Throw money away = fighting words to synn!!!

What are you complaining about, Synnworld?  When you need new games you can grab your nine and knock over the nearest GameStop.

If the impulse server ever shuts down, then it is no longer piracy to distribute the game. And it will live forever on the internet where it is easily accessible.

A disk is GUARANTEED to break, it has a very short shelf life. with 10 years being rare. And it is also very easy to scratch.

I once had a 600 CD library... I later found out only 1/3 of them work... I have been using ZFS raid as long term storage since.

My warcraft disks? corrupted (and not a single scratch on them), my starcraft disks? gone... my red alert disk? corrupted... etc...

16bit installers and incompatible DRM aside, the physical media itself has a limited shelf life

post broke, delete!

I think a particular part of my post is most pertinent here:

btw:

total and utter BS. Draconian DRM is done to prevent legal second hand sale market, legal backups, and to force customers to repurchase their software when the disk is scratched.

1.It in no way shape or form impedes pirates

2. Draconian DRM creators, advocates, and perpetrators admit that their goals are not to stop piracy but to squeeze more money out of legitimate customers (some even admit that their goal is to harm libraries... as for those saying it will never happen... it ALREADY happened... Since the DMCA libraries have not been backing up anything with DRM)

3. Draconian DRM is never a response to piracy... rather, piracy is used as an EXCUSE to implement draconian DRM which is done for ulterior motives

Actually, it is illegal because you bypassed the copy protection schemes put in place on the disk... how many computers you install it on is completely irrelevant. Few games actually specify how many computers you can install it on (instead limiting you to playing on only one computer at once via a CD check)

Sounds like your cd player or storage is too close to your speakers or other magnets.   Even still cds and dvds are only rated to last so long.   Of course having hard copies does help.  For instance I just had a problem with LFD2 which STEAM couldnt find it..  Therefore it wouldn't re-download and fix digitally.  They only way was to re-install from disk.    Whoever can come up with removable digital media to distribute games that has at least a 50 year shelf life is gonna make some money.  As a matter of fact I don't see why games aren't distributed on small flash cards.  Of course they have a limit to how many times you can read/write to them too. 

P.S. Impulse Rules..     I like the option of getting the digital and hard copy.  They should offer this on all games.

I'm kinda shocked this thread has gone on so long.  I thought it woulda got trolly and got locked or the topic would have ran it's course by now.

Good job.

-Twilight Storm

Your not the only one to say this but I figured I'd quite you cause it's short and to the point.

Now I want to make a counter argument. And that is disk, as in CD/DVD, have an extremely long shelf life and that's kinda the point of having them. Sure they also have the benefit of holding more storage then magnetic versions.

Anyway I don't know what you guys have done to your disk but I have never had a disk go "bad" on me. And after reading several such post about their CDs 'wearing out' some even with no scratches I began to wonder. So I went to my closest pulled out a bunch of really old CDs including Original Warcraft, Starcraft, Daggerfall, Magic Carpet, and a few others. And after trying them all what do you know they all still work!

CD/DVD are very durable but they are not indiscructable. First of they are not "easy to scratch" as in it happens during the course of everyday use. You have to mishandle them by doing things like leaving them out on the desk and not in their case, tossing them in piles, and etc. The vast majority of my CD/DVD collection, which is extensive, has zero scratches. Accedents to happens so things can get scratched but if your smart about handling them they won't get scratched.

Second the disk no longer works even though it "appears" in perfect condition. Again CD/DVDs are durable and don't simply "wear out" by sitting around. They are made of plastic which can warp if exposed to high tempetures. Sometimes it's not as obvious that it go hot enough or that any warping ocurred. I had a friend who left some VHS tapes and CDs in his car on a hot summer day. The VHS tapes were all warped looking but the CDs appeared fine yet when he tried to use them they wouldn't play. CD/DVD use very sensative and percise placement with the laser to work and if it's offset just slightly it won't work anymore.

I have no idea what kind of condition you guys store you CDs in over the many years or how you guys treat them but mine I've always taken care of and they still work even after 10+ years. When I have moved I always pack them up and move them myself. I don't trust some moving company that could leave them sitting in a hot truck for hours on end and potential ruin them like my friend did with his in the car. I put them back in a case when I'm done using them.

