Forms of goverments

 

Hello

I really like the 4 different forms of governments in GC2 and for those of you who know EU3 I really like the form of governments in that one also.

That got me thinking about Elemental, right now we are looking at a ruling system that is based on a dictatorship of the channeler and that is it, but as we all know different forms of governments are suited to different situations.

Within the limits of the game premise (i.e. all powerful channeler leading its people) I came up with some basic guide line for different forms of governments in Elemental.

The basic dictatorship, this is the early game method, basically if your channeler is within a certain radius of a city than that city will suffer no penalties, OTOH if your channeler is too far from a city than that city will become more rebellious/unhappy/less productive/etc etc. if the channeler is within a certain radius (that is smaller than the above mentioned one) the city will get some bonuses. This is one method to control early uber expansion.

From here we got 2 branches of government, we can move toward a more totalitarian one or a more democratic one. Both options should allow you to expand your borders farther than if you were still at the basic dictatorship rule but both should have certain bonuses and certain penalties.

Just to be clear, I'm thinking more toward a system where your governing system grow as you play, so for example at the start you change move toward feudal system to bolster your ability to train elite soldiers cheaper and for less upkeep (i.e. the nobles) and later you add serfdom to bolster your economy and give you quick bursts of cheap manufacturing powers or maybe instead of serfs you go toward yeoman and free people, on a different game you start with going toward big guilds or the thing that Rome had (sorry forgot the name http://web.stardock.net/images/smiles/themes/digicons/Worried.png )

I mentioned before EU3, I really like the "National Ideas" system that they got there, when after X research in government technology field you get a National Idea slot and can pick one, for example in warfare you could pick "National Conscripts" to get a +50% to manpower or "National Trade Policy" in State Business to get a +10% from trade etc (for a full list look here)

I think that this is something that would fit well with in elemental, each time you research one of the 5 fields (Civ, warfare, magic, adventure, diplomacy) if you pick the generic breakthrough, apart from receiving the normal bonus it will give you points toward getting a new slot for "Kingdom Idea", this ideas should be unique enough and offer new options to the faction that picks them and 50% of the should be have preconditions to unlock them ( research X and Y, have high enough diplomatic ratings with X% of the other nations, have X inns in each city, etc.)

There should be a hard cap of Idea slots per faction and it should be something like 40% of the ideas to chose from in game, so if we got 10 ideas per research field for a total of 50 ideas the hard cap should be on 20 slots.

A player would be able to change an idea for a different one any time for some sort of penalty.

 

Here are some quick ones from the top of My head:

Civilization

1.    Forest People- allow to build cities in forested areas without any penalty add production bonus to cities in forests

2.    Mountain People – same as forest people only for mountains thos two are mutually exclusive.

3.    Great builders – production bonus for stone buildings, +20% stone buildings Attributes (require research masonry).

Warfare

1.    Military Tradition - -10% to army upkeep.

2.    Great horsemen's - +10% to cavalry attack and defense +10% cost to foot soldiers.

Magic

1.    Everyday cantrips - +10% production -15% mana.

2.    Fire/Water/Eart/Air affinity – sound cool, should think about what it does.

Etc… you get the picture.

 

Sorry for the messy post, I think about this stuff while I write them down, I would love to see if you got some Ideas for Kingdome Ideas.

 

Warder

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

14,074 views 19 replies
Reply #1 Top

Considering all the other stuff in the game already, I'd prefer not to have different governments.  (There are some games where they add a lot to the game, but others where they just end up being extra, and this seems like one of those games, given that we have some channeler customization, civilization customization, and radically different uses of essence.)

Reply #2 Top

I don't think that this should be the focus of the game but it's another layer of empire building that could be cool.

Warder

Reply #3 Top

To actually flesh out the why I don't see government as a useful addition  (Since the post above was admittedly a bit sharper than I wanted.)

 

What governments/social engineering effectively do in gameplay terms if provide empire wide effects that can be chosen and changed within the game (unlike racial bonuses, which are chosen at the start).  For civilization type games, where social engineering works well, it is the only way to have these sorts of effects, and governments are quite powerful in empire wide effects compared ot other sources (civilization/race picks, large projects like wonders, research, etc.).  Elemental already has a wide variety of ways ot produce empire wide effects (Access to different resources, the choices of how ot use essence, channeler characteristics, etc.), so the effects from govertnment choices would likely easily get drowned out by the other effects, and would just add another thing to manage.

