I"m not the only one who thinks the tech screen sucks right?

I don't like the idea of 'choosing' techs, since this kiind of undermines the whole idea of tech researching.  Perhaps you could have a random thing (although weighted by which faction you are) where you get selection of bonus techs to research - say someone has an idea "Joe Bloggs the eminent alchemist has published interesting theories relating to smelting of new forms of iron.  Do you wish to pursue research into his ideas?".  Possibly this could have a percentage chance of failing, ie the idea comes to nothing, although in this case the research time should be quite short otherwise it wouldn't be worth the gamble.

I like this idea.  I would just make sure that the rare techs do not equal a sure victory.

I respectfully disagree concerning your opinion frogboy. I think the tech tree is going in the right direction. I like the way it is presented, I like the fact you research fundamental techs that branch out and get more and more specific. Ilike the fact that i know what i'm getting when i research a tech.

I think "rare" and random techs that only pop up once in a few games would be a nice adition to the game and would enhace replayability. But I don't like the idea "you have a 1% chance of discovering a rare tech" . Imo these techs should be available to all. If added you should be able to see them before hand to be able to plan accordingly.

A random tech tree for all players at the begining of the game, yes that would be awesome. Random techs for just one player, no that would spoil the fun by adding a useless element of chance.

Of course this is just my opinion and other players might disagree with it.

This reminds me of my friend who simply cannot stop playing his custom Telepathic+Creative race in MoO2. This combo undermines most of the strategy in the game, replacing it with predictability and simplicity (and monotony, if you ask me).

Personally, I'm not in favour of having a traditional tech tree at all (MoM didn't have one), since it tends to encourage people to develop an optimal strategy and never really deviate from it.

What worked so well with MoM's spell research is that the spells you had available to research were randomly chosen (and presented in a random order) and thus different every game, making it difficult to base all of your decisions on a strict plan.

It's analogous to randomly generated vs. static maps. If you didn't have randomly generated maps and simply began in the exact same spot on the same map every game, you'd quickly develop an optimal strategy and follow it every single game.

What we want to do here is present different ways of doing tech and let people play it and decide.

I know it may seem otherwise but implementing different game mechanics like this is not time consuming.

I like the tech mechanics, but I do not like the tech GUI.

I challenge players to open up all the available techs and say if they still like it when the screen is cluttered with medallions and you're mis-clicking on them all the time because of the way they float around in there.

Though I will say the tech screens and mechanics in MoO1 and Alpha Centauri were two of my favorite to date and aren't bad. The subject of random techs is a touchy one and I would recommend having it be a gameplay OPTION rather than forced.

Stupid Question. What does RNG stand for?

RNG = Random Number Generator.

As for the tech screen...it's okay. It can be improved of course.

HIGHLY agree frogboy!

A new design would make tech fun, as it is now its just the same old "min-max" tech rush you get in every 4x

I never expected the final tech system to look at all like what we have now.

we aren't talking about scientists, we're talking about alchemists and such.

I wholeheartedly agree with this post, Frogs. Tech trading is a problem with this kinds of a system though - I think in GalCiv, much of the point of the exclusive tech stuff was lost due to being able to just grab all the disallowed techs from your neighbour. I do like the concept f tech trading, so I'm not sure what to do about this.

Maybe you would just be able to trade the ability to research the tech - then you would still have to research it yourself. This method could perhaps be made considerably expensive, so you would have to think twice before putting your other research on hold in order to grab the techs you missed out on.

And why not something like in "real" life ? You start researching civilization. You don't know how long it will take, you just have a "problem" : I want more housing, I want a way to defend myself. And the game would pop a tech that would fit what you want.

You want more defence ? Based upon "basic modfiers", you can be proposed enhanced armor, city defences or magic defense.

Basic modifiers would be things that happenned in your kingdom : if some of your cities got razed, you get more chances to develop city defences. you have a lot of cities near mountains ? You get higher chance to develop a way to entrench yourself. Got lots of shards ? You'll probably research a magical way to defend yourself.

Sorry, I haven't even played the beta so I might be talking nonsense here but ...

Just add "Focus" whereby you can choose how much to focus on the problem in hand.  If you choose to be totally focused you get what you pay for - but it costs more.  The less focused you choose to be the higher the probability that you get something different (maybe better, maybe worse) - but its cheaper and takes a bit longer.

Bonus's could affect your ability to focus and you could start out with a relatively poor focusing ability.  This would mix up the start game a bit and maybe help avoid the "optimum opening play" that a I think lot of strategy games suffer from.

I think the mechanics behind tech are Okay at the moment, but the GUI is an absolute mess.  For one thing it's not really clear what the different images mean.  Who do  the various troop techs have that guantlet image for instance, why are they items you can research and not results of research?  Those in particular seem like they just don't belong.  Just have the training qualities discovered via a military/barracks path and be done with it.  Deciding how techs will relate to each other and which should be something you research and what is just a result of research is vital.  Another thing to consider is whether some techs should have multiple pre-reqs (my vote: YES).

