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I"m not the only one who thinks the tech screen sucks right?

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I"m not the only one who thinks the tech screen sucks right?

from Elemental Forums

Before I get PM's, I'm the designer of Elemental and I work at Stardock so I'm NOT flaming the game itself I'm trying to make it better.

The research screen in Elemental is not fun. It's work. It's work to use. It adds nothing to the game other than feeling like it's necessary.

I think a lot could be learned from Master of Orion.  I like the idea of researching an AREA of tech and when a milestone in that area is reached, a screen pops up and the player can choose the breakthru they want to have just uncovered.  

When researching a given area of tech (warfare, civilization, magic, diplomacy, etc.) they player would know the odds of a particular tech being available once that milestone is reached.  In addition, some very rare technologies might pop up once that milestone is reached.

For instance, maybe under warfare there's a 1% chance that a breakthru in the warfare area might allow the player to get "doom fire" (a tech for helping in sieges) but that means in most games, that tech won't be an option.

That's the kind of thing we're thinking of.  Right now, researching tech is boring and tedious. 

elemental
42,718 views 67 replies
Reply #51 from Elemental Forums Top

What I dont like at current tech screen (not neccessarily system) is that I dont have that feel that I progress, that my empire develops. In classical tech trees i have all already researched techs lined up there with some sort of (mental)pedia info on them. I actually like to see at a glance what a progress I and my poor people did! In Elemental right now all I have are cluttered medailons with circular progress bar. I think it is not rewarding enough! I know that reward is technology itself, but it should be somehow nicely represented in research screen as well. (on a side note - jeez, how I loved building my palace in old Civs :) )

Perhaps the idea of medailons can be used further to create some sort of bubble graph? Give their position and size a meaning. Also relations would be possible too.  Dunno if it would be usable at all though. But right now tech screen is just a plain list with some neat graphics (something we were promised we wont have!)

Reply #52 from Stardock Forums Top

I would also like to see a Alpha Centari style, area of reseach effort. I really enjoyed adapting my play to account for what techs were discovered. If you emphisized warfare you could still get ecology techs, just less likely. It also helped when playing AI, since we were working under similar conditions and I wasn't tempted down a preset path of research each game.

Even with SMAC, this method was still only an option, since some people wanted absolute control over the process, but I'd like to see this sort of option available in Elemental as well. It takes some of the micro out of research and gives it a more natural feel.

I've also liked the idea of splitting the difference - offer two techs to choose from (based on your emphisis). The one you didn't choose may pop up later, so you're never locked out of a particular tech.

Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #53 from Elemental Forums Top

Probability based-tech aquisition (as opposed to visible and planned) could be an option, I suppose.

Either way, I would want for environ-mental/Situational techs and hidden techs to be implemented, where people can choose to tech to either adapt to their environment ... or choose the more basic tech to invasively change their environment. IF you wanted you could have desert-people, jungle-people, tundra people, ect. Only one of course, and depending on your starting position.

I do like Raven X's idea of "Tech customization as You Go" where certain techs which are utterly opposite, and open up a new branch, will block each other upon completion. AKA you can research Increased Morale for Peasants, or you can Increase Increased Strength for Proffesional armies, and each opens a tree for either Peasant warfare or Professional warfare, but you cannot do both.

Reply #54 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting seedrat, reply 52
Even with SMAC, this method was still only an option, since some people wanted absolute control over the process, but I'd like to see this sort of option available in Elemental as well. It takes some of the micro out of research and gives it a more natural feel.

I've also liked the idea of splitting the difference - offer two techs to choose from (based on your emphisis). The one you didn't choose may pop up later, so you're never locked out of a particular tech.
End of seedrat's quote

Quoting Tasunke, reply 53
Either way, I would want for environ-mental/Situational techs and hidden techs to be implemented, where people can choose to tech to either adapt to their environment ...
End of Tasunke's quote

Thank you, good to see some of us can agree on one thing here.. ^_^

 

Reply #55 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting krejci, reply 51
I actually like to see at a glance what a progress I and my poor people did!
End of krejci's quote

From the main map interface look at the bottom right bar. It shows your progress to the next tech milestone for the tech area you're researching.

Reply #56 from Elemental Forums Top

From the main map interface look at the bottom right bar. It shows your progress to the next tech milestone for the tech area you're researching.
End of quote

He is talking about overall, not just on the tech currently being researched.

Reply #57 from Elemental Forums Top

Naysayers to random tech progression need to keep in mind 2 things. 1 this is a very simple beta (compared to the main game) and implementing/reverting new systems are relatively cheap, our task is to find what works. Second is that randomness does not mean indiscriminate randomness, it will always be weighted heavily in favour of not damning anyone to RNG hell (if random is done right that is).

With that said, I'm with stupored, in reply 36, in that randomness in tech progression goes hand in hand with the ability to gather intelligence on your rivals. By knowing what your rival is up to you should, relatively easy, either be able to get the same tech as him or get access to countermeasures.

Reply #58 from Elemental Forums Top

Well I don't have the "answer" on exactly how research should work but I do have some things I would like to see.

