Yeah, that could be tricky to navigate.  I guess it also depends on how much time ellapses in any specific segment of the battle.  If each second in the battle corresponds to a real second... well, you can see the implications. 

Well, in a different portion of my post I said he'd be a really tough creature with a very powerful but very slow attack. If he only had 1 ATK, then he would hardly ever deal any damage at all to anything except units with very low defense. And he'd be completely worthless against any unit with 10+ DEF.

Although... if HP also affects the effective rate of attack, then 1 ATT might even be too much! If he's fighting a bunch of peasants, each of whom have say 1 HP... If he has 5k HP he'd slaughter huge quantities of peasants. a 5k:1 HP ratio, corresponding to relative attack speeds, would result in massive peasant losses.

Coupling 'survivability' with 'relative attack speed' seems like it'd make it impossible to have creatures that do large quantities of damage at a very slow rate, and also be able to still incur damage against the very powerful units of the game like dragons. To accomplish the latter, a high ATT is needed. But to accomplish crazy survivability, a high HP is needed. But the combination of high ATT and crazy HP is an insane damage-dealing machine with ridiculous survivability. You cannot get one without the other...

Oh I get it now. It sounds good, however it should work like this imo:

This rule [HP reduced = less effective in combat] should only "be valid", if it's a group of units. Example:10 swordsmen in a group -> a couple of swordsmen gets killed -> "HP" reduced to let's say..50% -> 5 swordsmen remains alive -> the group will be less effective in combat.

However, what if it's a single creature, like a troll or dragon for example? If it's gets damaged, should it be less effective in combat? I say no.

That seems like a pretty good solution, Demiansky, I like it.

In fact it works very much like the way I'm starting to want magic resistances to work. If most units won't have magic resistances, it is not worth displaying a half-dozen different resistances scores that will nearly always be 0. Using modifiers analogous to your idea here would allow for magic resistances in all their glory but without causing a visual mess where it doesn't actually add anything (in the case of zero-resistance troops). Likewise here, the proposed combat system seems like it will in general work pretty well in most cases, and the exceptions can be dealt with accordingly.

Edit: credit where credit is due. I just noticed that Sarudak had a very similar idea earlier in the thread that I somehow missed.

Lol, sorry I missed it, the way it was worded led me to think you meant something else.  Yes, the modding potentials of this method are very large indeed.  And as pidgeon mentioned, magic resistances can be made to work with spells and spell resistance too.  A spell might have a "fire damage" "box trait" that specifies what kind of damage the spell is doing.  Conversely, a unit might have the "fire resistance trait" which gives a unit a specific advantage against spells that have the "fire damage" trait.  Like Sarudak alluded to, interchangeable and customizeable scripts for every kind of effect that you might want to create yourself, which produces huge modding potential. 

Yes definately.  I can see different traits having a sort of World of Warcraft like icon system where you could apply any one of thousands of icons to whatever trait you might be creating a well as make your own.  And each specific script could be combined with any other particular script.  For instance, you could have a "water strider" trait which gives a unit water walking and increased speed.  You could have a "rugged hillman" trait which gives +5 hitpoints but -25 percent XP gain.  

Every element of physics in the game could be made a property to be added to a trait.  In theory, you could have a trait like "slave driver" which your sovereign or hero could gain, which gives a production percentage boost to building construction and a hapiness loss in the city that the trait bearer is posted.  You would basically be taking a script from the lumber mill building and adding it to the trait.  Or you could make a trait like "dedicated researcher."  In this case, you'd take a script from city population qualities and add it to the trait.

Well, if it IS tied together, then specialty abilities Like Lumbering and Whirlwind-Devil should probably coded in, usable as a modder source, as well as allowing said values to be altered (to make other such traits). A minor issue though. For the most part simply having more hitpoints makes more sense to me ... in an odd sort of way. Of course, in the system I am used to, most units have 1 HP, while elite "base units" have 2 HP, and a general could have as many as 10 or 20 HP (but usually less than 10), and all general bodyguards had 2 HP. I think War Chariots might of had 3 HP for some odd reason, while Chariot Archers had 2 HP.

Regardless of where I am conceptually "coming from" I don't mind the new HP/Strength system, although I think there should be a "speed" stat. I think having a speed stat is A) already going to exist, and B ) could represent the relative rate of attack based upon HP.

For instance, having low speeds would imply 1 attack regardless. (or 1 for every 100 hp), while having extremely high speeds could mean 1 attack for every 5 hp. Or something like that.

