Only One Garden?

from Elemental Forums

Alright I have done my damnedest to figure this one out and have pretty much stopped beta'ing in frustration. But when I build a city it is only allowing a single garden. Now outside the obvious level up civ tech to an unreasonable level to refine farming enough times or having to build where I can build a farm.

How the hell do you get a city past level 2 with only being able to build a single garden. Am I missing a patently obvious thing like an idiot or is that the way it is set up atm. And if the latter is that going to stay that way. Because I won't lie if I have to spend a load of turns at the beggining of the game hunting around for a fertile land square so I can drop my first city, That is kinda a gamebreaker for me.

elemental
9,442 views 12 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

You need to find food resources.  But I think we'll need to make this more obvious.

The land you revived is good enough to live on but it's too marginal still to produce a lot of food.

 

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Hi XeronX.

It's a balance, but your food output and city size is also a factor, with housing. If you don't have enough housing you will stay stuck at 10.

You can also learn tech's that will enhance your food options, such as Apiarys for the bee hives, and other stuff for Wild Game, and the actual Farming of Fertile land.

You can also go to my blog, and watch my video's on how I got cities larger.

http://gorstagg.wordpress.com/

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

  Alright cool ty Froggy. So it is set up that way., I'll have to admit I am sure I am a big fan of that (like I said that could be gamebreaking for me personally) but I won't sit here a scream that you are all wrong lol. But the idea of having to hunt around beyodg mabey the first 4 turns for an ideal city location irks me. It just really goes against my ingrained nature of not losing time on my cities. Even in MoM or Civ games if it took me more than 5 turns to drop a city I generally started over. I just considered the lost time to valuable to sacrifice due to a fluke of random map generation. and while alot of people will probably say 5 turns doesn't mean much. Anybody who really plays this genre knows that these games are generally won or lost in the first 100 turns.

  May I ask though when magic does get implemented are there plans to allow the use of magic to create more arable land for farming. I think that is a work a round I could deal with as it will allow me to at least get a city started and then know that shortly I will be able to improve it.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

XeronX: Just remember, in your build, magic and adventure and diplomacy are disabled.  There are alternatives to hunting around for fertile food.

Also, in Elemental, dropping a city isn't necessarily the best idea. The game is about your character, not your cities.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Gorstagg, reply 2
Hi XeronX.

It's a balance, but your food output and city size is also a factor, with housing. If you don't have enough housing you will stay stuck at 10.

You can also learn tech's that will enhance your food options, such as Apiarys for the bee hives, and other stuff for Wild Game, and the actual Farming of Fertile land.

You can also go to my blog, and watch my video's on how I got cities larger.

http://gorstagg.wordpress.com/


End of Gorstagg's quote

LOL ty Gorstagg, but yeah I know. Been here since beta 1, the single garden is a new change that has just caught me by surprise and not really liking it . But as I said above i just can't see any good reason not to even not get a city started immediately. It is all about the exponetial growth curve. If you start a city on turn 30 while your opponent started a city on turn 2, you should lose. At least if your opponent doesn't suck so bad that you can come back from a deficit like that.

So the idea of having to spend 10 or possible 20 turns hunting down an ideal start city spot is just so counter intuitive to me that I am having a hard time wrapping my little brain around it.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

ha ha XeronX, you should realize then, that the fact that your having a hard time wrapping your brain around it is a GOOD thing!  that means that your not playing the old tried and true and should offer you an interesting and different take.  i have to admit that it has taken me aback as well, but i see that they are trying to create a game that will transcend current and past gameplay styles.

i personally think that once the entire puzzle has been put together, we will see an amazing picture!

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 4
XeronX: Just remember, in your build, magic and adventure and diplomacy are disabled.  There are alternatives to hunting around for fertile food.

Also, in Elemental, dropping a city isn't necessarily the best idea. The game is about your character, not your cities.
End of Frogboy's quote

  Well I am willing to take it on faith that will be the case come release. But a little more explanation as to why would be greatly appreciated.

   From where I sit and my experience so far. You really lose nothing from founding the first city (with the possible exception of some gildar). But in the long run you lose a tremendous amount from not. Let me elaborate on this point.

What you lose from NOT founding a city immediately or close to that.

While you can recruit heroes that add gildar and research. You will fall behind to those players who not only have heroes but also buildings in resource production and research.

You don't have access to the store and considering the starting equiptment of most heroes, even the adventuring ones compared to the general level of nasty's running around. I have found starting adventures to be a tad bit wanting.

You lose access to being able to train troops. And mabey I am wrong but I have found 5-10 trained peasents to be a much more comforting companions in my battles than adventuring heroes. Combined with heroes also this makes for a force I feel can actually handle whats out there. But missing either side and I feel a bit underpowered.

 

Now I know we haven't really seen much of adventuring and almost nothing of diplomacy or magic. And if you can pull off the balance then it would be truly a herculean feat. And I will be the first to bow at your feet as the ultimate developers. But as it stands now I can only base my assumptions and critiques of your predeccesors in the genre and my experiences in Beta 1 and 2. So again I am just having a hard time wrapping my litle brain around how you intend to pull off this miracle.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree with XeronX that a player placing a fast city is at an tremendous advantage over a player not placing a fast city.  However, I don't necessarily think that this means that gardens, or the lack thereof, are the problem.  In fact my belief is that if placing an early city is such a good play, then I believe the guy who does seek out an ideal starting location _should_ be rewarded by being able to build a superior city.

In any case, like any Stardock game, I wouldn't be surprised if there are options when creating a map.  One of them could be the frequency of food resources occurring.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

While you can recruit heroes that add gildar and research. You will fall behind to those players who not only have heroes but also buildings in resource production and research.
End of quote

If heroes can upgrade there skills on level up then a hero could generate more research than an entire city.


You don't have access to the store and considering the starting equiptment of most heroes, even the adventuring ones compared to the general level of nasty's running around. I have found starting adventures to be a tad bit wanting.
End of quote

Maybe inns could give you quests OR let you buy new items. Or a new tile where you can purchases things ?


You lose access to being able to train troops. And mabey I am wrong but I have found 5-10 trained peasents to be a much more comforting companions in my battles than adventuring heroes. Combined with heroes also this makes for a force I feel can actually handle whats out there. But missing either side and I feel a bit underpowered.
End of quote

With magic you can summon powerful units. The only problem is shards. There need to be a "pioneer" spell that would let you cap shards you encounter and spell to protect them (because you don't have any army).

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

While you can recruit heroes that add gildar and research. You will fall behind to those players who not only have heroes but also buildings in resource production and research.
End of quote

A level 1 city can at best, produce 1 gold and 1 research per turn. Merchant produce 2 gold per turn and inventor 2 research. That may be useful to grab fastly some useful low level tech. And it will be some times before a new found city can compete with such output. Now, with the Capitar and their current tutor unit, this is another thing ;)

The first city is free. So it may be a nice idea to do some research in order get a way to improve your food output BEFORE founding a city ;)

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting vieuxchat, reply 9

While you can recruit heroes that add gildar and research. You will fall behind to those players who not only have heroes but also buildings in resource production and research.


If heroes can upgrade there skills on level up then a hero could generate more research than an entire city.
End of vieuxchat's quote

I hope not. I find the research heroes much to strong as they are atm.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 4
XeronX: Just remember, in your build, magic and adventure and diplomacy are disabled.  There are alternatives to hunting around for fertile food.
End of Frogboy's quote

Good to hear, because I don't really like the newest build with regard to the eco/food changes.