Why every Sovereign will have a sword and plate armour

soldiers are based on what you give them so far the cloaks seem fine but the weapons and armor need some balance or basicly some weakness for useing them.

Yes I know that's how it works for soldiers but it seems to be the same when you design your sovereign, the difference being that you need to research arms and armour for your soldiers and they take more resources to produce.

My point is when customising the sovereign before the game you can give them a really big combat advantage at zero cost by choosing armour and a broadsword for them. This will mean that especially in multiplayer everyone will do so.

That's really my point this needs to be changed or balanced some how.

time and resources means nothing when a super soldier can't die.

They are placeholders. They mean nothing. In the future, stats like Strenght will mean something, equipment will be balanced... No one would seriously believe that female Sovereigns cannot have any defense score and to be forced to pick up swords to get 10 attack because they lack any decent equipment at all.

It's safe to assume that the game will include some different pieces of equipment that support some types of tactics (tank, scout...) plus maybe some extra unlocked by talents (or maybe not). Possible values and possibles costs will be part of the process of balance... once we are in conditions to start balancing that (that it's not now).

About that equipment giving them an edge over normal troops... Well, depends on if we will be able to update their equipment. Currently they cannot and at best they get rings so I don't see it as unfair. They also start with better stats/health. They are suppose to be better than standard initial cannon foder. They are supposed to survive a bit more easily at the beginning because if they die, you lose the game (with the current mechanics and Beta state isn't that easy).

People in multiplayer will pick always armour and sword if they are not offered other options that serve their strategy and/or if there some kind of unbalance that makes one strategy too strong.

You must remember Brad said that this game wasn't going to cater to multiplayer whatsoever so it really doesn't matter what happens in multiplayer as it's the single player game that is most important and major balance isn't required (if you ever played MOM you'd know why). Games that are not balanced for multiplayer make the best solo single player games both in skirmish mode and campaign and I wouldn't want them to do anything different to ruin that.

I would point out psychoravin that Beta 2 coming up is the multi-player beta so while as Brad said multi and single player don't have to be the same it will have an effect on the way people play test the beta.

Anyway I realise that the game is not supposed to be balanced yet and that just about everything is a place holder. What I'm interested in is how they intend to ressolve this. I think the simplest answer is to make equipment that changes stats require customisation points to equip.

4) You can't use those heavy swords and armor unless your strength is pretty high.

5) You can't just dump everything into strength because if you neglect dexterity, you can't hit shit with your shiny sword.

This is pretty ubiquitous in games like this because it works.

Boogie also said more recently that there are balance concerns because if they're going to have MP at all they want to do it right.

Besides, "balance" isn't strictly a multiplayer concern. If you have 20 items on the customize screen where one of them is triple the strength of all the others, everybody will use that one. Not using it will gimp you severely, and that isn't a good thing.

That said, I'm hoping the customization options in terms of sovereign clothing are just cosmetic and don't affect stats. I like to get into custom characters, and having to always give them a sword or else would be lame. (Or if they do have stats, the stats are balanced.)

we could just go back to rolling d20s

I perfer option 1 as well ... spend some attribute points on your starting equipment. However, I think you should be able to equip your sovereign with items and equipment you find and research as the game goes on. IE, the Sov should have one of those "character sheets" that shows all potions, rings, necklace, pieces of armor, robes, cape, ect. This would have your stats in a lower left hand corner, and here you can pick different equipment, ect for your sovereign to wear. you could also reforge your weapons/armor in a different material to make it stronger, or in a different glaze to give it a better/nicer color-aesthetic. Not sure how to handle the upgrade of your sovereign's equipment ... so I say that it should either be completely free (as long as its available, your sovereign can wear it) ... or a small, small gold fee to upgrade your equipment. PersonallyI think "FREE" since the Sov is everything and YOU own the resources, but alas ... some people might want to signify building each piece of equipment, so they might prefer the abstract gold cost, yet personally I think equipping the Sov should be free upon availability.

So yes, I feel that if a Sovereign Wants to wear full plate mail, and a Broadword +2, he should damn well spend Sov points on it ... cause he is "really lucky" to happen to be wearing all that bling at the time of the cataclysm, and know how to maintain it proper (already owned it, and knew what to do with it). Probably certain equipment should only be available to certain origins/professions. Like Adventurers, Warlords, and Royalty can wear heavy arms, and only Hunters, Bards, ect can use quick boots and Yithril Bows.

Anyways, I think requiring certain equipment with Origin would NOT be worth it, however I think it SHOULD cost Sov points to start off with an Uber Sovereign, and it should be free to upgrade him later (if you wait for the tech).

