Wintersong Wintersong

Dude, where are my Women? (Wall of Text (TM))

Dude, where are my Women? (Wall of Text (TM))

TL;DR: Are there any women in the game appart from Heroines and/or monsters and/Sovereignesses?

Dude, where are my Women? (Wall of Text(TM))

TL;DR

Are there any women in the game appart from Heroines and/or monsters and/Sovereignesses?

If the answer is yes, which are the plans for them / what can we expect?

WoT:

Single white man looking for...

Women. Bastly ignored in games except for Amazon roles, scantily clad heroines and similar things.

I like TBSs in general and I consider cities one of the most fundamental parts of any strategy involving empire building and all that stuff. And yet, cities are always kept as simple as possible. I know it's a matter of macro/micro issue, specially if you get like some dozens of cities in big maps. But the same as combat or magic deserve some complex mechanics, I do think that city deserve that too. Yes, balance, fun and controlled micro should be a priority but it'd be nice to the cores of our empires to be something more than a gold/troops/research factories whose only drawback might be some Morale and/or Cultural problems.

To have a city we need a place where to place it (d´oh!). Once we have the location, we need people to inhabit (for which, the place must be able to sustain life of that kind... obviously). We could have a city full of machomen and no one else. Our population grow for that city would be based on inmigration of other machomen to the city and/or the magical creation of other machomen by the Sovereign, as machomen cannot naturally breed with other machomen.

And altough migrations are nice to have population moving, there will come the time in which migrations are no longer possible or not significant enough (maybe all the machomen of the world are already in your city!!!). That means that in time, your population in the city is going to stop increasing and even start decreasing as machomen get old and die. (another mechanics ignored)

So we need to find the ways to make sure that new machomen populate the world as sucesors of our current machomen. And biologically speaking that means to find another being that can allow the reproduction of the machomen: women. If you convince the machomen of the advantages of mating with women, then you are going to have the best mechanic to increase your population in your city.

So you need women. That means that women live in the city (you are not going to have them in a cave and "use them when needed" right?). Yet where are they? I'm going to ignore other games and focus in the most interesting one: Elemental.

In this sweet game each individual I take from the city, is a citizen less living and producing there. Which is fine and interesting. Problem is: only men? You know, I can take all the population in the first turn and what do I get? All men. I can keep syphoning the population each turn into troops in training and all of them are... men!!!! (you sure you don't keep women in a cave?)

I know that we still have lots of placeholders but that seems totally wrong. It makes me think that the true population in the city isn't the one told to us. It cannot be because I can spend hundreds of turns taking population into militar units and population still increases. Too many immigrations? Population not considered when taxing and/or considerating able people?

If the population we are told isn't real that means that some population isn't being counted. Which kind of population could be ignored when talking about taxes/research/recruiting? Well, kids would be the most obvious choice. I don't think we are seeing kid armies in the game. Who else? Maybe old men and/or disabled people. They simply would not make usefull soldiers (in theory...). And then we have women. They are not considered as possible soldiers (or tax payers!!!).

If women are part of the population (even if we were to forbid them to join the army), they should appear in the population count. It should matter. So if in theory you forbid women to join the army and the population in your city is of 100 (and supposing a 50%/50% ratio of male/female population), that would mean that we could only recruit 50 soldiers from that city. Which makes more sense.

Problems? If we must consider women, why not also kids and old people? (let's suppose there are no disabled people or if you feel Fallen, imagine your population being spartan in nature) For one, I'd say that at least kids don't pay taxes and it's unlikely that you are using them in war or mining iron... And old people? We suppose that no so may people reaches old age (the conditions are not like in our world, really) and those who do are not significant enough to really consider them.

Back to women again. So we take them into the population count, so what now? Well, if we are to count women as part of our mechanics then it must be meaningful. First impact of women as part of the population? Population increase.

Let's suppose that you start in a tiny island very far away from the mainland. In this extreme case, and supposing that immigrants doesn't appear magically in the island (or are expert sailors or something), the population in our city will only increase for a time thanks to migrations and then it'll stop as no more roaming people remains in the island. It'll depend from that moment in the men and women in the city to make sure that population at least mantains itself.

One fertile woman and one fertile man are needed to start reproducing the population. If you don't have at least of each you better thinking of magical cloning or to go Radagast or something. One fertile woman and twenty fertile men are as the previous case in reproduction potential as you only have one able women to get pregnant and give birth to the new generation. Twenty fertile women and one fertile man would be better than the two previous cases because the number of pregnancies are higher and the population could reproduce faster. Even then, a higher number of fertile men would be need because of genetic diversity.