1) Some randomness, but don't go crazy with it.  Also the randomness should be smart.  Some techs are more valuable then others and you don't want pure luck to give potential great advantages/disadvantages to players.  What I would suggest is giving each tech a value and determining at the start of the game which random techs a player gets (but don't tell the player).  The value of each nations techs should be roughly equivilent (maybe +-2% or something).  Don't just say that you have a 1% chance of getting this rare tech.

2) Each nation has core techs it will always get every game but these techs are not necessarily the same for each civilization.  For example a nation that has advantages in farming would have "some advanced farming tech" in it's tree every game.  For other nations this would be a random tech they might get.  This will make each nation more unique and interesting.

3) Would like to be able to research more than one thing at a time.

4) Would like to see techs that have multiple prerequisites.

5) I like your current idea of infinite technologies. Definitely try and make that work.

6) New interface, the current one is pretty cumbersome.

 

Reply #59 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Rishkith, reply 55

Quoting krejci, reply 51I actually like to see at a glance what a progress I and my poor people did!
From the main map interface look at the bottom right bar. It shows your progress to the next tech milestone for the tech area you're researching.
End of Rishkith's quote

What i ment was ability to see some great picture, which would show how awesome I did in whole game (researchwise), something I can look at for a while with "nostalgia" :)  Something which adds depth, story and some identification with current game. Now I just see bunch of medailons, no PAST progress except of circular progress bar

Reply #60 from Elemental Forums Top

MOO system was fun. Even if some techs ddidn't show up in your tech tree, they might appear in someone else's. So you could manage to trade/steal techs from others if you were unable to find it yourself. The problem is these were often uber-techs (black hole generators...)

As for the current tech GUI, it's not easy to read.

Maybe bars a la MOO which provide information on the current tech level in each domain would be more readable, but then you'd lack details. Why not allow zooming in on the tech tree? You'd have bars when looking from afar, saying Military 75, Social 42, Magic 18, and if you zoom in on the tech tree, you can see the details, like Military 75 is actually a lstring of pearls: A bar with rounds here and there giving detailed techs that you know, and maybe techs that you could research but bypassed would appear when zooming closer, but greyed out.

I suppose it would end up looking ugly but that's just a suggestion.

Reply #61 from Elemental Forums Top

As far as random techs go it could be as simple as "Shuffling tech cards" and drawing a certain number of them before the game.  They can be listed in tiers and you get so many of each tier.  it's not rocket surgery.

Reply #62 from Elemental Forums Top

rocket surgery! open that shit up! (awesome center redux)

Reply #63 from Elemental Forums Top

Linking this in both threads as they seems to have developed into the same topic. It is Greg Costikyan's "Randomness: Blight or Bane?" presentation at GDC09. It's a long but very good read on randomness in games, and not just computer games, but games all the way to pre stone age era. A must read for anyone on either extreme on the random vs. skill debate.

Reply #64 from Elemental Forums Top

I loved MoO2 Tech system. It meant that not everyone could get every tech available (unless the race had the creative trait) and diplomacy, subterfuge  and conquest was needed to get techs you didn't have.

Instead of random techs, i thinking more of special techs or secret techs. These are 'one off' techs that dont lie on the path of normal techs. If you spend time researching this tech it meant you would be delaying the progress of your normal tech tree. The player would then have to determine wether it is worth the effort investing in research of the special tech.

Special techs could be techs unique to each race/sovereign. The specials could have certain prerequisite normal techs to unlock them.

Other specials could be unlocked to whoever is the first to research a key milestone tech.

Secret techs could be techs that are unlocked via completing certain important quests or game events. Secret techs could also be unlocked randomly by exploring ancient ruins etc.

While specials can be known beforehand on the tree, secret techs will be hidden from the tech tree.

 

 

Reply #65 from Elemental Forums Top

Instead of random techs, i thinking more of special techs or secret techs. These are 'one off' techs that dont lie on the path of normal techs. If you spend time researching this tech it meant you would be delaying the progress of your normal tech tree. The player would then have to determine wether it is worth the effort investing in research of the special tech.
End of quote
Excellent!!!!

Reply #66 from Stardock Forums Top

How about an hybrid between fixed tech and random tech?

While we're at it, we could even make certain techs dependant on acquired ressources. After all, how can one learn to "farm" bees when none are around?  :)

Reply #67 from Elemental Forums Top

@ Jayelef, take a look at the most recent "Journal" post ... makes awesome strides towards research which really out-dates the current threads for tech criticism (although there are newer posts on how to deal with "grey techs" and the like ... I for one don't want to be UNABLE to take archery no matter how long its been, even if it takes sooooo long to tech that its just plain silly. I guess we could have grey techs which fix the cost of such techs, which I don't really mind b/c even if that helps out with getting those basic techs ... the techs they open up for you "the new ones you might be after" will start out as green, meaning full cost for your next breakthrough ;)

(I think researching greys should not count towards the breakthrough meter ... but thats assuming they have to be green for 8+ breakthroughs to turn grey)