[Gameplay]Why Pioneer's should build fully functioning outposts

from Elemental Forums

Currently Pioneer outposts provide half the resources a town tile of that type would. I think given the cost and vulnerability of Pioneering, that the Outpost should give equal or more.

 

Let me explain a little background. In games like Civ4 having access to one tile's resources gives you empire-wide access to the resource. In Elemental the closest thing to this would be Shards, of course Outposts only give a half shard. Similarly, gold enhancing tiles are unattractive to Outpost because the sunk cost of a Pioneer and the Outpost would make it a rare tile indeed that would not be better served being part of a city somehow. In all these situations, the resources put towards building an Outpost would be better served going towards either a city in the area of the target tile, or towards alternative methods of acquiring the needed resource.

 

Beyond simple "fairness" issues, current balance puts cities far ahead of Outposts, even as far as single resource gatherers in the middle of nowhere. You can easily build a city, plop down a hut, level city to two, build whatever harvesting building you needed, and then make the city produce Merchants or Gardens or what have you. After a high initial investment, the city pays dividends that the Outpost - which is also quite expensive (not to mention risky) to invest in - cannot approach.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the moment the only real helpful (cost-efficient) Outpost is on a Food producing tile, in that Food immediately adds to your food pool as opposed to a gold mine or lumber mill which produce a stream of resources over many turns. An immediate return on investment. Perhaps Pioneers would be too good at being a kingdom's main food source, but any kingdom relying on Outpost food would be absolutely crippled by any sort of pillaging or sieges. I think the game would be better off with a fewer number of quality, interesting cities, which useful Outposts would provide. It would also serve to give players the choice: Be a Kingdom focused on quality, protected towns or be a Kingdom focused on efficient use of resources which lie beyond the safety of city walls.

 

As of current balance (major changes could easily render this entire post obsolete), either Outposts should produce full output or Pioneers should have a significant price reduction.

10,273 views 11 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

A possible tweak to outposts is to have the produce resources, but have to carry them back to the city before they're added to the pool.  Obviously this means you can't pioneer non-stream resources (like food).  This would be an automatic route, like the caravans, and produce a road, as the caravans do.  This will lead to more roads, but gives a good graphical representation of where resources are going.

Naturally, we would need to figure out a good low-resource way for outposts to check which city they should ship their resources to.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sareln, reply 1
A possible tweak to outposts is to have the produce resources, but have to carry them back to the city before they're added to the pool.  Obviously this means you can't pioneer non-stream resources (like food).  This would be an automatic route, like the caravans, and produce a road, as the caravans do.  This will lead to more roads, but gives a good graphical representation of where resources are going.

Naturally, we would need to figure out a good low-resource way for outposts to check which city they should ship their resources to.
End of Sareln's quote

yeah i like this idea.  the way i would handle it is this.

if a pioneer builds on say a fertile land tile.  without ANY caravans at all you still get what is in the game now, i think that is half of the resource production.

however, if you had a caravan going back and forth to the tile(like it was a mini settlement) then you would get the half it produces plus whatever the caravan could carry as well.  maybe the caravans would be upgradable, or better yet DESIGNABLE so as to carry more, or perhaps have multiple caravans transporting goods.

Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

I view it best as this...

  • Pioneer builds a stockpile somewhere near resouce(s)
  • Pioneer goes to one resource or another and starts to harvest that resource.
  • Pioneer brings the resource back to the stockpile.
  • Every so often a caravan with all of the goods leaves the stockpile for the nearest city.
  • Upon arriving (safely) the caravan unloads the goods
  • To show the market being stimulated, you get a small good boost when a caravan returns successfully.

This revolves around building an initial outpost/stockpile and assigning pioneers to work out of it. If I have five pioneers working an outpost near two or three places, then they will work in unison and produce goods to send back to me. Each pioneer will have an output of less-but-cumulative, maybe 1/2 each or 1/3 each. That way, it makes sense (one pioneer alone won't be producing iron ore as quickly as the team of miners I have set up) you gain a small resource-oriented base of operations you absolutely have to protect, and you aren't restricted to a city.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Another option would be to enhance them in a way similar to starbases from galciv... multiple pioneers establish walls and defences, caravans boost production up to city levels and you can station troops there.

I think the problem is that it would be much faster to use pioneers than city building for any uncontested regions so you can't just boost production to pioneers or rushing pioneers would become overwhelming. Caravans at least take time, having them upgrade over 'n' turns based on outpost level could work... 1 pioneer will upgrade every 50 turns from 1/4 production to 1/3 to 1/2 to 1/1 an outpost level 3 would upgrade every 20 turns and reach a max of 2/1... but each level requiring greater levels of research.

Pioneer only resources would be interesting... something too dangerous to build a city adjacent to (volcano tiles for the kingdom, 'ents/fairy grove' for the fallen) You want to promote battles over certain resources by making them more vulnerable and reduce wars started over a tiny resource. (Especially if the pioneer and city bonus for each race made holding that spot desirable... the kingdom wants to build an outpost on the volcano for a magic bonus and res extraction and the fallen want to build a city for troop bonuses and magic gains and a unique building)

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Stmorpheus, reply 2


however, if you had a caravan going back and forth to the tile(like it was a mini settlement) then you would get the half it produces plus whatever the caravan could carry as well.  maybe the caravans would be upgradable, or better yet DESIGNABLE so as to carry more, or perhaps have multiple caravans transporting goods.
End of Stmorpheus's quote

This. 

