City Structure pipe dream...

So after one of the recent dev posts, I have to say I'm disappointed with the way that cities are turning out.  Granted, we don't know exactly how it will turn out until future betas.  The devs always promised that Elemental would be enveloping and feel like a living growing world.  Having authoritarian control over where to plop every building in your city--- right on down to where "huts" go--- is not very organic. 

I think so far what cities are sorely lacking is some kind of expression of their overall health and vitality.  As of right now, a city is really nothing more than its buildings, and every person has uniform worth throughout your empire.

If I had my way with things, I would scrap the tile placing system alltogether.  Yes, cities would take up more and more tiles as it grew, but the player wouldn't specifically place each building.  The way in which you build structures, too, would be different.  The second change would be the way in which the player gained population.  Instead of simply abstractly having people come roaming in from the country side, they would be in roving, survivalist bands at the beginning which the sovereign must court.  Eventually, these bands run out, and you must rely strictly on fertility rates.

Third (and this is the biggest change) each city would have 3 special values.  Wealth, education, and magical aptitude.  These values would represent how wealthy, educated, and magically learned the citizen are.  Over time, depending on what buildings you have or resources are nearby, these values would grow.  When you build a building in your city, it will not only demand gold, but will use up some of those values.  A library would require some wealth and a good bit of scholarship.  A blacksmith would require a lot of wealth, and some scholarship.  A mage tower would require a lot of magical aptitude and some scholarship, and a lot of wealth.  These values wouldn't be spent like gold, but would be invested into that building.  So let's say your city has 500 wealth, and a blacksmith requires 100 wealth.  If you build 3 blacksmiths, your city would still have 500 wealth, but 300 would be used up with only 200 remaining for investment.  Destroy the blacksmiths, and you'd have 500 wealth again, but not the gold that you spent.  So in other word, most of the wealth of your nation isn't locked up in some abstract treasury, but is instead in the hands of your citizens.  Your tax revenue would come from the wealth score of each city, rather than simply from each citizen.

Now, what this system does is prevent the player from simply spamming specific buildings.  Want a city of scholarship and learning?  You have to cultivate one over time by building up a scholarship score.  Want a city of glitzy magical towers and sorcery?  Gotta grow that one too.  Want a city of great riches and revenue?  Well, you need to make sure you build it near critical wealth building resources.  And what if your wealth begin to collapse from broken trade treaties, incessant war, or enemy raids on your resources?  Well, if these 3 values dip below the necessary wealth to actaully support your city buildings, your buildings suffer penalties, and your city as a whole begins to look ill.  Buildings begin to look decrepid and manor houses turn to huts.  The more these values fall, the less efficient, and more sick looking, your city becomes.

Now, how your city actually appears depends on the per capita rating of each of these scores, represented by small sliders next to the number.  If your wealth is high but your population is low relative to that wealth, the city is filled with well groomed buildings and manor houses.  If your wealth is low relative to your population, then the city is unorganized, choked with filth, and filled with huts.  Likewise, a city with a very high per capita magic rating would be radiating magical energy, and it would show on the strategic map.

Now, let me explain how I would have liked to see resources managed by a city.  You would not build city tiles on resources, as is currently in beta.  Instead, your city would have a zone of influence.  Any resource within that zone of influence would be procurred by your city dwellers and exploited.  Prestige determines your zone of influence, but there are other factors as well.  First, the expansion of a zone is greatly hindered by blighted land, and for a zone to advance quickly it must be healed.  Also, hostile entities that reside on the land and unexplored dungeons exert a very negative influence on such zones as well.      

So this is a general overview which I'll ellaborate on if anyone would like to join the discussion.  I've left out all of the fine balance details for now (like the gradual tapering off of per capita values), as well as the exact role of buildings, but I've gotta get myself to work. 

 

5,375 views 5 replies
Reply #1 Top

It could work and would probably be better than the current system, but would be far more difficult to balance.

For example

Instead of simply abstractly having people come roaming in from the country side, they would be in roving, survivalist bands at the beginning which the sovereign must court. Eventually, these bands run out, and you must rely strictly on fertility rates.
End of quote

this would probably work very good for the first couple of cities but what about the later ones?

I like the idea that the available resources should be critical for the "type" of the city. Also the visual distinction between a vibrant city and a stagnating one is a great idea. Leaving the "housing" in computer hands has its merits.

 

Reply #2 Top

... every person has uniform worth throughout your empire ...
End of quote

The game so far feels like that for me also, and I suspect that the problem has its roots in GalCiv, where population are a resource to be exploited and not the semi-autonomous foundations of cultures and societies. Plus the whole calendar-for-civ-scale-games problem is in there, and no one has yet come up with a brilliant solution to enable a game that has both tactical battles and multi-generational social growth and development.

At the moment, I'm becoming inclined to the idea of semi- or fully-automated city tile management with players simply setting goals via a local governor and/or manual placement of major civic structures. But I have no idea how tactical battles are working with the current internal builds and am open to the idea that what seems like tedious click overhead in the cloth map-only phase of the beta might feel very different when we finally start seeing how city layout affects combat.

Reply #3 Top

I like this idea... Although I guess that's only natural since it seems to take some inspiration from the ideas I presented here and here.... Ok yeah that's a shamless plug but I think stardock should look at some different innovative ideas. Also I like the idea of investing portions of your cities development to be able to get certain buildings. Sounds fun to me.

Also. Total levels of a certain attribute (not just the free amount but the total) should be used to unlock what buildings have been constructed. Overall this is an awesome idea! :thumbsup:

Reply #4 Top

Quoting tenchifew, reply 1
It could work and would probably be better than the current system, but would be far more difficult to balance.

For example


Instead of simply abstractly having people come roaming in from the country side, they would be in roving, survivalist bands at the beginning which the sovereign must court. Eventually, these bands run out, and you must rely strictly on fertility rates.


this would probably work very good for the first couple of cities but what about the later ones?

I like the idea that the available resources should be critical for the "type" of the city. Also the visual distinction between a vibrant city and a stagnating one is a great idea. Leaving the "housing" in computer hands has its merits.

 
End of tenchifew's quote

Your later cities would grow from fertility rates and they would start off by recieving immigrants from your other cities, after all the of surviving bands have settled. I've presented such an idea here

 

Reply #5 Top

Totally agree with this idea 100% hopefully one of the developers reads over it because its damn good.

Since we have no control over whats being built what do we do to influence how the city evolves into say a magical city with a

low pop and high wealth as to an industrious city. The soverign should have some control some how over the development

and not just the resources in the area also what if i really need a certain building but the city out of its own course will not build it

what then?