This means that our city has two ways to increase population:

  • Immigrations: people leaving wherever they were living to join your city. It's strenght depends of people living in other places and how attractive are the conditons of your city to them to make them move (if possible). Can be strong at first but should decrease over time and only increase in puntual situations.
  • Births: to increase the population of a city through births we need a good balance of women/men in it. As long as we keep as many women as men in the city, the population should increase over time (we suppose that the reproduction tendencies try to increase population instead of sustaining it). Having more women than men could mean a "bonus" in population increase (let's ignore practices like poligamy, infidelities and the like, we just get the bonus for reasons not specified, ok? And not big, just a simple one) while having less women than men would make the increase not possible and would lead to a decrease of the population.

To allow women to join the army could be considered a mistake. After all, who else can give birth? As I previously said, you would only need one fertile man while women... you would need some. But there might be reasons as why women should be allowed to join the army. Be it lack of men in the city during a war, special requiriments for certain types of units (let's suppose a Unicorns' based cavalry or that the Sovereigness only allow women to be channelers) or maybe we have too many women around and don't want to affect more the population increase ratios.

New options should be open now too. When attacking a city, you may not only conquer it for example, you may be able to kidnap some of their women and add them to your population. Well, you should be able to kidnap men too but kidnapping their women could potentially hurt them more. These kind of new tactics would be quite important for civilizations like Amazons. Be them Amazons that only admit men in their ranks or in very low numbers, they would depend greatly of immigrations and the freeing (kidnap?) of other women. (or maybe the machomen trying to free the machomen trapped by the enemies!)

But Amazons would be an example of exception to the populations. If they were to get extreme and only allow women then they would need a special mechanism that reflects it in their populations. Which makes me belive that if having women in population is already a no-no, extremist Amazons are even less possible. But they must be considered.

At this point, probably even before this point, someone is asking: "If you want female units in the game, why not just have the possibility of selecting the gender of the unit when designing it but leave the population as genderless?" That would be a nice option that would make me happy (guys dressed as Valkyrjas is not my idea of epic!) but it's not what I'm really talking about (but we better be able to do that or else... :P ). For some people this game might be just about war and/or economy and/or magic. Sue me for desiring some social mechanics in it (don't get me started with spionage too). And whoever dares to say something along the lines of: "Go play the Sims" is going to lose some face (in my eyes). I'm, after all, just throwing some ideas out there that could improve the game... and I started this wall of text some months ago. Consider it a remix, reduced and a bit polished version (with things left out due to extension) of the original version (which I lost).

I dislike complex systems that don't really add nothing useful. Not sure if adding women to the population could really make a difference. But sure as the death of our sun one day is that cities need something more to them. If I have to write a wall of text (seems that I'm unable to write anything that isn't one, sorry) about social dynamics, cultural clashes and that stuff... that's going to hurt. XD

37,356 views 58 replies
Reply #26 Top

Perhaps because most tactical battle games are extremely linear, get quite boring, and more often than not have terrible AI?

I could mention a few more reasons, but I think the availablity for your custom-made, experience point driven units, perhaps plus the sovereign, battling enemies in a good system ... is something you will find NO WHERE else.

Personally I shrink away from the Auto-Calculate with more celerity than a wheezing homicidal leper.
End of quote
Don't get me wrong, I want good TB, but I just don't think this game (or any other TBS) should be about TB to the exclusion of all else.

Hooray for moral progress! Instead of stripping the clothing off our fantasy women, we're turning them -- literally -- into the reproductive organs of the state.
End of quote
Well, change does have to hapen kinda slowly..... I for one am for a much more egalitatian pop/recruitment system, but at least there aren't any "night elves" here.......

Reply #27 Top

Quoting keithLamothe, reply 2
I also request reasonable modesty, I'd like to be able to play the game with my family.
End of keithLamothe's quote

 

I immedietly thought you to be a religious american and when I checked your profile I was right :grin:

 

If your wife objects to scantily clad women then that's because she's jealous. I can't imagine kids complaining. If they got questions then you just explain that gamemakes want young males (which are the gamebuying majority) to see the game.

If YOU got objections though....then you've been feminized and you need to snap out of it by trying to behave like a man.

The only complaint I'd consider valid is not wanting your daughters to see it but then again they see that type of women all the time on TV, magazines and adposters around the city.

 

I didn't mention this before since it sounds so excusing, but I'll type it anyway.

 

I support women being portrayed to their full capabilities but it's fun to see hot chicks scantily clad :D . But I would prefer to see men & women portrayed to their own fullest capability like in Lord of the Rings where the woman fights alongside the men.

Reply #28 Top

@Campaiger that is so wrong on so many levels. It´s not about modesty it´s about the stupidity of having half naked female warriors. I have nothing against nudity, but not in a combat enviroment. The next time i see the typical naked breast plate armor with high heels i am going on a rage #:( .