 

(It's not an interesting idea ot consider possibilities on, just something that doesn't seem ot add too much to gameplay.)

Reply #4 Top

At the very least I'd like to be able to build cities in the mountains or in the forest.

 

But having multiple government types would add layers of depth, and that's always a good thing IMO.

Reply #5 Top

The problem with different government types in games is rather than exploring how different government types actually function, you really get the developer's opinions of the different government types (they don't simulate; i.e. you could not tinker in such a game and come up with an ideal "real world" system of government.) So all you really end up with is the developer's selling you on how THEY feel about various types of government.

All that being said, I love games in general that do offer different government types and the ability to get various bonuses/penalties, but Elemental is not that game. Now leaders may choose to be Machiavellian or benevolent, harsh task masters or trying to raise everyone's morale by partying 8 days a week. But as far as form of government - I don't think anything less than absolute ruler works for Elemental.

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Denryu, reply 5
The problem with different government types in games is rather than exploring how different government types actually function, you really get the developer's opinions of the different government types (they don't simulate; i.e. you could not tinker in such a game and come up with an ideal "real world" system of government.) So all you really end up with is the developer's selling you on how THEY feel about various types of government. ...
End of Denryu's quote

You're certainly right about dev POVs being a big influence on how gov types have worked in TBS games so far, but I think "they don't simulate" is probably the bigger factor. Making government types something you could tinker with while you thought about the 'real world' (or story worlds) would mean adding significant complexity, and apparently there isn't yet a large enough potential audience to encourage a dev team to make some good modeling objects to support rich government features in a software toy.

For Elemental, while I agree in general with your second point, I think I'd rather see no government types than yet another iteration of IdeologyLabel->SomeDumbBonus(es).

Reply #7 Top

I agree GW - as I said, i don't think EWOM is a game where different government types is a plus.

Different governing STYLES, certainly. But it's a dictatorship, benevolent or otherwise.

Reply #8 Top

which is why I like my trip axis (idea) of Liberal <-> Authoritarian   and  Lawful <-> Chaotic   and Good <-> Evil

the idea is that actions in game, including decisions made in quests and random events, can lean you towards a certain direction in any one of these three axes, and that each axis has a different yet meaninful global effect on your empire.

Perhaps certain religions require certain morale axis standards ... or rather adopting a certain religion would significantly shift either one or two of your axes.

I figure the Liberal <-> Authoritarian axis would have no real impact on religions, or vice versa, but be a purely Global Bonus type system ... perhaps allowing certain types of units/equipment to be made? (used in King Arthur, prolly others)

Meanwhile the Morale Axis (Lawful Good, ect) could deal more with your diplomactic options concerning: Sovereigns, Mercenaries, Heroes, Assasins, and Questgivers

 

I mean ... a dual axis might be good from a particular morale standpoint, but the first axis I think would be best to represent the STYLE of your Dictatorship.

aka I think a Trip-Axis is the best way about it :)

Reply #9 Top

Call me a party pooper, but I really don't want any special types of government in the game. Sure, it's an additional layer of complexity, but more complexity isn't always the best. In all seriousness I haven't been ever excited about governments. I am even less interested in them in Elemental, to such degree that I wouldn't like them implemented. Why? I would like Elemental to be more 'magical' and less real-life than it is now.

Basing on the current beta and the developer plans, this game is becoming more and more like a Civilizations clone with a few spells and dragons thrown in. Sure, let the Empires have different government type than Kingdoms (together with some great differences), but for goodness sake, there are things that bring more fun than dealing with government types. I would like to see Elemental as an epic game where the magic is really noticeable. If we are to remove multiple damage effects (coming from various elements), add a family that you have to care about and government systems, then where is the epicness in all of this? People want to rise empires, not deal with fiscal tables - of course, they should care about resources supply and upkeep, but not details of every government system. People want to fight dragons but not with some mundane weapons like sword +1 ice, and units which are some small variations of Joe. Finally, people don't want to think who to 'sell' their soulless daughters to, but where to get some Aghaim's Scepter, so that Lina the Inverse will pwn some dragon. THIS is epic fantasy.

Feel free to disagree :).

Reply #10 Top

Quoting red1939, reply 9
I would like Elemental to be more 'magical' and less real-life than it is now.

