[Beta2A][Pacing/Balance] Civilization tree a MUST at game start?

from Elemental Forums
(I put this on Qt3 as well)
It seems to me like the balance with Warfare vs Civilization is a little skewed, in that if you start a game and focus immediately on Warfare you can't do much with the newly learned upgrades because you have no resources to put together, having neglected the Civilization Tree.

On the other hand, if you START with the Civilization tree you'll have more resources available at the same point in the game, so when you swich gears to research Warfare you're going to find yourself able to use the warfare unlocks almost immediately - and faster than the player who started with Warfare.

I'm not sure what could be done about it though - this is the way it should work, but it does feel like the early game Civilization unlocks are much more important because they contain what your cities need to thrive. Maybe (MoM style) there could be more default buildings to build from without having to "learn" them? Or maybe, since the Civilization tree is so important to EVERY player/play style (I assume), the research in that tree should be a bit cheaper than the rest of the games research?

Has anyone else noticed this or was it just the game I played, which might have been a fluke?
5,417 views 14 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I'll agree, especially since research structures end up in the civilization tree.  Civilization research at this point seems far superior.  I do think that a certain core of research should just plain be available - houses, etc.

Maybe we'll see some alternatives when the other tech trees come up?

My only other thought is to have convergent research at points.  For example, maybe you can get Mining through Military research, since that's required for arms, or through Civ research.  Maybe there could be alternative structures that are more specialized, like some form of military base that can house a certain number of people based on the number of troops you have stationed there (soldiers' families, essentially).

Not sure how well that would work or even if it could be done at this point.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

It is a matter of opportunity. If you spend too much time going for say beekeeping and schools, you can't build a good war machine. The key is moderation.

Unless you are lucky enough to get the four man adventurer party. In that case you don't need any warfare tech.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 2
It is a matter of opportunity. If you spend too much time going for say beekeeping and schools, you can't build a good war machine. The key is moderation.

Unless you are lucky enough to get the four man adventurer party. In that case you don't need any warfare tech.
End of seanw3's quote

 

The key seems to always be to start leveling up Civ right away, and then switch to Warfare.  My issue is there is no other way to start, at least between the two and in Beta 2A.  However, even with the other research paths, you're always going to need to build up your towns, not build up your towns OR do other things.  I maintain that at least some buildings/concepts you should not need to research, but rather "tech up" to by building their requirements.  Or something like that.

I have had the four man adventure party, they died pretty easy and had almost no equipment (3 of them had no weapons, and none of them were particularly interesting).  Having them, I decided to go Warfare to equip them, only to find I had no gold with which to buy anything for them, because my towns were super low end, I presume.  I could be playing wrong though, I freely admit my Elemental skill/knowledge is seriously behind.  :)

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I think it must be skill issues. I have a really good source of money from getting spears in the hands of my heroes and looking for rat killing quests which give me 400+ gildar. Also getting some free level ups from killing spell heroes and farmers is an easy way to build a fighting force. Just split up and go for all the gooies on the map. With a little micromanagement you can bring all those items back to your city and sell them for some quick gildar. That is usually enough money to tech up to shortsword and really start to pwn. Then get some archers and you are set until you can get civ to level 20 or so. Plus, since there isn't really anyone attacking you, much of this is moot unless you play online against me.

I don't understand your problem with needing to begin at a few civ techs. We are rebuilding a nation and that takes relearning some basic civic concepts. War refinement is secondary only because we already have some bsic weapons left over from the big C. If you really want swords then go for the dragon bones, they seem to have more weapons. Also, get the market as quick as you can!

:ninja:  

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

"Also, get the market as quick as you can!"
End of quote

And this is what we want to avoid. The "must have quickly" in any Build order...

How many AI's do you select seanw3? I get attacked quite a bit but it may be just that I Piss Off the AI by attacking them rather early just to see the AI react. ;)

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 5

"Also, get the market as quick as you can!"


And this is what we want to avoid. The "must have quickly" in any Build order...
End of John_Hughes's quote

Why is this something to be avoided? There are always going to be bad choices available including "Do nothing and hit the turn button until an NPC gobbles you up like trail mix." *shrug* Any game with a tech tree is going to have trees that come into play in different priorities, it's the nature of the beast, not a design flaw.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

"Why is this something to be avoided?"
End of quote

Because it hand-cuffs players after word gets out that you "must have" it.