I definitely agree that if there is going to be any significant randomization it needs to be for the whole game, not individual empires.  In most games that have it, random techs per empire seemed like it was mostly there to make you trade with others.  I don't personally like random tech, but I can see some potential there in keeping the game fresh.  I would make that a game option where you could have all, none or random "rare" techs.

I can't think of many games where I thought researching techs was fun.  The only one that really comes to mind is Ascendency, which is an extremely old DOS space TBS game.  It was mostly fun because of the outlandish tech names, and the quasi-3D tech tree which showed you more techs as you got them.  I'm not sure that the tech screen is really something you want to worry about being "fun" though.  It needs to do it's job clearly and that's about it.  I can however, think of many games where the screens when you got new tech were fun, MoO and Alpha Centauri come to mind as among the best in this regard.  Researching tech should be clear and effecient.  Getting tech should be fun!

I was just playing ascendancy for the first time. I think Elemental's medallions as nodes on a 3D web would work, especially because you could do interesting things - multiple requisites, multiple connections between techs with the paths between them opened up at different times. Be able to view the opening 3D tech space at the start but not the advanced techs, like MoM with spells.

But also you could add other items as nodes, with them visable or greyed out/hidden if not present. So as someone mentioned, owning a mine could be an icon in the 3D techspace providing a connecting line to iron working as a prerequisite, but also events could also add a point on the tech space... a 'razed city' medallion, 'empire destroyer', 'dragon slayer', 'plague', 'Amazing Travelling Bard', "Prophet of doom born"... anything would be possible. But you could tinker with the settings, how long a connection you could see prior to researching, how advanced if at all you could research a tech or how fast if you only had one or two of 4 prerequisites. So, if you had randomisation how much would you see initially? you could see the first link perhaps or the first 1/2 page of the 3D space, but not the identity of threads beyond that. Untill your knowledge goes up that is.

(perhaps this should so in ideas, but the topic's here so here it'll go)

Sword of the Star's tech system is one of the major reasons why that game is so great.  I am very glad to see that you are heading in a similar direction.

I'm definately thinking more along the lines of what Frogboy is thinking.  Basically, there are a good number of techs that are there almost every single game, and then a plethora of goodie techs that appear occassionally and have a specific niche value. 

I think, however, that hidden techs should have certain triggers that raise the probability of them being visible and researchable.  These triggers could be almost anything.  Hidden triggers could be anything from certain buildings that you own, to soldier types that you employ, to dungeons that you've romped, or the number of times you've cast spells from a certain school.  

For instance, there might be a hidden tech called "Iron Wood Spears" which has a 1 percent chance of appearing at a specified point on the research tree for every lumber mill that you control.  In other words, you are more likely to get more hidden techs related to woodworking if you are an empire that employs a lot of wood working, more likely to get more hidden techs related to alchemy if you use a lot of alchemy, etc.  Besides, it would be silly to gain the "Alchemist's Fire" hidden tech if you don't have an Alchemy infrastructer.  One, because it would be coming out of no-where and; two, you wouldn't have the infrastructure to put it to good use.  

In the above case, there might be a total X number of hidden techs in the game, some of which might be discovered by two or three or four different sovereigns and some never at all during the span of the game (if not many people build Scholar's Guilds--- which is the trigger for "Dancing Quills"--- it's unlikely anyone will discover the hidden techs that uses a Scholar's Guild as a trigger.)

Another twist might be that only 1 sovereign might be able to get a specific special tech.  It would work by counting up the total number of triggers currently in the game from all opponents, (let's say in this case lumber mills) calculate the percentage that each sovereign has and then distribute the tech to one of those sovereigns, with higher percentages attracting higher odds of being the recipient. 

A very legitimate concern.  However, if hidden techs are common enough, then you can predictably get a certain amount each game with minimal deviation, and your concern won't be an issue.  Sure, you might get super lucky one game and get a bunch, but you can also get super lucky in a game and win a lot of battles that you wouldn't have otherwise won normally or get really lucky with starting resources or "goodie huts."  Hidden techs aren't all that different. 

One of the things I like about Sword of the Stars is the tech tree (not the display they use, but the concepts). They have a lot of 'core' techs, that everyone gets. but a lot of random techs that each race may, or may not, get. For instance the Hivers have good chance at heavy armour, but are highly unlikely to get high tech beams. Humans are more likely to get the best dumbfire torpedo techs but average in most other places.

Anyway, food for thought. It makes for some interesting games ("So...I dont' have point defense - but I do have disruptors and antimatter warheads!").

Hm... yeah, there'd have to be a lot of work put toward none of these techs becoming too unbalanced.  But that's a balance issue not too unsimilar with having to balance game features like goodie huts or resources that are an intermediate distance from a player's starting location.

However, I for one would find an internally balanced tech tree increadibly dull to research. Where's the thrill of progression?