Basing on the current beta and the developer plans, this game is becoming more and more like a Civilizations clone with a few spells and dragons thrown in.

...

THIS is epic fantasy.

Feel free to disagree .

End of red1939's quote

I feel free to AGREE! :yes:

Reply #11 Top

I like the suggestion of a EU3-influenced government system for fine-tuning the nature of a society (i.e. the equivalent of researching "another new national idea") though that'd be easy to just insert into a tech tree and pop out as civ bonuses.

I'd like the dictatorship vs. absolute monarchy vs. feudal monarchy vs. oligarchy vs. theocracy (or otherwise rule by any reasonable caste---e.g. magocracy) addressed.  Its understandable that some people don't want that stuff.

But at least consider a fantasy theme such as Theocracy vs. Magocracy vs. Monarchy, and if the dynasties system gets really interesting then consider if dynasties compete within a civ as feudal, or if they are strictly imperial.

Without any consideration to governments/civics, I see Elemental being pretty much a wargame like Titan.   Perhaps make it an optional setting, like the equivalent of turning off Espionage?

Reply #12 Top

Quoting red1939, reply 9
... Basing on the current beta and the developer plans, this game is becoming more and more like a Civilizations clone with a few spells and dragons thrown in. ...
End of red1939's quote

Gotta admit that this is a creeping worry for me also. Early on, there was some strong talk about how mundane stuff (weapons, city improvements, etc.) would not be as big a part of the game as the magic system. If that's still true, it looks like the magic system will need to be so complicated that it will experience something like what happened to the intial ideas for the resource system--simplification to a degree that loses fun for some of us 'hardcore' types.

For a while, I'd hoped to see mundane research have only a bare handful of goals, more or less steps to recovering the pre-cataclysm crafts and knowledge so a medieval-level society was workable again. While I agree that it can be fun to work your civ up to being able to field awesome chunks of military might, I'd actually rather see the challenges there based much more in the map than in a research tree.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting red1939, reply 9
... Basing on the current beta and the developer plans, this game is becoming more and more like a Civilizations clone with a few spells and dragons thrown in. ...
End of red1939's quote

Gotta admit that this is a creeping worry for me also. Early on, there was some strong talk about how mundane stuff (weapons, city improvements, etc.) would not be as big a part of the game as the magic system. If that's still true, it looks like the magic system will need to be so complicated that it will experience something like what happened to the intial ideas for the resource system--simplification to a degree that loses fun for some of us 'hardcore' types.

For a while, I'd hoped to see mundane research have only a bare handful of goals, more or less steps to recovering the pre-cataclysm crafts and knowledge so a medieval-level society was workable again. While I agree that it can be fun to work your civ up to being able to field awesome chunks of military might, I'd actually rather see the challenges there based much more in the map than in a research tree.

Reply #14 Top

[evil balky-forum double-post rassa-frassa]

Reply #15 Top

Quoting Mandelik, reply 10

Quoting red1939, reply 9 I would like Elemental to be more 'magical' and less real-life than it is now.

Basing on the current beta and the developer plans, this game is becoming more and more like a Civilizations clone with a few spells and dragons thrown in.
...

THIS is epic fantasy.

Feel free to disagree .


I feel free to AGREE!
End of Mandelik's quote

I disagree.

Eitherway, "political systems" or not, I think an alignment axis would be much needed and fun, and could effect quests, diplomacy, ect.

Reply #16 Top

Quoting red1939, reply 9
Call me a party pooper, but I really don't want any special types of government in the game. Sure, it's an additional layer of complexity, but more complexity isn't always the best. In all seriousness I haven't been ever excited about governments. I am even less interested in them in Elemental, to such degree that I wouldn't like them implemented. Why? I would like Elemental to be more 'magical' and less real-life than it is now.

Basing on the current beta and the developer plans, this game is becoming more and more like a Civilizations clone with a few spells and dragons thrown in. Sure, let the Empires have different government type than Kingdoms (together with some great differences), but for goodness sake, there are things that bring more fun than dealing with government types. I would like to see Elemental as an epic game where the magic is really noticeable. If we are to remove multiple damage effects (coming from various elements), add a family that you have to care about and government systems, then where is the epicness in all of this? People want to rise empires, not deal with fiscal tables - of course, they should care about resources supply and upkeep, but not details of every government system. People want to fight dragons but not with some mundane weapons like sword +1 ice, and units which are some small variations of Joe. Finally, people don't want to think who to 'sell' their soulless daughters to, but where to get some Aghaim's Scepter, so that Lina the Inverse will pwn some dragon. THIS is epic fantasy.