It could be a very simplified system, where speed is from 1-10 (or it could be called agility, and movement could be separate), where 1 speed has 100% slow, 2 speed has 80% slow, 3 has 70, 4 has 60, 5 has 50, 6 has 40, 7 has 30, 8 has 20, 9 has 10, and 10 has 5% slow. Where the percentage is 1 attack per round based on that many HP in relation to whatever 100% ends up being. We could have 100% to be 100hp, or we coudl have 100% be as low as 20HP, where an agility of 10 would net you 10 attacks with 20 hp.

Now, Obviously there are more sophisticated ways of making the system work. In any event, I think we should try it out at least into the next beta, where there will theoretically be multiplayer battle-betas. In this case, we can address the various elements of battle with a little experience using the new system under our belts, before we simply think that HP is a "health" mechanism.

I would like to see the Strength/HP system work. I do hope that morale, at least, is also added in. (with endurance being the other one, which is slightly less important than morale, but still quite important)

Will be interesting to see how this hp or 'strength' system will work.  Personally I like having attack be separate from damage, and defense separated from protection.  This way you can have someone who is really good at hitting things, but doesn't damage much with each hit, or someone who is really good at avoiding hits (high defense) but if he doesn't have armor (low protection), so if he does get hit, it hurts, and vice verca.

Seems to me the dragon should have very high protection, but relatively low defense, since it's really not that hard to hit a dragon.  This will require then someone who can do a lot of damage, but doesn't necessarily have to be very precise with his hits to hurt the dragon.

Personally, I kinda like the system in Dominions for example, where a more experienced person gets higher attack (hits more accurately) and higher defense (can dodge hits), but doesn't do any more damage or get better protection unless he's better equipped (and where hit points are relatively unchanged as they are tied to how 'big' you are).  But I'll keep an open mind and see how this HP mechanism works out, as it might accomplish something similar.

I think the operating assumption there was that Robin Hood never met Merlin, and didn't have a magical bow of acid and volcanic arrows of melting (or nuclear weapons while you're at it). The fact is if you give a unit that isn't able to scratch a dragon such incredible equipment, then in all likelihood that would transform said unit into a a unit that would indeed be able to hurt the dragon.

So I don't really see where you're going with that little anecdote.

Heh, I brought up the same argument not long ago, and I concluded that in the end that doesn't really bother me. Well, having an elite soldier with 1000 HP when peasants have just 1 would bother me, but I don't think we're meant to read too much into the numbers. Personally, I think so long as HP of regular units is kept under control (within a fairly small range, preferably not really ranging far above 10), then it doesn't bother me. I've been convinced that it isn't fun when your Uber elite troops walk onto the battle field and then get fried just as easily as everybody else; they represent a significant investment and it is not fun to see them crumple just as easily as a peasant - particular under something that will be as common as magic! (This also allows high-damage single-target (or small-area) spells to really have different uses from low-damage, many-target spells). Not to mention of elite troops are just as susceptible to magic, particularly offensive magic, as the lowly rabble, then the counter to elite troops will become magic - no ifs ands or buts. And that's not really any fun.

im pretty sure the only thing to get to 1000 HP will be the SOVEREIGN!!!! (and perhaps the ever-rare Groglock)

That being said, im sure some Spells will have an Attack value (like earth and Air spells, and certain ice/fire spells) while others will simply ignore defense and do damage directly to the HP. Elite units should ALWAYS have a better chance at surviving spells. it just makes a game BETTER!

I see early fire-arms being inaccurate, low range, expensive .... but requiring very little training (peasant hordes) and bullets (if they hit) to ignore defense and directly damage the HP.

Well-trained musket men will be able to form a box-formation Napoleon style (or ranks Civil War style) .... and perhaps someone will be lucky enough to get smooth-bore rifles ... and eventually perhaps we will see rifled weapons. The only thing this will improve is range, accuracy, and rate-of-fire. Damage and Ignore defense is the same for all guns. Im just throwing it out there on the basis that we might have guns and cannons. Now on the realm of cannons, I think hollow shot should have a large area of attack, and granting an Attack value, probably equivalent to some mid-level earth spell, due to flying pieces of molten shrapnel (not a guaranteed kill) ... however, Solid shot will be single-target (small area) and ignore defense like the guns do.

Anyways, these are my two cents. Probably would have to progress quite far upon the Civilization, Military, (and maybe Diplomacy) tech trees to get access to gunpowder and Firearms ... and probably would have to pursue a very specialized path along the Civilization techs, to get the stuff that unlocks gunpowder for Military.