For the TL;DR people, this post is not for you. Move along.
Don't simplify just to satisfy part of the playerbase.
Exactly. Don't dumb down modding for some people not interested in its possibilities. (What? If you use a double edged sword...)
I think you are overestimating Players are willing to go through the trouble of modding, especially immeadiately once the game is released. The galciv 2 mod community wasn't very vibrant and seemed to die around the release to TOA.
I don't think that the modding capabilities of Gal Civ 2 could ever compare to those of Elemental. Not even in dreams. Maybe most won't care. Many will wait for others to create the mod they want to play. And a few, from the vast number of players, will be wasting their precious life time creating content for others, to enhance their experience of the game if they desire to do so (or mod for fun as I do).
And not all modding suppose to code thousands of lines, retexturing, creating new models... One of the modding part that Elemental is to have is using simple in game tools to create new content (new items, new sovereigns, new maps...). As far as I understand all this whole debate, this is the kind of modding we are actually talking about: i.e. go to your race editor and create a kenku. (things like flying, modding the model because you want to polish it... those are details that go beyond that)
The first question that really determines where to go from here, is will armor pieces be able to "mold" themselves to various shaped torsos, or are they relatively fixed 3-D objects that get laid over the model?
This is a very good point. Chosing a faction/race or whatever should mean you are mainly using their units, strengths and weaknesses. Allowing you to use all the strengths of a conquered people tends to make all the games feel similar which isn't a good direction to go in. I also become less interested in playing other factions if I felt I already experienced what they have to offer in another game.
Choosing a faction only means who you are at the beginning, not what you could potentially achieve during the game. That said, playing without restriction/penalties the other races, especially those "opposed", would seem silly and not just because you could feel that have already experienced everything.
I think it's wrong to assume people will use mods. Many don't.
I think it's correct to assume people will use mods. Many don't.
But others do. Hell, some people only buy some games for their mods. That's a fact. Oh, they are not so many but they do exist. The same as the people who will only buy the game because it has multiplayer.
I'd rather have a fleshed out base game. I've learned never to underestimate modders- they'll find a way to do what they want to do, especially if things are open and documented. You can always improve modding via patch/expansion later on. It's harder to improve the base canon post-release.
Although I agree with you, I must say that because modders are supposed to exist it doesn't mean that some initial help/encouragement shouldn't be given to them. That includes people who isn't modder but that potentially could be (without being some kind of pro, just enough to tweak the game a bit if they feel like it).
John Doe that wanted elves in his game and doesn't want to bother online except for official patches from Impulse, isn't going to like that he isn't getting any in base Elemental. And even if there were 1,045,304 elven model mods out there, he may not want to use mods for different reasons (like the models not being visually the same style as the canon game). So for him to find that using the easy tools from the game, he can create elves because there are alrady some art assests for such task, would result in a happy John Doe.
It's not asking (at least not I) that in the base game we get assests for draconians, tarrasques, Na'vi, displacer beasts,... But some base adding the potentially more known and similar races would be a nice touch. Elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins... They could be easy to add (supposing that the canon faction provide similar models that require not too much tweaking), not as canon factions but as art assests easy to use by players in the editors. Or I think so as I'm speaking from the ignorance. The rest, the bulk of serious race modding can be done in expansion packs.
We are not the squeaky wheels that so many modders seem to be, so it is easy to overlook us. This should NOT be considered an attack on modders. I am simply stating that there is a group of gamers who want to make a purchase and play the game as is, and it would be nice to have a game to really dig into.
We are not the squeaky wheels that so many non modders seem to be, so it is easy to overlook us. This should NOT be considered an attack on non modders. I am simply stating that there is a group of gamers who want to make a purchase and play the game [as is AND/OR tweaked], and it would be nice to have a game to really dig into.
Yes. It's all or nothing. The game will not ship with any lore at all. In fact, we're going to dispense with factions and simply refer to them as numerical codes.
Codes? Barcodes? Barcode battler?
Do we have Factions AND Races that are distinct or do we simplify and simply talk about factions.
Previously, on Lost...
I agree entirely. If late game everyone has all their front line troops as Orcs, their ranged troops as Elves, their spellcasters as Humans, etc to max out the appropriate bonuses then that is boring and removes many interested factors from the game.
I like how in games like HoMM you got penalties in your army if you were to mix too different types. I'd hope for something similar in Elemental to happen.
It appears that the developer(s)' presumption is that extra modding will increase the game's appeal to the casual gamers.
It'll increase longevity of the game. It'll allow players to "fix" things even if Stardock went "Puff!" any time after release. If you have skills, it allows you to create a game of different genre if you must really do that.
It doesn't obligue you to mod. It gives you the chance of adding things or change the ones you don't want. The level of skill required and tools would then depend on your interests.
As for the people that want to customize their experience: If you want to make all custom opponents you can already do that with the faction editor, and if you want them to look different you can either use some of the stock models or download the models that someone else makes; I'm sure there will be plenty of elves, orcs, dwarfs, dragon men, bird men, etc. to chose from (seriously, even if you don't have faith in the modding community let it be known that I would be extremely shocked if these didn't show up with minimal effort on the modder's part; I've seen amazing things come from modders). Also, If I correctly understand the way modding will work then adding these races to your game would likely be as easy as moving the files to a folder, maybe easier if it is integrated into the online component.
It's soooooooo easy to say: "you can either use some of the stock models or download the models that someone else makes". Really. If Stardock doesn't offer Marilith models, you cannot use them. And that attitude of hoping to find a random modeler to fix your needs is a totally weak excuse. At best. I'll concede that modelling human models by Stardock to create elves would be at least "easy" due to similarities. As long as you get into some serious modding and modeling (because it's not like we are getting Spore's creature creator in Elemental... so it's not just change some text in a XML).
Yes, there will be modders. Yes, that will include modelers. Yes, eventually you will get all type of content and get elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, gnolls, draconians, bugbears, owlbears, little green men, na'vi, smurfs, slaan,... Let modders be the ones who expose code to Phyton too instead of wasting time/resources from Stardock during a whole beta phase.
Don't get me wrong. I trust Stardock and their ability to offer great products (and improve them later). I know that I'm going to be happy no matter what decide about this or anything else (and modding potential makes sure than anything that I don't like could be potentially removed if I'm in for the effort). From that point of view, unlike most of you, I'm lucky.
But if Stardock uses (and they do) modding as something very important to the game (not core, mind you, but yes important) so players can create spells, weapons, races... Well, they need to back those claims. And considering how many people already cries wolf because there are only "humans and fallen" (some don't even care if they play totally different, go figure), it's not crazy to suppose that not offering some non-human/non-fallen art assests (i.e. the cliché elves) so players can recreate with a few clicks their stardard expectations in fantasy (the easiest at least.. save things for expansion packs anyway), would be bad. Jus tease them and don't leave them waiting for modders to have to add things from the get go. Sounds like "Day 0 patching" but by fans.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for lore and solid races/factions, just in case any of you got the wrong idea. But unless Stardock convices me otherwise (money is by itself argument enough, you know, but it always is), I think that some seeds and basic support to what is supposed to be modding material would be nice and somehow a must have. Up to which point? Haha, lucky me that I don't work in the "Sausage factory" and don't have even to speculate about that. I throw the stone and... miss! (damn low Dex)