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Multiplayer: the Stardock pitfall

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Multiplayer: the Stardock pitfall

from Elemental Forums

This thread attempts to adress one issue that I constantly notice with any title that Stardock is affiliated with. It is merely an observation, and I may very well have the wrong idea here. If so, then please point this out to me. I mean no offense whatsoever, I just want this thread to be about sharing experiences to see what others feel about this issue that bothers me a lot.

Basically what I notice with Stardock titles - and for this purpose Demigod and Sins of a Solar Empire (SoaSE) are stardock titles too - is that the multiplayer is always as dead as a doornail. In Demigod this was mostly due to poor matchmaking. The logging on and playing worked well for a very brief period, after that it fell flat and you had to join custom games in order to play online. In these custom games your opponents were a typical group of smurfs stomping the opponents. Unless you went through the trouble of organising a matchup, the multiplayer of demigod was very very poor.

The same is true with SoaSE. There the multiplayer was killed due to there being pretty much only one viable strategy. As of now the multiplayer of that game is very very poor, while the AI offers very little of a challenge. I only recently bought the game and at first I was excited about the potential the game offers, but then when I started to see the flaws of the game I was put off by it. Basically the AI in SoaSE is so poor that it barely poses any challenge to speak of. If the multiplayer at least posed a good challenge... But no, there is nothing interesting to see in multiplayer.

GalCiv2 otoh was really brilliant, although I really did not care for the amount of weapons and armors one may unlock with teching, because it was tedious to update ships. Also there were far too many generic techs to plow through. Otoh the AI there was decent as far as I could tell, and the AI role-played very well in order to make the galaxy seem alive. I liked that game, safe for the tech tree that was not presented very well imo. I have no idea if that game was at all good in multiplayer because these games are best played when roleplaying - at least that is how I feel about it.

So maybe adressing the multiplayer part was not entirely fair of me since I have no clue in how far stardock is responsible for this, but if this thread is good for one thing it is this: I find that most stardock titles are really shining with potential, up to the point that they are amongst the best games of all times. Each and every title from SD that I know has this feel where it is almost overflowing with class. All these games also have a bog flaw though, one that typically is so major that it kills the experience for me.

Does any one else feel like this? If so, what can be done about it? Care to share your opinions on the subject? I just do not want to see Emelental fall prone to the same faults that some of the other brilliant games mentioned here have. They all have this flaw that kills all the fun that is to be had with these titles, at least for me. GalCiv2 is the exception, that game is good, althoughthe poor presentation makes it a mediocre game for me.

21,750 views 35 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 25
Well I think the issue is that multiplayer should be done right. Either don't do it or do it right. 

If you want to know who does multiplayer right it's Blizzard. Any of you in the Starcraft 2 beta? THAT is how you do it and that's how we're doing it as well.

It costs a lot more $$$ to do it right (because we have to provide a server for every single game) but it eliminates so much hassle.  Imagine how things would gone with Demigod or Sins if it were done this way. 

The MP beta of Elemental will likely start out pretty buggy but I suspect connection issues won't be amongst the bugs.
End of Frogboy's quote
Thanks, that is assuring news. I am looking forward to the cool multiplayer mods. Warcraft had some cool ones like tower defense and dota, I am sure elemental will get silly and fun mods like these as well. :)

 

Edit: On a sidenote, quoting now works in chrome. Thanks! :D

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Thanks, that is assuring news. I am looking forward to the cool multiplayer mods. Warcraft had some cool ones like tower defense and dota, I am sure elemental will get silly and fun mods like these as well.
End of quote

 

It would be neat if one coul make an RTS mod out of Elemental, but I think we'll be stuck with a turn-based system. Sadly, no towerdefense.

Star Control: Origins
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting TCores, reply 27

Thanks, that is assuring news. I am looking forward to the cool multiplayer mods. Warcraft had some cool ones like tower defense and dota, I am sure elemental will get silly and fun mods like these as well.

