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The Living World

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The Living World

from Elemental Forums

There has been quite a bit of talk in the past about the game having a 'living world' to some degree. This has always been one of the great dreams of many games, and almost always falls short. I haven't heard much talk about it lately, and I worry that the concept is dying off.

 

Majesty 1 and 2 are good games, but their aspiration to 'Fantasy Kingdom Sim' has never sat well with me. Those games have always been 'Hero Management Sims' at best. Elemental strikes me as having the potential to truly be a Fantasy World Sim. I remember some dev journals and forum threads where we shared ideas about trying to make the game feel like one of the fantasy worlds that we have seen in RPGs and books. Right now, the game doesn't convey that, and I'm unsure of the plans to develop it later.

 

Here are the things I think we need to help the game feel more alive, and more like one of those great fantasy worlds we have often seen:

 

1) Lore. There is quite a bit of debate on this subject right now. I feel that including solid, interesting, fun lore is really important for this kind of game, and should not be minimized, especially for the initial release. As many people have said, Gal Civ started out somewhat generic, but was fleshed out nicely over the expansions. I would like the game to START fleshed out. However, it is important for a 4X style game to allow the lore to be somewhat flexible so that players are free to grow their empires and worlds without being constrained by what the Lore says SHOULD happen. Thus, there needs to be great backstory, but the Lore should not force the 'future' of the gameworld on anyone. Instead, make it more dynamic. So, if a player builds a huge city full of slums and crime, have some Lore generated that will describe the city as such and will then drive actual gameplay, which I will talk about below...

 

2) NPCs. In order to give personality to the world, the NPCs need to be interesting and active. I love, love, LOVE the idea of founding a Kingdom and then having parties of NPC adventurer's wandering through my territory engaging in quests, using my cities for resupply, and interacting with my government and Heroes. The NPCs need to have personality and priorities and their activities need to be visible and important to the Player. Let us issue quests that the NPCs can accomplish. Let the NPCs create situations that we will have to resolve, such as NPCs coming in and meddling with our affairs. Have some NPCs become major antagonists against us. For example, I am ruling as an evil despot. Let some NPCs vow to take me down, and have them start out engaging in small quests that are annoying, leading up to them working their way up to attacking me directly! Think of an RPG situation where you are the Hero trying to take down (or help) a Kingdom. Now flip it around, Dungeon Keeper style, and make the Player see things from the vantage point of the ruler.

 

3) Cities. Make cities more organic and lively. Don't allow them to all be the same, feel the same, and play the same. Make our decisions matter. The cities need more flavor and things to manage. We should need to worry about happiness, health, etc. If we build a big, unhappy slum, let the city look that way, play that way, and generate situations and quests that reflect the city's conditions. If we build an Inn, have it draw in or generate NPC adventurers who will then go to the Markets to buy equipment to go and raid nearby dungeons.

 

4) I really like how the quest system adds new places to explore, but make these places more dynamic and important. Raiding Bandit Camp #4 isn't much fun. Instead, have the quests tied to the gameworld. If I establish a trade route between myself and a friendly neighbor, have a bandit camp generated that will start raiding the route.

 

Just some ideas...not all original, but I would like to see where people feel we stand on the whole 'living world' concept at this point and for the future.

16,713 views 42 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting GW, reply 24

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 23Perhaps the term "Living World" has differing prospects for me and you... ...How do you see a "Living World" being detailed on the Cloth Map?
Yup, very different takes on the term it seems. Mine's not at all visual; it has to do with wanting game elements, including the non-built environment, to interact as organically as possible and be able to produce surprises long after I've lost track of the number of maps I've played. Basically, I want a 'living world' that would work in a text-only UI. Clear that spider nest, something happens, and the something varies according to whether the nest was near another spider nest, the only one in a forest, the thing blocking the pass out of a swamp where brigands camp, etc.
End of GW's quote

Well we are not so far off actually. The whole of the "Living World" would be made up of many different elements. At each click on the Mouse Wheel, either in or out, the presentation would obviously have to be modified to suit the new look that is presented.