// Now then, things need to be some-what balanced. Assymetric balance, and lack of Patterns is what you need. it is Asymmetry that makes SP games great, not necessarily "imbalance". At least for Sandbox mode. Campaigns can be as imbalanced as they have to be, and rightly so, as its a different type of game. Sandbox and MP, however, need Asymmetrical balance in order to be successful. Patterns are boring, and Unbalanced is boring too because there is only one valid choice- only one valid strategy.

I mostly agree, I don't think upgrade should be free exactly though you should have to upgrade him which should take anumber of turns depending on availability or raw materials, just as it would for upgrading the equipment of soldiers.

Soldiers are an abstraction (usually) of multiple people. The sovereign is one person. The sovereign is meant to be uber, simply not *always* uber from the start.

At the very beginning, I only happend to equip armor onto my Sovereign for the Aesthetic appeal. Later on, I made a differetn type of Sovereign that didn't wear armor as his personality/style. Once again I set his stats to max, yet this time ....he was a weak chump Instead of a Battle Rank of 24 or so. Pity, Pity, Pity.

Still, I agree with Wintersong that its currently just a placeholder, and that in the final release more attention will be taken for the Sovereign and his equipment/ect.

Anyways, for all rules, the Sovereign should be the exception, but all Sovs should still be asymmetrically balanced, and not clones of each other. Currently you either get Uber Armor, or Jack, for no cost at all, no difference in Investment.

Ya, way to freak out about balance concerns at a beta stage where there is zero balance.

How about the fact that you can create a peasant on day 1, have him run around gathering all the items scattered about the map, and by turn 200 or so he has 40 moves per turn, 20 attack, 15 defense, etc. Come on! Just find bugs and ignore balance.

hehehehe ... true dat.

Well, as far as bugs, there are random bits of the map that decide to stay revealed.

Also, disbanded units stay on the map. (although units that auto-disband from lack of gold properly dissapear)

-> manually disbanded units stay on the map. Also I don't see a way to disband units that are inside the city.

Also, from a UI perspective, selecting groups of units are Haphazard at best.

Not in this game. Each soldier comes from the population, and sizes/capabilities look to be appropriate to one person per soldier for now.

Hence you can have a party of decked-out knights in uber armor going up against a company of peasants. (Each of these are discrete units of troop production in the beta so far)

Oookay. Well yea, I mean ... yea. I suppose your right. And thats what I like about the game. However, I still thing the idea of spending turns to Train and Equip your sovereign on Weapon/Armor upgrades is "silly" and the upgrade should be fast and at little to no cost.

Honestly, I think what you pick at sovereign creation should be purely aesthetic. The sovereign's stats should be the only deciding factor. Once you start play, yeah, stuff you pick up should affect your stats, but in the creation, appearance should just be appearance.

I am perfectly happy for sovereigns to have items that effect those stats. But for instance while creating my sovereign at the moment I can spend 5 points getting 15 Strength or 0 points to get +8 attack by equiping a broadsword. What I'm saying really is they need to charge for the equipment you start with, just as they charge for stat points, spellbooks, advantages / disadvantages. I agree you should be able to find other equipment in game and re-equip in game. It's something that obviously needs addressing and should probably be initially looked at before the multiplayer beta just so everyone isn't using the same equipment and looking very similar.

Yes, I noticed stats seem to do nothing at the moment, I just wanted to point out to them that they shouldn't give away useful equipment free in the customisation screen. I figure they may have just forgotten some equipment has stats attached and so forgot to charge something for it. Might create more variety of sovereign for the multiplayer beta if the attach some cost at that point.

Well, since you can only equip one weapon and one dress, technically those things don't have to cost anything points wise. But the different options need some balance between each other, and they need to display what they do somewhere.

Either that, or they need to be cosmetic. I had great fun making a female sovereign that looked great in one of the dresses with a staff, but she got absolutely trounced by stuff that one with a sword would steamroll.

I don't think equipment should be cosmetic ... but maybe you can make their card FIRST (which is totally cosmetic) and then actually assign their equipment in flux. This way, you don't need to make a new card every time you "upgrade" your Sovereign, and you can have the card that you think looks the most cool.

In addition, actual equipment purchased should cost Sovereign Points. Later in the game, when you get better equipment, you can simply upgrade.

**Actually, now that I think about it, it would be really cool of the Sovereign had a "character sheet" where you can switch out equipment, ect, as long as you have the tech and "decent" industrial capabilities (scrounging doesn't count).

I agree that initial equipment that provides bonuses should cost points.  I also would love to see the character sheet concept: one of of things that was great fun in Heroes of Might and Magic was equipping your heroes with artifacts you found along your journeys. It really gave a sense that the hero was developing and progressing. Silly as it seems, I find that a "paper doll" interface is a nice touch in making a character feel like an actual being rather than an abstract vessel filled with abilities. I want the sovereigns in Elemental to feel much more grounded and real than the leaders in GalCiv or Civilization, who are more like representations of concepts than actual characters in the game.

Paper Doll interface ftw!