One of the local rental stores here had a DVD and its case sitting on the counter for yeras. It was left in the hot car during one of the summer months, we hit over 100 pretty regularly in the summer. The case was melted and twisted, the disc was fine. I've had some discs get scratches in weird place, one cracked by the "protective' case was crap, and maybe one more got scrape on it. Those were all my fault. I've never see a disc just go bad for no apparent reason, then again, I don't really put my discs next the microwave or anything like that. They're very durable and I have several discs that are well over 10 years old that work fine.

Which is why I question those people's claims. As until now in this thread I had also never even heard anyone claim their CD/DVDs went bad for "no apparent reason" while sitting on the shelf.

I don't own a CD player, I only use disks in a computer. And magnets do not harm CDs, they are made out of lacquer and plastic.

My CDs were kept in cases, in the dark, in my living room, which is always climate controlled at 72 degrees.

Thats not a counter argument, thats a lie. Disks do not have extremely long shelf life, anyone who tells you they do is a liar or is ignorant and likely trying to sell you on the stuff... Now, DVDs have better longevity than VHS tapes, and CDs better longevity than audio cassettes... but that isn't "extremely" long.

Also note that I was mostly storing data on them, so there were noticable data errors... aka, failed CRC check on extracting archives and the like. The most common case is with old game disks, there would be a few corrupt files that prevent a game from installing

The vast majority of mine has zero scratches too.. I lost many disks by letting my little brother handle them when I was younger, and besiides.. "vast majority" should be "Every single one"... Blu-ray disks actually have a hard coating that resists scratches. CDs and DVDs are extremely soft and easy to scratch. Even you who claim to handle them carefully have scratched disks...

Yes they do, its called disk rot. You saying it "again" doesn't make it true... physics and chemistry are such that objects decay over time. Some things can decay so slowly that their effective life is much longer than that of a human... in reality this is not the case with CD/DVDs... it was meant to be the case (the design spec calls for 10 to 100 years longevity), but they don't actually meet the design requirements.

Look, if you can't do real research, can't you at least rip off wikipedia? Even a shoddy source like wikipedia would tell you that CDs are not made out of plastic. The plastic is just to protect the actual storage layer, which is a dye, lacquer, or metallic substrate... there are a variety of ways of making them actually. As for the plastic layer... plastic is a common term for polymers, which are giant single molecules who are made from a series of small basic molecules (called monomer) which repeat across the chain to form one big structure. polymers come in a huge variety of strengths, some of which are ridiculously strong.

Yea... this is exactly NOT what I was talking about... I never exposed my disks to that sort of heat.

I also always move them myself. My guess is that your collection contained fewer games (pressed) and burned (CD-R) data disks and more store purchased (pressed) music disks... Degradation is much more common in CD-Rs, and it is very visisble in data (games are data), and not very noticeable in music.

Then you don't won enough disks... mine were all kept in 72 degrees, in a case, not exposed to light or anything else... disks just go bad.

My issue with Discs is that regardless of how well you care for them, they're going to get damaged eventually.  They're going to need replacing and by not having the option to replace them or back them up legally ensures that you're going to have to buy another copy at some point.  I've lost count of the games that I've paid for and no longer work because the Disc is damaged through simple use.  Requring the user to protect their Discs in lock boxes between uses and to handle the Disc only with unmanned robotic assistants to prevent human hands from even touching the Disc to ensure the Disc's survival is simply unrealistic.  The point is the Discs are going to get damaged and we should be able to back them up, either by physcially copying the disc or by the Developer or Publisher providing a digital version of the game that can be re-downloaded and backed up at the users discretion.

All discs are NOT going to get damaged. I've still have disks and discs from the first computer my family owns. As a product, they are fine, IF you have a computer to read them and can still use them, a couple decades old here. Books are pretty fragile things, but what do you know, they are capable of lasting for hundreds of years if you take care of them. I don't know why some of you think all things fragile will eventually lead to ruination as if it is inevitable, it simply is not true. If you take care of your discs, their shelf life will outlast their useful life easily.

Whatever the half-life of your Half-Life CD (did you see what I .. nevermind) the point is that you shouldn't be breaking some law or a contract to secure your 'belongings'. Digital or otherwise.

(And yes I know half-life dosn't really fit the use above - it was for a failed joke ok?)

I don't know if I'd say failed, I got a chuckle out of it..lol.

