Creative solution to the "end-game problem"?

Most TBS games share a flaw that manifests towards the end of a game: It becomes clear that one player is absolutely going to win, but you still have to continue playing without much excitement for hours before the victory actually happens.  In multi-player games, the guy who knows he's gonna lose usually just quits - either leaving an imbalancing power vacuum in a game with multiple human players, or else detracting from the satisfaction of the winner actually getting to feel the satisfaction of seeing the victory screen.  In single player games it usually means you have to keep playing for several hours when there is no challenge left if you want to see your score or feel like you really won.

An old computer game going all the way back to the Apple II computer had a great solution to this problem (Actually I think the board game called "Life" used a similar idea).  The game was a TBS space conquest game (similar to Master of Orion) called Reach for the Stars, and that game was always fun to pay to the very end because of how it handled victory:

At the beginning of the game, you chose scoring multiples in various categories that were kept secret from everybody else but you until the end of the game.  The game gave points in different categories like colonization, destruction, conquest, research, diplomacy, happiness, etc.  (I forget the EXACT categories, but it was something like that).  At the start of the game you would get points to distribute as multiples in the various categories to reflect what was important to your faction.  For instance you could create a faction that got 4x the points earned during the game for destruction (killing, burning cities, etc.) but NO points for anything else.  Or you could create a race that got double points for the happiness of its citizens and the technologies it researched, but nothing for anything else,or choose to get normal points in 4 different categories if you wanted a more rounded game, etc.

The point of this system is that no matter how well or badly it looked like you were doing at the end of the game, you never really knew for SURE who was going to win until the game actually ended and everyone's personal victory modifiers were calculated into each player's final score.

Not knowing who was really going to win always kept the game exciting and fun to play up until the very end.

It might be a cool idea to assign your victory points a little time into a game so you could assess your starting position before you chose which strategies you wanted to gain points for.

7,148 views 19 replies
Reply #1 Top

But we don't win by points... We win by crushing the enemy and being the last empire standing or completing the master quest etc. I don't really think people care all that much about high scores.

Reply #2 Top

Points is stupid to use to measure victory.

 

However we could make it like in Galciv 2 Random 'Epic' events can switch the tide as in lets say.

 

Your losing to an huge and powerful kingdom of men which is good. You are a death mage or at least have talent in dark magic and are an empire. In response a new spell/tech opens up to begin utilizing Disease/viral warfare to infect armies and cities causing people to wither and die from a plague your people are immune to or you have a magical cure to so that at GREAT cost of lives and magical power you can greatly destabalize the enemy and give everyone else a chance to attack.

 

Or your an earth mage and your people are industrious and your losing a war so you commit all of your efforts to say discovering a new way to fight or a new invention and your people design golems Which either A cost essence to create living golems that are powerful or B if your of a darker morality golems made with the souls of the dead *People you kill and forge their flesh or bone or ashes into the golem during creation* which gives you a stronger army at great cost which allows you to have a chance to push the enemy back.

 

Those are simply examples but they showcase how in reality whenever a civilization is pushed to a limit they often times develop ways out of it. Necessity being the mother of invention afterall.

Reply #3 Top

I like your idea Seth, but I see one problem with it right away.

If you're already in a losing position, chances are your enemy already has the creature/spell/item/what-have-you that you're trying to use to destabilize his power-base.  Now, they say turn-about is fair play, but in this case, all it would do is drive you, the losing player, further down the hole.

Unfortunately, this is one problem I have a really hard time coming up with any constructive ideas towards solving...

Reply #4 Top

Well No i meant as in something YOU have your people find a NEW use for to make an ultra weapon or something similar to destabalise the enemy.

 

Example.

 

Your people have a large amount of copper and iron but your enemy is defeating your armies because you simply cannot match his quality of soldiers.

 

Your people mix the two and create folded steel while sure others have steel you have Folded steel which allows you to choose 3 new armor and weapon times *for diff types of items* as in 2 folds 20 folds 200 folds.

 

Which increases strength by 2x 4x and 8x respectively of those items making super troops.

 

Got it?

Reply #5 Top

Ahh, okay, yeah, that does sound like it'd work pretty well.  =P

Reply #6 Top

Lol

 

Well its like if you had native plants that were aggressive and your a nature/earth/water or whatever mage you could grow Carnivourious plants on tiles as a natural barrier that would kill soldiers trying to pass through *or they'd have to fight a battle to get past*

 

Just examples.