 

It would be neat if one coul make an RTS mod out of Elemental, but I think we'll be stuck with a turn-based system. Sadly, no towerdefense.
End of TCores's quote

The Elemental engine is real-time already. We force it to turn-base by pausing it.

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, well, welly well, well. :)

Turn off the Pause. Turn off the Grid. And BAM! Continuous turns... (so I am guessing anyways.) ;)

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

In tactical battles, there's no grid support at all. It's pixel based (still turns).

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 30
In tactical battles, there's no grid support at all. It's pixel based (still turns).
End of Frogboy's quote

Cool! And now that you mention it, the photo's with Engine on show that (doh!)

Sorry, I should have stated that I was thinking about a possible mod that turned off the forced Pause, if possible.

on an unrelated note... Pixels FTW!

(fingers crossed that in 3 weeks our eyes will cease to bleed for a Graphics Engine)



Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 22
I will be the first to say that multiplayer is not going to be central to Elemental.  It's only in there because we keep getting flack for not including multiplayer with our TBS games.

It'll be reliable because we're spending the bucks to host on our own machines each and every game (except for those who choose to set up their own games who, one presumes, know what they're doing).

But I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice a single day delay or a even one single player game feature to help multiplayer.  

I love multiplayer gaming but multiplayer gamers get plenty of attention. Elemental is about empowering the single player experience. 

 
End of Frogboy's quote

 

I would just say to keep in mind that the 10-15%, the hardcore multiplayer folks, will be the ones exposing most of the problems with the ai and the majority of gamey mechanics. The multiplayer community might be small for games but theres no doubt were are the best post-release playtesters and the loudest part of almost any gaming community. In other words paying attention to the multiplayer concerns, especially about balance and ai problems, should make the single player experience better.

 

Also, Brad, (and I use your first name here because your like one of the only guys in the industry who feeels like one of us) thatnk you. Thank you so much for being able to live through the mistake of Demigod and actually realise and admit it was a mistake, granted not yours but GPG's, and learn something. The whole "It has to be UDP P2P topology to eliminate lag" argument only works when your Blizzard and willing to essentially build an entire framework around a game to support that kind of topology. And for games not requiring the response time there is no reason, except paying for the servers, to not go client server, even then you could allow people to host their own servers but you need to provide matchmaking to give your multiplayer community life. Thank you for being one of the incredibly rare few in the industry who is able to learn and turn around and do things right.

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 28



Quoting TCores,
reply 27

Thanks, that is assuring news. I am looking forward to the cool multiplayer mods. Warcraft had some cool ones like tower defense and dota, I am sure elemental will get silly and fun mods like these as well.

 

It would be neat if one coul make an RTS mod out of Elemental, but I think we'll be stuck with a turn-based system. Sadly, no towerdefense.


The Elemental engine is real-time already. We force it to turn-base by pausing it.
End of Frogboy's quote

 

That's really swell. I'm quite happy to hear that. I don't know how on earth I'm going to swing the time to do a TD as well!

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 30
In tactical battles, there's no grid support at all. It's pixel based (still turns).
End of Frogboy's quote

Interesting.

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

I feel the need to comment here concerning some of the things froggy has said.

While I can completely respect his stance. I have to admit the thing that will determine how long I play this game will not be the SP portion. I am not one of those people who has played Civ 1 or 2 for 5 years running.

But it will be the "When my brother comes home on leave to visit" statement

The one thing that has brought me back to MoO 2 for over a decade has been sitting down and playing with my family and freinds. I never open up MoO2 when I am by myself anymore. No matter how well an AI is written it will never suffice forever. Or at least I have never seen one and am not expecting one now, No insult intended.

So if I cannot say that this is a game that I am looking forward to playing against my brother when he comes home, then the replay value of the game will not hold a place of honor amongst the MoO 2, Majesty, and now Bloodbowl trophy case.

And while I am happy that the focus is now currently on the SP. I am hoping more development will continue after release to give this game the staying power that only MP can provide to this genre.