[0.803][Suggestion] Refugee Camps

They don't require any food or research.

But they do require 4 plot spaces, which is what Sherekhaan is talking about. Nobody's going to build these things because of it, even if they were free, except if there wasn't going to be anything else to build in those slots ever.

But they do become a waste of space after a very short period of time.  You know what would be good?  If they doubled the number of people "slums" provide when you build them over the camp!  That way refugee camps would be a legitimate place to put a city (and it would also enhance slums, which are significantly underpowered in terms of the population they provide at the moment).

Currently, a city with refugee camp, garden, and house can hit level 3 without anything else.  No research needed, so you can go spend your research somewhere else (like warfare).

I'd almost consider it a short-term resource, in that you settle next to them if you plan to go early not-civ to suit your early population needs.

I agree with lwarmonger. Rather than provide that short-run benefit, they should also have a longer-term plus. Providing a bonus for slums would make these negative prestige places much more attractive.

I'm pretty sure that houses and gardens both require civ techs, and why the hell do you want a level 3 city that can only build huts?

In the current build you have basic gardens and huts without civ techs.  That might change, but that's the current reality.  Researching the tech that says it unlocks gardens actually gives +1 Food.

Only huts is good enough, if the goal is to grow pop and then turn it very quickly into soldiers.

I can see the point about the usefulness in the early game, since it looks like you will need basic harvesting tech in the future to build gardens (currently it shows in the tech tree that harvesting provides access to gardens). Still, it means if you don't build right next to one they are still quite useless.

I have a question, does a city's population cap go up when it levels from lvl 1 to lvl 2? I noticed I made a city with a refugee camp and no huts and with those two my pop cap was supposed to be at 50, but when it leveled my cap was at 90. I thought for a second that "Hey the refugee camp provides extra 40 pop every time the city grows, that doesnt make it so horrible" but then I thought it might just be that the pop cap "naturally" goes up when the city changes level (if someone could clarify this it would be great :D).

So, my idea is (if it doesnt work this way atm) to increase the pop cap by 40 every time a city levels to maybe a max of 160 at lvl 4 (level 1 provides 40 pop cap then lvl 2 provides 80 etc). Would still be less pop than a slum but would gradually get it as city improved and would be balanced since 1 slot you can make houses and villas which give around 72? pop and can be further improved with techs. I think this would keep its early game usefulness and give it some usefulness past that.

I will test refugee camps tomorrow to see if this works.

Plant a city, build a mill (costs 10 gold, provides 2 materials) and a workshop (costs 10 gold, provides 1 materials), both can be immediately built.  When you get 2 materials build a garden.  The garden provides 2 food which allows a hut.

The value of refugee camps is that for only 5 materials and without building anything else -- no farm, no huts, no nuthin -- you can get to 90 pop as the pic shows:

[for some reason that game started me with 25 materials, not sure why, if no materials at start then put in the mill and workshop for the materials] 

90 pop is city rank 2, and almost rank 3 (100 pop).  Add the garden and hut and you're at city rank 3.

The question isn't "why the hell do you want a level 3 city that can only build huts?" but "what can you do with these people that are free for only 5 materials and waiting for them to arrive?"

Note that the refugee camp description says it adds 40 pop, but in effect it adds 65 -- without it the city will reach 25 pop 'sans huts', with it it'll reach 90.  The 'extra' 25 pop is because the camp gets the city to rank 2 and pop then increases to 50 'sans huts', accounting for the 'extra' 25 pop.  This increases the value of camps.

You can at the moment, but the tech tree is at odds with that. It's like palaces. it shows you need administration to build one, but you can build it straight away. Likewise Harvesting shows it provides gardens, but you can build them straight away.

Altar (as I see by your red color) start with 25 materials. Some kind of racial bonus I presume. It's an interesting bonus given the jump-start it gives a city-builder...

I think refugee camps are fine as they are currently, as they do allow people that lack fertile land to get off to a nice start. Not every resource needs to be long term. Some resources are late-game, some are early-game, others matter the whole way through.

My statement was a bit of an exageration, I'm aware that you can build merchant quarters and libraries (or whatever the level 1 version of that costs), along with a temple (and a palace I think), but you can already build all that right away. The point is you gain little from having 20 spaces available all of which can build a grand total of jack crap. The reality is a farm in that same location would provide a much higher population cap, thus it is simply 'worse' than other improvements. Having something that provides additional percentage prestige or science or iron are all 'different' not necessarily better or worse. I mean wow.. whoopee, I save like 10 production from building two huts. You don't actually need a city at level 3 until you've researched some civ techs. Maybe I'll be proven differently when the other tech trees roll in, but I'm skeptical.

The suggestion to have it give +40 per city level wasn't too bad. I 'might' actually build it then. Honestly I don't see why it increases just the 'cap' either, it should give you the population straight away. The refugees are already there if I understand correctly.

Going from a lore approach, it would be better if building a city on or irhgt next to a refugee camp to start at a level higher or something, seeing that there already are people who make a living there.

EDIT: It would also mean that it is better in the late since it supports people without using space, but will in turn have less special resources. Very useful if you are going for a fast expand, less so if you want all those resources.

Mayby an upgrade option for buildings will be sufficent? You can always discover them or find plans in quest location

I want to build room for me 12 sisters on the roof

Wait, people are actually using up ALL their building slots? I usually get to city level 5 and have 60 left over and only villas / estates left to build. That's with full research, too.

Umm... are you cheating Autarkhos? I've never had more than 12 to spare. Or do I suck or something?

I think gardens are supposed to be built with no tech and harvesting just increases yield to 3 food.  If so then that seems to be working as intended (tho we won't know til release), but your point about palaces is a good one, and as you say the current tech tree needs work and we won't know what'll be what for a few more builds.

[4, right?  ]

Just to clarify. You get "Huts and Gardens" without Tech. You do not get "Farms" without Tech.

What I'd like to see is an increase in population growth from the refugee camps. Think of it as the family of those initially displaced coming to join the town later. This wouldn't have to be much to add up over time and give more reason to add one to a town that is already level three or higher, also it seems thematically sound. 

I know I recently started a town next to some resources, and then noticed I was within range of building out to two refugee camps. By the time I reached them I would have had that town at level three or higher, so it didn't really seem worth it to do so.