Reply #7 Top

I can definitely see why a lot of people don't like the traditional End Game or Mop Up phases of games. After a while, when the winner is clear, it gets boring.

But...

There are some people out there (like me) who rather enjoy the end game phase. Playing the game and getting to the "I Win" ending is the challenge and fun of these games. Being more powerful then the other Empires on the map, is the reward for being a great player. The proper thing to do is to find a balance that ensures a challenge the whole way through the game, from the beginnings of building your Empire, to when yours is the most powerful Empire on the map.

If you Completely remove the End Game, Stronger then All the Competition, part of the game then you effectively remove the goal a lot of the people are playing to achieve. Why play a game that's nothing but a endless war that you can never be "sure" you're going to win no matter how hard you try or how good you do building and managing your Empire? You need to have the feeling that "Yours is the most powerful Empire on the map" at some point in the game or you kill part of the reason for playing in the first place.

I do agree though the Mop Up phase shouldn't last forever and there Should be some kind of way for the AI to make a come-back and possibly beat you even when you might think you're going to win. We've been discussing ideas for just that very thing for months now and I don't think everyone can really agree on a happy medium other then "The Mop Up is Boring" which is really only true when it drags on and on. At some point you have to know you're going to win. That happens in every game almost, but people seem to complain the most when this is the case in turn based and real time strategy games.

Reply #8 Top

Well the option i described is pretty similar to galciv's rare 'Mega' events which could shift the balance of the game i'm not saying they should happen every game or often at all I'm just saying a chance would be awesome then it'd be like a book or movie in that at the last minute good or evil or your side or their side pulls out a bluff card.

Reply #9 Top

Diplomacy is another method of keeping the end game in check.

If one country is clearly powerful enough to walk over a single enemy nation, then it becomes much easier for that countries adversaries to justify entering into both military and trade alliances with each other.  Thus the end-game for the most powerful country becomes dealing with the economic difficulties of everyone else having trade agreements - whilst dealing with the military challenge of how to expand ones power to acchieve victory when attacking one neighbour means dealing with multiple other neighbours declaring war.

In GalCiv the game went roughly went:

early game:  Expansion

Mid game: boarder skirmishs and economy

End Game: Alliances and conquest. Aka, as the game progressed Diplomacy becomes more important to the power balance.

In conclusion, I believe that as diplomacy becomes more and more integrated into the game, the end game problem should resolve itself - or atleast it should be much harder to acchieve the cake-walk ending described

Reply #10 Top

Well a mix of mega events and diplomacy should be possible...

 

I just like mega events they were a great part of galciv and they made some of the end game suddenly more difficult.

Reply #11 Top

Personally I love the idea the OP presented(very similiar ideas were mentioned in the other LGT(late-game-tedium) threads).

As usual, there's a simple solution that most people would enjoy to this. Make it optional. A simple checkbox that allows you to have "victory point based ending" with a set time limit(say 300 turns), and a "concrete victory ending" that ends when you complete one of the "real" victory conditions.

Though even if it doesn't make it to the final game, it shouldn't be too hard to mod, I'd imagine. (though I suppose balancing would be the most difficult thing, by far).

Reply #12 Top

I agree that late game can become tedious, but i don't think "game breaking events" would be a proper solution. I think anything that can suddenly, and out of pure luck, turn the tide of a game has nothing to do in a strategy game.

I'm no hardcore chess player that can't live with some randomness, but i hate events that suddenly ruin a game with nothing you can do about them. Events can exist in a strategy game, but they should only have small to moderate impact on the game, and certainly not turn the tide of a battle.

I would much prefer have some diplomacy coding so that dominated AIs would gang up on the leading player, propose alliances with dominated human players, and things like this. It would be a much more intelligent way to make the end game challenging from my point of view. As for human only multi games, well, if dominated players are not clever enough to form alliances by themselves, there is sadly nothing to do :annoyed: At least, nations of giving up players would probably become AI controlled, and that AI could thereafter form alliances. Civ4 had something working this way as a heavily beaten AI would often ask another AI (or human player) his protection, thus becoming a vassal state. Unfortunately, it often occured when they were so heavily beaten that they would be soon wiped out, and somtimes their protector was on another continent. It doesn't mean the idea was bad.

On the other hand, if you manage to be the leading nation and have so many friends that dominated AIs couldn't find allys, you would surely be in position to claim some diplomatic victory. Wiping out every other nation is not the only way to win. Often late games become boring because games lack some diplomatic victory where several players could share a victory if the world is at peace or their rivals are largely dominated. Who said there can only be one at the end (no sovereign has such a name as Mac Laod right?).