And "No!" it doesn't have to be that way at all.

Balance is the Art of flexibilty without hand-cuffing everyone into a certain start build and should absolutely be avoided where possible.

 

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Andorfiend, reply 6

John_Hughes said:
"Also, get the market as quick as you can!"


And this is what we want to avoid. The "must have quickly" in any Build order...
End of Andorfiend's quote


Why is this something to be avoided? There are always going to be bad choices available including "Do nothing and hit the turn button until an NPC gobbles you up like trail mix." *shrug* Any game with a tech tree is going to have trees that come into play in different priorities, it's the nature of the beast, not a design flaw.
End of quote
"Must have quickly" is a sign of imbalance.  Basically, choice is good.  In strategy games hard choices are good.  When there's an easy choice that means that choice is over-powered and/or the alternate choices are underpowered.

There should be no intrinsic bad choices.  Yes, there should be bad choices, but situational -- in situation X it's bad to build a market, or bad to not build a market.  Building a market being the best choice in all situations is not desirable, it's bad game design.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

You guys are missing the nature of balance in Elemental. Rushing to the advanced civic,  administration means not getting any magic, adventure, diplomacy, or warfare four about five to seven techs. It works in this build, but in the final version there will probably be so many other choices that this strategy only works for a merchant player. We will all want it in the mid game, but few will really need it if the are adventuring and getting money that way. I was merely showing him how to game this build and make things flow a little better. Also, this four tile option is a logical step up from the regular merchant and I really don't see a way around it.

FYI: I play on the hardest difficulty with all players. (\B):vulcan:(\B)

 

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nick-Danger, reply 8



There should be no intrinsic bad choices.  Yes, there should be bad choices, but situational -- in situation X it's bad to build a market, or bad to not build a market.  Building a market being the best choice in all situations is not desirable, it's bad game design.
End of Nick-Danger's quote

I'm not in the beta and don't have the cash to buy my way in, so I don't know the specifics, but in general...

It's not bad to present early options in a tech tree which are either poor choices or highly situational. That this essentially means you have 'one right way' early in the game which branches out into a richer choice tree down the road is, yes, something that means early game play is constrained by your gamer min-max instincts. Be glad, most games just strip out the newb trap options and call it 'simplifying' or 'reaching out to a broader market.'

Also, right now don't you have access to only two out of five tech trees? I could be wrong but complaining about a lack of choice between A and D when B,C and E are all still under wraps is a bit premature.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Andorfiend, reply 10
It's not bad to present early options in a tech tree which are either poor choices or highly situational.
End of Andorfiend's quote
Maybe I'm missing something here in what you're saying, but these are 2 vastly different things.

"highly situational" is good -- for example if you're taking the warfare route then X is a good choice, but not Y.  If you're going the diplomatic route then Y is a good choice but not X.  That's a situational best-choice, and thus it's good game design.

What I'm trying to avoid is X always being better than Y for all possible strategies&tactics -- that's no choice and thus bad game design.

That this essentially means you have 'one right way' early in the game...
End of quote
This presents no real choice. 

How can player skill show if there's a no-brainer best choice in all early game situations?

Also, right now don't you have access to only two out of five tech trees? I could be wrong but complaining about a lack of choice between A and D when B,C and E are all still under wraps is a bit premature.
End of quote
I'm not complaining about anything, let alone a lack of choice -- in fact you have it backwards as your "...'one right way' early in the game..." is what gives a lack of choice and I oppose that.

I'm advocating for there being no best choice for all situations, which increases the number of choices and lets player skill show.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

I think some of these questions/concerns are addressed in the posting for the upcoming release of Beta 2-B

https://forums.elementalgame.com/385195

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

I would hold off on this until we learn just what the Adventuring / Magic trees do exactly. You could make enough money from Adventure techs that not having early markets doesn't matter... you could be able to create research buildings with magic. We don't know yet.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

GET MARKET ASAP. Why we want to avoid thet? So that we dont read on gamesfaqs.com perfect path to gain strong efficent town.

It will be nice to design uniq path for developing towns acording to their location