 

 

Reply #29 Top

Quoting zigzag, reply 25
Hooray for moral progress! Instead of stripping the clothing off our fantasy women, we're turning them -- literally -- into the reproductive organs of the state.
End of zigzag's quote

Welcome to a world where biologically speaking they are nothing more than that for the state (well, they are also tax payers). The negative effects of women using their right not to have babies are quite doccumented and one of the effect is the aging of the population pyramid and the need of immigrants to counter its effects with their numbers and reproduction habits (that produce more offspring than those of the "advanced" world). Let's ignore racists and their reactions to this event in this topic.

Also, your argument could have a weight (currently none) if you were also to complain about how we exploit thousands of people to do our will, forcing them to die in our name in battles they don't care about, forcing them to work non stop, bend the nature to fit our needs without caring about the enviroment and all that stuff. Glad I didn't talk about black women so no one can say something about racism... d'oh!:P

Really.:troll:

Reply #30 Top

The negative effects of women using their right not to have babies are quite doccumented and one of the effect is the aging of the population pyramid and the need of immigrants to counter its effects with their numbers and reproduction habits 
End of quote

An other option would be capturing the women of the enemy (and killing the men), you old testament stuff }:)

Reply #31 Top

... your argument could have a weight (currently none) if you were also to complain about how we exploit thousands of people to do our will, forcing them to die in our name in battles they don't care about, forcing them to work non stop, bend the nature to fit our needs without caring about the enviroment and all that stuff.
End of quote

Whoa there, easy with the troll emoticon. You're reading way too much into my comment. In any case, if I were to make an argument about a game mechanic being 'sexist' or otherwise immoral -- which I haven't, which is why your comment about my 'argument' having 'weight' is truly bizarre -- I would at least need to make some argument about why fictional representations of women would be actually harmful.

I just think it's ironic -- maybe in the Alannis Morissette sense -- that a proposal that begins by suggesting that women in games should be more than eye candy, concludes with a mechanic that Sir Thomas Moore would be proud of. Usually, when I read that suggestion, it's followed by some lengthy appeal for social justice.

Reply #32 Top

Quoting zigzag, reply 31

I just think it's ironic -- maybe in the Alannis Morissette sense -- that a proposal that begins by suggesting that women in games should be more than eye candy, concludes with a mechanic that Sir Thomas Moore would be proud of. Usually, when I read that suggestion, it's followed by some lengthy appeal for social justice.
End of zigzag's quote

And there I have to point to the part you quoted. No one has problems with men in this kind of games being exploited. Realism I suppose. Then someone points at "hey, why shouldn't women get a fair treatment and stop being just toys for teenargers to drool over?" and suddenly it's bad (for women, still nothing heard about the men). Just becuase they would help to shape some population growth mechanics? (for which they need men... which again, nothing said against it) Simply because they are supposed to do something that they do in real life? (aka giving birth) (in some groups, we could talk aboout "modern life" forcing the drop of natality rates for women that want equal rights in jobs and all that)

Because someone could come and say (joking or not) that what I say is bad because it represents an old model that limits women rights and blah blah blah, saying that it would seem as if women are only worthy  to give birth and nothing else. Yet, I'd be still expecting someone to complain about men being exploited as force labor or something. And get silence in return.

I might be reading too much in your comment (on purpose) but yours is reading to much into my idea, so what's the problem? We can discuss about the type of damage a sword should make, or the effects of magic in the land... but not of something as natural as women and their ability to give birth (that in the end is the most important skill for specie's survival and that has nothing to do with sexism)?

For the record, I don't believe in social justice but in human stupidity. The former would be sweet, the later make it impossible.

Reply #33 Top

I'm not accusing you of being sexist. I only claimed to be surprised because posts that begin with 'hey, maybe women should be more than eyecandy' usually end up with very different conclusions -- hence, my comment about its irony. Insisting that 'that's the way things really are', 'you don't talk about the men', or even 'you shouldn't have been surprised' doesn't change that I was surprised. If I were interested in spreading some social agenda, I probably would have spelt women with a 'y' and called you all sorts of horrible names.

If you want to continue this conversation, PM me. Otherwise, I'll get out of your thread.

Reply #34 Top


(...)Women. Bastly ignored in games except for Amazon roles, scantily clad heroines and similar things.(...)
End of quote


I ... just ... had to

Reply #35 Top

Quoting porternielsen, reply 1
My only plead/ suggestion with this is please keep the women modest.

I never understood games where the women wore next to nothing, for several reason.

1)It wouldn't be comfortable to fight in what some games dress women in.
2)It provides no protection from the elements.
3)It provides no armor
4)The game should sell itself, not some imodest twit on the front cover of the box.

If we have women in the game, please dress them similiar to the male conterparts. Robes, or dresses for the wizards. Armor for the warriors. Just my two cents!