I think intelligent and multiple victory conditions, combined with intelligent diplomacy can be the "creative" solution to the end game issue, at least in single player games. For human only games, unfortunately, only the dominated players can decide to gang up against the leading player.

If game breaking events are included please make them an option.

Reply #13 Top

I don't want a sudden complete turnaround simply interesting events they balanced them just fine in galciv 2.

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Bob-Morane, reply 12
I agree that late game can become tedious, but i don't think "game breaking events" would be a proper solution. I think anything that can suddenly, and out of pure luck, turn the tide of a game has nothing to do in a strategy game.

I'm no hardcore chess player that can't live with some randomness, but i hate events that suddenly ruin a game with nothing you can do about them. Events can exist in a strategy game, but they should only have small to moderate impact on the game, and certainly not turn the tide of a battle.

I would much prefer have some diplomacy coding so that dominated AIs would gang up on the leading player, propose alliances with dominated human players, and things like this. It would be a much more intelligent way to make the end game challenging from my point of view. As for human only multi games, well, if dominated players are not clever enough to form alliances by themselves, there is sadly nothing to do At least, nations of giving up players would probably become AI controlled, and that AI could thereafter form alliances. Civ4 had something working this way as a heavily beaten AI would often ask another AI (or human player) his protection, thus becoming a vassal state. Unfortunately, it often occured when they were so heavily beaten that they would be soon wiped out, and somtimes their protector was on another continent. It doesn't mean the idea was bad.

On the other hand, if you manage to be the leading nation and have so many friends that dominated AIs couldn't find allys, you would surely be in position to claim some diplomatic victory. Wiping out every other nation is not the only way to win. Often late games become boring because games lack some diplomatic victory where several players could share a victory if the world is at peace or their rivals are largely dominated. Who said there can only be one at the end (no sovereign has such a name as Mac Laod right?).

I think intelligent and multiple victory conditions, combined with intelligent diplomacy can be the "creative" solution to the end game issue, at least in single player games. For human only games, unfortunately, only the dominated players can decide to gang up against the leading player.

If game breaking events are included please make them an option.
End of Bob-Morane's quote

How is luck unrealistic?  Shit happens, it's a fact.  Let's say you and I are the leaders of Empires, and we're at war, and you're whuppin' me.  Suddenly, every coastal city you are in control of gets hit by a massive Tidal Wave, effectively cutting off all benefits from those cities.  Now, you're still ahead, but I've got a chance to level the playing field somehow, either via Military, Diplomacy, or Economy booming.

The idea was never that there would be 'Game-Breaking events.'  Game-Breaking, by definition isn't fun, and is only fun for those it serves the first few times.  After that, it gets old.  However, giving BOTH/ALL players a sudden reason to scramble around trying to repair their kingdom/destroy their enemy/fix their economy/etc is never bad.  And giving players a reason to be frantic in a TBS is something that is generally just not very well done or not present at all.  I know even when I was losing a game of Civ, I never felt frantic...  I was just losing, and I knew it, and I knew I couldn't really do anything to stop it.  I either had to rely on my allies, accept defeat, or quit.

In conclusion, these events would be 'Game-Re-balancers,' not 'Game-Breakers.'

Reply #15 Top

Finally someone saw it that way.

Reply #16 Top

Quoting RikazeMA, reply 14

How is luck unrealistic?  Shit happens, it's a fact.  Let's say you and I are the leaders of Empires, and we're at war, and you're whuppin' me.  Suddenly, every coastal city you are in control of gets hit by a massive Tidal Wave, effectively cutting off all benefits from those cities.  Now, you're still ahead, but I've got a chance to level the playing field somehow, either via Military, Diplomacy, or Economy booming.

The idea was never that there would be 'Game-Breaking events.'  Game-Breaking, by definition isn't fun, and is only fun for those it serves the first few times.  After that, it gets old.  However, giving BOTH/ALL players a sudden reason to scramble around trying to repair their kingdom/destroy their enemy/fix their economy/etc is never bad.  And giving players a reason to be frantic in a TBS is something that is generally just not very well done or not present at all.  I know even when I was losing a game of Civ, I never felt frantic...  I was just losing, and I knew it, and I knew I couldn't really do anything to stop it.  I either had to rely on my allies, accept defeat, or quit.