Things will all be relative, and nothing lost, hopefully, as the ZOOM changes, just they way it is presented.

@psychoak

A question?

When, at some point then, during the actual game would you see the building/placing of actual stuff, not to be an exercise in simple brain deadness?

Given that premise, why not just have "all Cities" self build" all the time" and let your Tech tree choices be the decider as to what gets built and when? Why do you seem to dislike Houses over other similarly place-able items? Is the Limit control on the other items?

Just curious as to your deep dislike of that specific choice.

 

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

When, at some point then, during the actual game would you see the building/placing of actual stuff, not to be an exercise in simple brain deadness?
End of quote

 

Why does a house become all encompassing?  I wish to put strategic and tactical decision making into strategic and tactical operations.  How my peasants build up the city around my capital should be up to the peasants.  I have my own goals to accomplish, and I have to utilize them to do so, but I wouldn't be building individual houses.

 

It's not a brain dead exercise to develop your civilization, it's just brain dead to be managing the home owners associations and gardening clubs.  Think about running an actual empire.  The kinds of things you'd want to manage, and the kinds of things you'd want to leave to free enterprise.  This should be spelled out rather clearly in my previous posting here.

Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

"Think about running an actual empire."
End of quote

That would be all fine and dandy. But is only pertinent when you actually have an "Empire" to run. Not 1 or 2 Hamlets that "YOU" are struggling to grow, so they do turn into something actually viable.





Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 28
That would be all fine and dandy. But is only pertinent when you actually have an "Empire" to run. Not 1 or 2 Hamlets that "YOU" are struggling to grow, so they do turn into something actually viable.
End of John_Hughes's quote

This seems like it might be one of those scalability things that might end up being less than ideal for those of us who like maps at either extreme of the size range. In my dream world, the brilliant devs would solve the 'temporal transmission' problem as well as they've smoothed out zooming between the strategic map and the 3D view in GalCiv2. But it's a fuzzy dream, so I have no idea how it would work in the real world, except that I'd have both the early/small-game granularity you seem to be advocating and the 'organic' approach to non-'royal' infrastructure in later/larger games.

Aside: You also remind me that I hope to see larger maps in the beta sooner rather than later. I appreciate that formal large-map test plans for paid testers could be an unjustifiable expense, but I hope that the beta volunteers can help Elemental 1.0 be much more large-map-friendly than GalCiv2 is even after 2 expansions and numerous free updates.

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

That would be all fine and dandy. But is only pertinent when you actually have an "Empire" to run. Not 1 or 2 Hamlets that "YOU" are struggling to grow, so they do turn into something actually viable.
End of quote

 

Like, the first colony in the new world?  The first settlement in Alaska?

 

Funny thing, nearly every city on Earth was created by individuals building their own damn housing.  The very, very few that started as centrally planned cities, have long since been overgrown by individual housing.  I know it's hard to grasp in this age of interventionism that we're trying so hard to create, but life really does happen all by itself without mister wizard running the show from a top down display.

 

If you go out in the middle of nowhere, build a factory, and establish the utilities to operate it, the housing for your employees you don't even have yet will be taken care of by the time you've finished hiring.  It's very simple, they're going to need a place to live, and they wont join your employment unless it's worth the cost of getting one.

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 18


As noted above, it may be a tad early to worry about a "Living World" when all we have is a Cloth Map. It seems the Dev's are playing at least 3-4 builds ahead of us and maybe the world does already have some life, we just can't see it yet.

 
End of John_Hughes's quote

 

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 23
Perhaps the term "Living World" has differing prospects for me and you... I see the term putting us "on the ground, amongst the "flora and fauna" whereas when I utilize the ZOOM out to Cloth Map levels, I would be making a self imposed decision to forgo much of that "Living World" aspect.

How do you see a "Living World" being detailed on the Cloth Map?
End of John_Hughes's quote

 

Again...this has NOTHING to do with this thread! If you read my OP, you will see that I am talking about gameplay that makes the game feel alive, not anything that has to do with the Cloth Map / 3D engine. We aren't talking about visuals here, at all.