Just have each caravan increase the productivity of the outpost by X% (say 10% or 25% for simplicity's sake).  You create a caravan at the nearest city, send it to the outpost and it establishes a trade route just like it was linking two cities.  But now, to maintain that extra production you have to protect that supply line. 

Caravans, as a technology, are saying that your society has developed the ability to move large quantities of goods, so using that as the mechanism for increasing outpost production makes sense (you're at 50% to begin with because, I assume, you're not directly connected to the city and in a remote location).  Creating caravans, and defending the trade routes, allows players to get more out of an outpost, but only if they're willing to pay the opportunity cost (building the caravan) and the maintenance cost (protecting it). 

Making it take more than one caravan makes it so that upgrading every outpost to 100% isn't just an obvious move.  If it takes 2 or 5 or 10 caravans your need/desire for that extra production matters, rather than just making the caravan a routine part of creating an outpost. 

Similarly, if your nearest city is small and not very productive, but you wanted to get the extra production right away, you could create the caravan from a different, far off, city with the added downside of having a longer supply route to protect. 

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

yeah, i like it.  the only downside i see is slowing the game down from a hardware prospective.  if you have 30 or so caravans moving around and so does everybody else, thats alot of units to move each turn for the CPU.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

How about this, a pioneer builds a resource outpost. The outpost then generates a caravan that takes the resource to the nearest city. There it is added to the resource pool. Over time, a road would be generated between the outpost and city.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting TKPNZ, reply 7
How about this, a pioneer builds a resource outpost. The outpost then generates a caravan that takes the resource to the nearest city. There it is added to the resource pool. Over time, a road would be generated between the outpost and city.
End of TKPNZ's quote

 

The problem with this approach (as opposed to having to generate multiple caravans at a city and sending them to the outpost) is that there is no decision behind it.  You will ALWAYS use the caravan and just get the 100% outpost production.  I think the devs want outposts at less than 100% to simulate the remoteness and the difficulty involved in moving large quantities of materials over distance in a medieval society.  

Having to generate the caravans yourself and send them to the outpost in order to increase its productivity beyond 50% means that the player is will to commit time and resources to getting the extra production and maintaining it (through protecting the new trade route).  It's a strategic decision at that point rather than an automatic one.  

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Kantok: Maybe the efficiency of a resource caravan could be determined by technology level; that would remove the need for multiple caravans. You would need to maintain control of the outpost, and insure that the road is clear of monsters and bandits, so the caravan can get to the city and add its cargo to the resource pool.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting TKPNZ, reply 9
Kantok: Maybe the efficiency of a resource caravan could be determined by technology level; that would remove the need for multiple caravans. You would need to maintain control of the outpost, and insure that the road is clear of monsters and bandits, so the caravan can get to the city and add its cargo to the resource pool.
End of TKPNZ's quote

I understand your argument and why people like the idea of tying tech level to outposts, I just don't like the idea that there is no investment or opportunity cost.  In you way, as your empire grows and tech level increases you will max out every resource outpost automatically just because it is trivial to do so. There is no barrier to entry or investment required.  All that it requires is maintenance cost (protecting the route) which, in theory, as your empire grows you'll be doing anyway.  

I think that upgrading outposts from 50% to 100% works best if it isn't an automatic choice.  Say you have 4 ore mines attached to cities, but have 3 others within the "heart" of your empire (the part most well guarded).  Throwing a pioneer on them and just letting caravans and tech research up them to 100% is a no brainer, because the protection for the routes is already there so the extra production doesn't cost you anything.  You're decent tech level gets you the extra 50%.  So essentially you're getting (in this example) the extra 150% metal production for nothing.  Your society has reached a point where there is zero cost (aside from the trivial pioneer) associated with getting all the production possible.  

If you have to create and send multiple caravans, then there is an entry cost to go along with the maintenance cost (protection).  Your need of that extra 150% production (in the example above) matters because it isn't free.  If you're raking in more metal than you can use from the 4 ore mines directly attached to your city and the three pioneers you just sent out, you probably wouldn't upgrade your mines because it takes money, resources, and most importantly, build queue time.  Whether or not to upgrade outposts is now a strategic choice, because you have to spend real resources specifically on it (as opposed to it just being something that happens in passing via tech level).  And now upgraded outposts (with their fancy, expensive supply routes) are even more important to protect and/or attack because they are very much a non-trivial cost.  Their loss, not just the production but the investment they represent, is a big deal now.  In the example above, their loss isn't huge.  Just secure the area again and send out another pioneer and you're back in business.    

You'll probably still reach a point very late game where upgrading those outposts is largely trivial because caravan production is so fast and cheap (Relative to your empire's economy), but that point will arrive much later in the game, making upgradeable outposts a actual decision through a much greater period of gameplay.  And largely trivial isn't the same thing and a fire and forget pioneer (because tech level handles the rest).  

 

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

How about having an existing Caravan be selectable and adding a new destination node to its route between the 2 cities it began with.

I would like to see Caravans have the ability to be Built, then directed to more than one source. That way I could tell Caravan 1 to got to Town A, then fill up and keep going on to Town B, then Outpost A, then back to Town A, completing a full circuit before repeating said circuit.

Then I decide how many Caravans I deem necessary to maximize that particular circuit. I could even expand that circuit with more nodes as more Outposts were created.