In conclusion, these events would be 'Game-Re-balancers,' not 'Game-Breakers.'
End of RikazeMA's quote

Well, as i said, it's my point of view and everyone doesn't have to agree ^_^ Also, i never told it was unrealistic, i just told i don't like random events that could play too big a role.

Well, at least with events, it's easy to include a checkbox and everyone will be happy, however i would rather have other ways to make the end game more interesting.

However, due to the very nature of random events, i can't imagine an event could be a "game-re-balancer" sometimes, and not be a "game-breaker" other times. It will depend on when it happens, and what's the situation. Imagine in the situation you described, your last remaining cities are large and prosper coastal cities. You are being beaten badly but everything isn't lost already cause your last cities are still powerful and you can try to be diplomatic and gain allies, than all of a sudden, you rather than me are hit by this massive Tidal Wave ...

Same event, different situation, and suddenly your game rebalancing event becomes a game breaker.

Quoting Sethfc, reply 13
I don't want a sudden complete turnaround simply interesting events they balanced them just fine in galciv 2.
End of Sethfc's quote

Well, to be honest, i never played GalCiv2 (no multiplayer >:( ) so i can't talk about those in particular, but way too often i've seen events that can really break the game completely for someone, either because they occur too early, or they hit a player already in a bad situation.

Also, it's easier to include such big events in a single player only games than in a multiplayer. In Single if an event really puts you in an awfull situation, you can simply quit and start a new game.

On the other hand, even thought i don't think point are stupid per se, i don't think they would fit into this kind of game. I prefer more "real" victories too.

Reply #17 Top

Quoting Raven, reply 7
I can definitely see why a lot of people don't like the traditional End Game or Mop Up phases of games. After a while, when the winner is clear, it gets boring.

But...

There are some people out there (like me) who rather enjoy the end game phase. Playing the game and getting to the "I Win" ending is the challenge and fun of these games. Being more powerful then the other Empires on the map, is the reward for being a great player. The proper thing to do is to find a balance that ensures a challenge the whole way through the game, from the beginnings of building your Empire, to when yours is the most powerful Empire on the map.

If you Completely remove the End Game, Stronger then All the Competition, part of the game then you effectively remove the goal a lot of the people are playing to achieve. Why play a game that's nothing but a endless war that you can never be "sure" you're going to win no matter how hard you try or how good you do building and managing your Empire? You need to have the feeling that "Yours is the most powerful Empire on the map" at some point in the game or you kill part of the reason for playing in the first place.

I do agree though the Mop Up phase shouldn't last forever and there Should be some kind of way for the AI to make a come-back and possibly beat you even when you might think you're going to win. We've been discussing ideas for just that very thing for months now and I don't think everyone can really agree on a happy medium other then "The Mop Up is Boring" which is really only true when it drags on and on. At some point you have to know you're going to win. That happens in every game almost, but people seem to complain the most when this is the case in turn based and real time strategy games.
End of Raven's quote

Actually yes i agree, I somtimes enjoy the reward of stomping mercilessly over my enemies once ive worked hard to gain the advantage. Like you say so long as it isnt too long.

One thing that kinda sucks the fun out of sc2 for me is the moment you are winning its 'gg' and game over, i know it saves time but its always a bit of an anti-climax.

Reply #18 Top

In some of my Nwn Modules I have had script that Creates random Deity(god) acts sometimes good sometimes bad but most of the times they the Gods interfere at the worst/or best time like right when you think you are on your last hit point before you loose when suddenly an army of celestial creatures join your cause and turn the tide around or heal you or you are about to go storm the opponents strong hold when all of the sudden all of your troops become ill and either do not preform well or simply die etc. As long as the players can't predict (cheat) as to when and what this act will be if ever it always keeps the game interesting to the very end.

Reply #19 Top

I like your Idea for one victory only ... TIME. For all other victories (Conquest, Master Quest, Magical Victory) ... those could still be completed normally and achieve victory. However ... if somehow none of those victories were reached within the alloted turns, then "personal points" would be calculated for the victor.

In this case, I would certainly like for "personal points" to be in one of such categories.

In Elemental's case, it would probably be Civ points, War points, Magic points, adventure points, and Diplomacy/Alliance/Trade points.

with the 4x;

2x, 2x;

2x, 1x,1x,

and 1x, 1x, 1x, 1x options.

this would not only move in a directoin away from the monolithic "score" of Civ series, but would also allow for an interesting and NON PREDICTABLE way to measure victory at the end of a near deadlocked tie. (even if one side appears to be slowly losing)