 

Sigh...

 

Some interesting thoughts on the organic growth of cities. I would also like to see something like this, but I agree with what has been said about the danger of things being too automated. I think it is far better for gameplay to allow the player to have some degree of control, for example, designating districts for housing, economic activity, or even districts for certain racial populations (IE: The Human Quarter, the Trogg Slums, etc). This would be especially important within City Walls. Outside of the walls, growth could be more sprawling and organic.

 

I'm curious as to other aspects of 'The Living World' concept, and what everyone thinks about them...my ultimate dream is for Elemental to be a true 'Fantasy Kingdom Sim' and not just a strategy game with fantasy artwork. I want to feel like I am building one of the awesome kingdoms from the great works of fantasy, and see that kingdom really live, guided by my decisions and the events that take place during the game.

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

"Funny thing, nearly every city on Earth was created by individuals building their own damn housing."
End of quote

And who do you think made that possible? The guy that was Captian/Sov of the ship that brought those sorry stiffs to the new land. Re-read your history...please.

Someone has to be in charge. It doesn't matter where or when it transpires. After the Town/City become established then we can look to Gov't to provide management or automation.

We already have size limiations (5 levels) and they auto covert housing... how auto do you want "fcol"

 

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Goontrooper, reply 31

I'm curious as to other aspects of 'The Living World' concept, and what everyone thinks about them...my ultimate dream is for Elemental to be a true 'Fantasy Kingdom Sim' and not just a strategy game with fantasy artwork. I want to feel like I am building one of the awesome kingdoms from the great works of fantasy, and see that kingdom really live, guided by my decisions and the events that take place during the game.
End of Goontrooper's quote

I get your idea and I completely agree with your points #2 & 4.  NPCs need to have some depth to them (I really like the idea that one guy recently posted about having NPC heroes being able to rise to become a sovereign on their own initiative) and quests should be tied to in-game events. 

One thing I would like to see is a robust in-game news system.  What I mean by that is that a lot of games hit you with dry events (i.e., "the Snorks discovered fire (morale +5)" or "Hex 26,37 has fallen to the Orks", etc.).  Boring.  I would much rather have an actual news system than makes for interesting reading.  So, instead of "The snorks discovered fire", I would like to see a headline to that effect and a few sentences adding color to the story ("The sovereign of the Snorks is pleased with the breakthrough but is concerned about potential safety issues.  However, the science adviser to the king is reported to have assured his majesty that with follow on research, fire proofing will be possible").   In a few sentences, I was informed of an important in-game event, but also given hints about potential side-effects and necessary follow-on research.  And it made for more interesting reading. 

I would like to see gossip, rumor, and even pure social events covered ("Queen Lysia hosted a dinner party for the Prince of Marshmallow Land today.... "[i.e., a diplomatic tip-off]). 

Maybe it's because I am a news junkie, but I have always found that those games that have tried to bring some flavor to game "news" managed to increase the immersion level considerably. 

BWT:  Some old 8-bit games that did so:  Sid Meier's NATO Commander, Run for the Money, and IIRC, Dragon Riders of Pern.  All presented in game events with a newsy/gossipy style that just made the game seem so much more alive.

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

My mention of the old 8-bit game Dragon Riders of Pern jogged my memory about something.  I recall that in that game, there were certain social events that you could use to your advantage.  For example, I remember that when one of your dragon eggs was about to hatch, you could invite representatives from other kingdoms to the party.  If the party went well, you could improve your relations with them.  If it went bad, there was a negative effect. 

I would love to see some similar social events included into the game so its not just about formal diplomatic relations, but also about ancillary social events that adds a bunch of "living world" chrome while also influencing the game (i.e., we could have the ability to call for a council of leaders [sort of like GalCiv's UN], announce a party for a new knight or duke, or just a royal feast, with each event having a cost but also a possible benefit [or % chance detriment] for the kingdom).  Of course, sticking with my news idea, it would be neat to see it reported upon by the 'town crier' so I could find out how the successful the function proved to be.