Why is it illegal because copright holders want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to tell people they can't do anything the copyright holders don't want them to do with their purchase, basically calling it a license, but at the same time, they don't want us to call it a license because a license shouldn't really be limited to a physical media. I mean I have a license to use Windows 7. Should I somehow loose that disc, it's pretty easy for me to legally obtain another copy of the softward and apply the legal key I have. For some reason, games reject this idea. if you loose your game disc, they want you to buy the game again (if its even possible to do so) which is total crap.

THe laws in most countries now unfairly favor copyright holders to the point where large portions of the public pretty much reject copyright law all together.

Since you have such an issue with discs, the digital platform seems to be more up your alley. Me, on the other hand, have seen enough people burned by picking a losing software client only to have some company yank their servers and tell people who were silly enough to pay for their music, movies, games, books, whatever it is, better luck next time while the pirates who didn't give a dime for their copies, continue to enjoy theirs.

Yeah I looked at it a bit. I don't think there is much chance against it though. DMCA came through with hardly a blink it seemed and that was pretty a screw you paying customer guidebook.

Correct, they claim that their product is both a license AND a physical product AND they pretend that this somehow entitles them to the benefits of both and the drawbacks of neither, and saddles the customer with the drawbacks of both and the benefits of neither.

And in the USA, the law has been on the side of those who do that since the DMCA. which eliminated fair use rights in the USA. Some countries have saner laws, but ACTA seeks to change that.

I complained about it since the day it came out.

Thanks for that - they say you learn something every day and i just learned that i've been subject to the propaganda of DRM companies...  That doesn't mean that I didn't make some good points in my post or that I condone any form of illegal action - only that I concede that you probably know more about DRM than I do and therefor it has less to do with "pirates" than I originally thought.  

In Australia I have the Legal right to make a back up copy of any media I legally own (unless they changed it recently)  - for my own use - etc etc etc...  which is one of the reasons I agree with you.  Companies don't like it...  On DVD movies in Australia -   we get a "it is forbidden for you to copy this disk"  "it is illegal to make illegal copies - or sell, distribute blah blah blah illegal copies"  which means - because of our media laws - they forbid us to copy media but it isn't illegal(but they want to imply it is) - but if it were illegal it would be illegal - and if you sell them - distribute them blah blah they  become illegal.  I notice on my Amazon US disks (i get lots of those as your dvd's are half the price and come out months in advance of Australian disks)  the FBI warning is very different and it's more about  - "it's illegal and these are the fines"  but you can imagine begin brought up in that legal system why DRM seems more draconian that it might otherwise -

Well Sega has a new DRM scheme out. There is one thing that I like about it, although the OA is pretty much a no buy for me at this point. I don't trust any of these money hungry companies after all.

• Alpha Protocol uses Uniloc: SoftAnchor.
 
• Uniloc: SoftAnchor requires an internet connection to activate, though you don't need to always be connected to play the game, and the web site offers a work-around if you don't have an internet connection on the PC you install it on. 
 
• The PC version of Alpha Protocol uses an internet based licensing system, where, after installation, the user is required to enter a product registration code (license key) in order to begin playing the game. 
 
• You do not have to have the disc in your drive to play the game. 
 
• The game does not user SteamWorks, and the Steam version of the game will use Uniloc DRM. 
 
• The game can be installed on up to 5 different computers at any one time using the license key the game comes with. 
 
• There is a limit to the number of computers you can use Alpha Protocol on at any one time, but Sega says that the company is not restricting the number of computers you can install the game on over the life of the product. 
 
• SEGA will provide a version of the game without DRM using a future patch that it expects to make available 18-24 months after the game's release

If we saw more promises like this, and most importantly those promises were kept, then it might mean publishers really are combating piracy and spending a lot less time trying to destroy the second hand market. I would say their time frame is a little long for the anti-piracy stance but as far as I am concerned, the industry should require that all companies remove their DRM after a period of time.

Sounds 'fair' as you can get even though it will be broken in seconds and is a waste of money.

And whats OA? Operation Arrowhead? Didn't know you like Arma2!

Heh, Online Activation, usually shows up on OA on sites that categorize and summarive DRM schemes for games. I would rather see that 18-24 months bumped back to 12-18 months. It's fairer in that if you wanted to avoid DRM entirely, you can just wait. Assuming they do what they say they are going to do. It's not so great its stacked on top of digi store DRM though. For awhile, I pretty much bought every game I owned 1-2 years after their release. I could do that again for the most part. I am fairly patient, and have a ton of games I haven't finished already.

Hey I never said DRM will work or that it's not a waste of money, but the publishers don't seem interested in leaving it behind entirely.