributes has 15 builds (note, the formula doesn't allow no points allocated builds)

How about..

Essence = max mana + mana regen (let's say mana regen is 10% per combat turn) Maintaining global spells reserves Essence so it effectively weakens your spellcasting ability if you want to maintain a permanent Thunderstorm over an enemy city. This would nicely limit nasty global spells to being cast from the safety of your tower. So it would be either adventuring or global magical warfare but not both unless you're uber powerful. Combat mana/stamina should be separated from global mana.

Intelligence = spell research, makes learning new spells faster (let's assume Sovereign contributes to spell research when stationed in a city) Intelligence by definition should be associated with learning rather than raw power.

Wisdom = pointless, axed

Spellpower could simply be a modifier that comes from experience levels + any extra mana put into a spell. Let's say all spells would get a 5% increase in power with every experience level. 10th level Sovereign would get 50% more effective spells while a 20th level Sovereign's spells would hit twice as hard. Before any other specialization or equipment modifiers.

I agree with this suggestion wholeheartedly, and have made the suggestion before myself.

Starting equipment should be bought with gold, not valuable character points.

I was thinking of how you could make the traits more interesting and useful.

I believe Brilliant gives you +2 to Research each turn...By itself it doesn't make that much sense as you could have a stupid sovereign take it and be just as good as a genius character.

If you must keep the DnD scale then have the bonus modifier equal to (Int - 10)/2. So a Sovereign with a 14 Intelligence which is pretty decent would have a + 2 bonus or the exact same but if after some leveling could actually improve it.

I think most of the various traits should be modifiable.

Another option as I've written before is that I don't think that you should be able to modify your stats "naked" on the sovereign creation screen. All stat modifiers should be from traits that you pick both from a roleplaying point of view and to encourage more variation in characters as the traits could have little extra modifiers. If you're' brilliant' when your intelligence is 13 what are you when your int is 23?

Use a hundred points: (attributes cost 5)

Genius: +3 Int and double the mod bonus for other traits. Genius can take many forms. 25 points.

Scientist: +2 Int and for each spell in a school you learn you get (Int - 10)% bonus to learning the next one. So starting out you'd get little advantage but in the end game you could learn spells in half the time because of your systematic approach to understanding magic. 20 points

Daring: +2 strength, + 2 dex, + 2 con. Use your Dex Mod (dex-10) as a percentage chance to bypass defensive bonuses. 40 points.

Stupid: - X Int with X providing 4 extra build points.

Wealthy: Starting Sovereigns have 500 gildar but those of Wealthy background can add 500 gildar per 10 build points. (This would be the only way to purchase rare items before game start such as demon swords). So you could spend 20 build points to start with 1500 gildar and have a huge advantage in the early game but pay greatly in the late game.

Mercantile: Mental traits + 1. Civilization gains additional gildar based on mental traits of sovereign. Int, Wis, and Cha all provide obvious routes to making money as a smart merchant can plan better, a wise merchant knows when to hold 'em, and a likeable merchant makes more contacts. So take each att and subtract 10 to get to bonus. Int 13, wis 12, cha 13 with this trait would provide 8 extra gildar a turn. 30 points.

Mighty: +3 Strength + 2 Con. Can wield two handed weapons in one hand allowing use of a shield or if using both hands gain a + (str-10) bonus to damage. 40 points

Curious: +1 Int. Gain a +int bonus% chance of finding goodie huts or finding better stuff lying around. 10 points

Fire Mage: + 1 Strength. Access to fire spells. 10 points

Summoner: +1 Intelligence, +1 cha. Access to the school of summoning. 20 points

Blacksmith: +2 Strength, + 2 Con, + 1 Int. X Discount on all equipment purchases at character creation and from merchants in your cities to mimic that you crafted your own equipment at cost. 40 points.

Artist: + 2 Cha. 1/2 cha bonus to prestige and cities can build art galleries. 20 points.

So in the end you'd have your profession, your major talents and personality traits, and then an equipment purchase screen in which you spend gildar rather than build points. This way of character creation gives a lot of variety compared to just sinking points into stats, enhances the roleplay as you could have quests that only pop up for those with that trait (Only the 'Mightiest' can challenge a giant to a drinking contest), and you can have a lot of different builds that have subtle differences and advantages in the late game or in the early game.

I've been playing the new build (Beta 3A?)  for a bit now, they have made some changes for the good.  The first one is Bigger increase in Stats for Sov lvl ups!  They've also changed somethings, like Wisdom = max unspent spell points for learning spells.  Which if you think about it makes sense using the background lore of Elemental.  The spells aren't really being "leearnt", they are being "rediscovered" which is something "Wise" people do, not necessarily "Intelligent".  So purely based on fitting in with the Lore of Elemental, I wouldn't go down your Int for spell learning path.

They've partly implemented an enchantment system (which includes global persistant spells), which looks like it should be a better system when balanced and is working to limit the number of Global spells any one sovereign can have in effect.  Mainly it shuold be better because it is simpler to understand by a long shot.  Secondly, we want magic being an exaggerated proliferation in this game!!!  (well i do anyway :))  Linking Tactical (combat) magic to Srategic (global) magic would have the opposite effect.

I really mean no offense here, but I am totally against your spellpower being a function of levels....  It reduces the types of builds you can create with a Sov.  Using Int to decide a the power of spells cast allows for you to chose to cast REALLY powerful spells, or weak spells, but wield a massive sword.  Linking Spellpower to levels I think you would find things become more boring with designing your sovereign each level up, AND the only way to make a good sovereign would be to beef his Essence (max man) and Combat skills (because spellpower will automatically increase).  boring......

Oh and at the moment, I can't see what the hell effects mana regen!!!!  There's a bug posted about it.  Basically with a custom Sov, I had no mana regen.  I like your idea Hound of making mana regen a 10% function of Essence.  Simple, straight forward, Intuitive.

While playing with 3A I thought this thread was worth revisiting.  It is quite frankly not very intuitive to have many statistics that round off to the tenth decimal place, particularly when it is rounded to a whole number in some screens (e.g. Food at the top), or the actual calculation's impact is rounded off to the hundredth decimal place (e.g. +0.25 for weapon speed) in other game areas.  It shouldn't take much time to revamp the numbering system for attributes, combat speed, etc. etc. to WHOLE NUMBERS.  There is nothing wrong with a "Base 50 Strength" and a Strong Guy with "75 Strength" if it is explained.  This entire D&D framework and decimal point advancements are just too much convoluted mathematics that detracts from the core game.