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting CrusaderScott, reply 34
My mention of the old 8-bit game Dragon Riders of Pern jogged my memory about something.  I recall that in that game, there were certain social events that you could use to your advantage.  For example, I remember that when one of your dragon eggs was about to hatch, you could invite representatives from other kingdoms to the party.  If the party went well, you could improve your relations with them.  If it went bad, there was a negative effect. 

I would love to see some similar social events included into the game so its not just about formal diplomatic relations, but also about ancillary social events that adds a bunch of "living world" chrome while also influencing the game (i.e., we could have the ability to call for a council of leaders [sort of like GalCiv's UN], announce a party for a new knight or duke, or just a royal feast, with each event having a cost but also a possible benefit [or % chance detriment] for the kingdom).  Of course, sticking with my news idea, it would be neat to see it reported upon by the 'town crier' so I could find out how the successful the function proved to be.
End of CrusaderScott's quote

 

This, and the news idea, are EXACTLY what I would like to see. As long as the gameplay impacts are clearly defined, this would be a great addition. The player shouldn't have to guess to figure out the gameplay impact of a news story. So, for example, you get a news item with lots of dynamic flavor text, and there is a small explanation of the actual gameplay impact afterwards.

 

For the events, the system seemed in many Paradox games would be a good start. These could be generated dynamically based on what is going on in the game, and the player could decide how to react, similar to what we see in the existing quest system. These events would add tons of flavor and would allow players to really decide the character of their kingdom.

 

For example, your city is at max housing capacity with low surplus food. An event has a chance of generating in which your citizens riot, demanding more housing and food. You then decide to either build what they want, send in troops to deal with them, etc. If you act in an oppressive manner in this event and others, you have a chance of generating a 'Robin Hood' style NPC who will start doing quests in the Kingdom to help the people and fight your oppressive rule. You then have to figure out how to deal with that NPC...appease him, kill him, ignore him, etc.

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Goontrooper, reply 35


This, and the news idea, are EXACTLY what I would like to see. As long as the gameplay impacts are clearly defined, this would be a great addition. The player shouldn't have to guess to figure out the gameplay impact of a news story. So, for example, you get a news item with lots of dynamic flavor text, and there is a small explanation of the actual gameplay impact afterwards.
 
For the events, the system seemed in many Paradox games would be a good start. These could be generated dynamically based on what is going on in the game, and the player could decide how to react, similar to what we see in the existing quest system. These events would add tons of flavor and would allow players to really decide the character of their kingdom.

For example, your city is at max housing capacity with low surplus food. An event has a chance of generating in which your citizens riot, demanding more housing and food. You then decide to either build what they want, send in troops to deal with them, etc. If you act in an oppressive manner in this event and others, you have a chance of generating a 'Robin Hood' style NPC who will start doing quests in the Kingdom to help the people and fight your oppressive rule. You then have to figure out how to deal with that NPC...appease him, kill him, ignore him, etc.
End of Goontrooper's quote

I think we're on the same page here.  It's sort of like the random events from GalCiv, but more common and less game altering. 

Reply #37 from Elemental Forums Top

And who do you think made that possible? The guy that was Captian/Sov of the ship that brought those sorry stiffs to the new land. Re-read your history...please.
End of quote

 

If you're going to be an utter retard, I'll stop bothering with polite replies.  While you pretend you have a clue, try actually thinking about what complete nonsense you're spouting.  You're supposed to be explaining to me why I'm crazy for thinking individual citizenry would build their own houses, not how the pilgrims got to the new world before they did so.

 

Someone has to be in charge. It doesn't matter where or when it transpires. After the Town/City become established then we can look to Gov't to provide management or automation.
End of quote

 

You'd make a good commie, but a really lousy entrepreneur.  Next time you don't have a point, try not posting it.