Feel free to disagree .
End of red1939's quote

I couldn't disagree more.

First of all, I hope Elemental won't put to much emphasis on the magical part. Don't get me wrong, it should be important, but certainly not the biggest part. One of the things I didn't really like about AoW2 and Shadow Magic was that you had to keep summoning and enchanting units as long as you were able to pay the upkeep, instead of it being something rare and significant. I hope that when my army faces something like a greater elemental, I won't have a 'not another one' reaction, but rather hope that i have some countermeasures and know that if I defeat this one I'll have dealt a significant blow to my enemy, and propably won't face another one for some time.

On the subject of governments, I hope the developers put some mechanism to tweak your civilization in the game. FfH2 is a good example. Factions in FfH2 differ a lot from each other, but you can still change your government according to your needs. To me, this is part of what makes the game interesting. One of the things that got me interested in Elemental (apart from it being a Stardock game) was that it was discribed as a game where you are the ruler of a living and breathing kingdom. Dealing with how to govern your realm seems like a natural part of that. I would be really disappointed if Elemental became some sort of 'Spell Slinging Sovereign Showdown', where the management of your civilization is a bit of an afterthought.

I'm not suggesting that the developers copy the CivIV (and SMAC before that) system, althoug they could do worse. Here's my idea; how about instead of having a list of government types to choose from (monarchy, republic, democracy, etc...), you have a few sliders that determine your stance on a number of civics.

You could for instance have a slider that determines the distribution of power between you and your nobles. On one end of the scale the sovereign has total control, but this greatly reduces efficiency in cities where he is not present, it makes your nobles unhappy, and leaves little time for your sovereigns magic studies. On the other end of the scale the nobles have a lot of power and the sovereign is little more that the chairman of the council of nobles. This would make your nobles very happy and give some economic bonuses (aswell as more free time for your sovereign), but also increase corruption, and decrease loyalty as some nobles start to wonder if they realy need you as their king. Obviously there would have to be several stages between the two extremes.

Other civic sliders could include your stance on male and female roles (patriarchy - equal rights - matriarchy), the treatment of minorities and other races (DEATH - slavery - repression - accepted - equal rights), and the rights of the 'common' population (slavery - serfdom - free choise of labour - right to found guilds). Each setting would have its own advantages and disadvantages.

This way you could further tweak your civilization to suit your needs, and I think it would make the game more interesting.

Reply #17 Top

Quoting Denryu, reply 7
I agree GW - as I said, i don't think EWOM is a game where different government types is a plus.

Different governing STYLES, certainly. But it's a dictatorship, benevolent or otherwise.
End of Denryu's quote
Saying that all dictatorships are the same type of government is just.. sad.

Reply #18 Top

I would prefer this game to not be bogged down by different government types. But if they must be in, then i'd say have it be done at the beginning like it was in GalCiv. I just don't think that changing governments in the middle of a game fits the mood of a high fantasy. For Civilization? yea fine, we are playing over thousands of years of history... But in a game like Elemental, I just don't see it.

In fact, if I had my way, I'd make it a feudal system like the one seen in the book series "A Song of Ice and Fire". I would have lords and ladies, vassals, a court, a ring of advisors, etc. I mean, this is exactly what i expected when Frogboy mentioned the series in the first place, and to be honest I haven't thought of it being anything else..

Half the time i just wish the devs would shine some light on all these things we seem to discuss to no end. I mean, like I said, I had expected the game to revolve around a feudal system, and now i'm not so sure (because there has been no clarification) I'm just getting tired of not knowing anything i guess :hugme:  

Reply #19 Top

Half the time i just wish the devs would shine some light on all these things we seem to discuss to no end. I mean, like I said, I had expected the game to revolve around a feudal system, and now i'm not so sure (because there has been no clarification) I'm just getting tired of not knowing anything i guess
End of quote

If felt similar frustration regularly, especially regarding the early plans for the magic system. But the devs really do seem to read most or all of these posts eventually and they respond directly to a poster pretty often. So my guess is that they are purposely keeping large chunks of the plan-so-far internal because they find our helpless/obssessive nattering somehow useful, at least en masse.