Reply #38 from Elemental Forums Top

One of the thing's I'm doing for the E:EE Mod is creating two versions - one is the basic version which simply expands the gameplay of the original game. When that is complete we are moving on to a more sophisticated mod. This will include things like Randomly Generated Heroes (or if we are unable to, large numbers of heroes randomly picked), Random religion emergence, terrain based technologies (so if you start near a lot of forests, your people might become forest-dwellers, if your in the desert your society would evolve very differently). Lots of other similar ideas. The core of it being that each game will be unique, and the world will be different based on the choices the players make. Heroes and Champions would be based on what technologies have been researched, so if you have a technology to allow for a Wizard champion, they will start appearing in your lands.

 

Anyway thought I'd mention that here since the idea is similar to what you are talking about. New Lore would be created as the world changed, Heroes are adventuring independently adding to the lore of the world, etc.

 

(This is my idea anyway, based on discussion with the development team it may change directions...)

 

 

Reply #39 from Elemental Forums Top

Sounds good to me!  I look forward to the mod!

Reply #40 from Elemental Forums Top

Some very good suggestions in this thread already. Also in 1z4 -yes it FINALLY works for me :D - I find that the world already has a lot of flavor simply by the merit of quests popping up.

What I would like to add to the game though are these factors that simply are out of control for the player, that add very little outside of flavor but are still a joy. For example, suppose there would be this carnival that was traveling the land. At some point this carnival would stop by one or more of your cities. The higher your economic power, the more you can charge the caravan in order to set up camp, since the caravan has better prospects of earning back their investment. If the carnival is a success then people get a sight production boost - or what have you - for a couple of turns. Things like these are enough to put a smile upon the face of a player, yet they are hardly game-breaking.

Another example of cool features is adding surprises to minor factions. For example, this dungeion that was there pretty much the whole time houses a secret that no one could foresee... A dragon appears there, and is he is not stopped, he may very well lay waste to one settlement that is close by. Your stock is hunted down and killed, people flee the settlement... You get the idea.

These random events can make it so that the game feels vibrant with life.

Reply #41 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting psychoak, reply 37
And who do you think made that possible? The guy that was Captian/Sov of the ship that brought those sorry stiffs to the new land. Re-read your history...please.

If you're going to be an utter retard, I'll stop bothering with polite replies.  While you pretend you have a clue, try actually thinking about what complete nonsense you're spouting.  You're supposed to be explaining to me why I'm crazy for thinking individual citizenry would build their own houses, not how the pilgrims got to the new world before they did so.

Someone has to be in charge. It doesn't matter where or when it transpires. After the Town/City become established then we can look to Gov't to provide management or automation.

You'd make a good commie, but a really lousy entrepreneur.  Next time you don't have a point, try not posting it.
End of psychoak's quote

Your ability to be an ignorant ass is duly noted.

I still don't see how you seem to think that with a Population that starts at 1 how in hell someone does not have to be in charge of the initial growth, and then the self Governing/Auto house building Industry that you see springing forth from SFA.

Let's do Governors starting at Level 2, as a compromise, and then I don't have a problem.

 

Reply #42 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Shurdus, reply 40
Some very good suggestions in this thread already. Also in 1z4 -yes it FINALLY works for me - I find that the world already has a lot of flavor simply by the merit of quests popping up.

What I would like to add to the game though are these factors that simply are out of control for the player, that add very little outside of flavor but are still a joy. For example, suppose there would be this carnival that was traveling the land. At some point this carnival would stop by one or more of your cities. The higher your economic power, the more you can charge the caravan in order to set up camp, since the caravan has better prospects of earning back their investment. If the carnival is a success then people get a sight production boost - or what have you - for a couple of turns. Things like these are enough to put a smile upon the face of a player, yet they are hardly game-breaking.

These random events can make it so that the game feels vibrant with life.
End of Shurdus's quote

 

I really like the carnival idea.  :D  

The problem with most 4X strategy games is that they are so heavily focused upon matters of war and peace that the "living world" (i.e., life away from the battlefield) fades to invisibility.  Ideas like your carnival, the OP's independent NPCs, and my social news/ functions help make the player realize that life is more than just pushing wooden blocks on a map.