I know this had little to do with the original post, but it is somewhat related and important to me. Show women respect.
End of porternielsen's quote

Yeah, that bugs me too. I've got a female Paladin in World of Warcraft, and at one point my plate armor was a bikini. Now I know why that happens, but come on. My goal in a group is to get between the bad guys and my teammates, and get beaten up. I'm a holy warrior. Why am I doing this in a bikini?  (Thankfully, more recent plate sets look like proper armor.)

 

I agree with Wintersong's sentiment, though not necessarily how to implement it. Based on the time scales we see in game right now, it really seems like most population growth is intended to be from immigration from the wastelands, rather then births (newborns aren't really usable population for years anyway). So if thats the case, I'm not sure what we gain by putting in measurements and limits to enforce a population gender divide. I guess you could abstract some of that and wind up with something useful, but if I recruit 40% of a city as soldiers and the city is now 50 women and 10 men, how does that change the way the city functions then if it was simply a city of 60 people (30/30) to start with?

 

I don't really have an answer for that. I do hope that when we zoom in on the city and see little people doing things (which I think is intended at the lowest zoom levels) we see women as well as men, though. We should also be able to have female sovereigns and soldiers, if we want to.

Reply #36 Top

Quoting Campaigner, reply 27

I immedietly thought you to be a religious american and when I checked your profile I was right
End of Campaigner's quote

I'm an atheist Canadian, and I agree with him. Stereotyping sure is fun.
 

If your wife objects to scantily clad women then that's because she's jealous. I can't imagine kids complaining. If they got questions then you just explain that gamemakes want young males (which are the gamebuying majority) to see the game.

If YOU got objections though....then you've been feminized and you need to snap out of it by trying to behave like a man.

The only complaint I'd consider valid is not wanting your daughters to see it but then again they see that type of women all the time on TV, magazines and adposters around the city.
End of quote

Is this a troll, or a serious reply? If its a troll, good job, people bit.

If its serious... WTF? I think we can do better in games then having everything broken down into "the hero", "the villans", and "the harem", the third category being the one in which all the women fit.

People want a game where the female characters actually look like they belong in the world along with the males, rather then being eye candy for teenage boys. What does that have to do with jealousy or being "feminized" (whatever that means)?

Reply #37 Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 36

Quoting Campaigner, reply 27
I immedietly thought you to be a religious american and when I checked your profile I was right

I'm an atheist Canadian, and I agree with him. Stereotyping sure is fun.
 


Is this a troll, or a serious reply? If its a troll, good job, people bit.

If its serious... WTF? I think we can do better in games then having everything broken down into "the hero", "the villans", and "the harem", the third category being the one in which all the women fit.

People want a game where the female characters actually look like they belong in the world along with the males, rather then being eye candy for teenage boys. What does that have to do with jealousy or being "feminized" (whatever that means)?
End of Tridus's quote

 

I've edited my post above but I'll put in here as well:

 

I support women being portrayed to their full capabilities but it's fun to see hot chicks scantily clad . But I would prefer to see men & women portrayed to their own fullest capability like in Lord of the Rings where the woman fights alongside the men.

 

So I agree with you.

 

Jealousy comes from the women that are angry that she isn't as goodlooking as the hot chick in the game.

Feminized is when a guy starts to behave like a woman, like gaypeople do.

Reply #38 Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 29

Quoting zigzag, reply 25Hooray for moral progress! Instead of stripping the clothing off our fantasy women, we're turning them -- literally -- into the reproductive organs of the state.

Welcome to a world where biologically speaking they are nothing more than that for the state (well, they are also tax payers). The negative effects of women using their right not to have babies are quite doccumented and one of the effect is the aging of the population pyramid and the need of immigrants to counter its effects with their numbers and reproduction habits (that produce more offspring than those of the "advanced" world). Let's ignore racists and their reactions to this event in this topic.

Also, your argument could have a weight (currently none) if you were also to complain about how we exploit thousands of people to do our will, forcing them to die in our name in battles they don't care about, forcing them to work non stop, bend the nature to fit our needs without caring about the enviroment and all that stuff. Glad I didn't talk about black women so no one can say something about racism... d'oh!

Really.
End of Wintersong's quote

 

Wow ... are you suggesting we should care about people? especially in a game?

Whats the point in caring about such a renewable resource ... I would rather be worried about paying politically correct favors towards Essence Shards, Dragons, and possibly the Dev Team.

Reply #39 Top

You would hope a game would try to reflect the demography of the real world.

Having said that, I don't see anything wrong with women having boobs in games, some real women have them...

Reply #40 Top

Feminized is when a guy starts to behave like a woman, like gaypeople do.
End of quote
Oh, so now you're a homophobe? Wonderful. Have you ever actually met a gay man before?

I'm an atheist Canadian, and I agree with him. Stereotyping sure is fun.
End of quote
People want a game where the female characters actually look like they belong in the world along with the males, rather then being eye candy for teenage boys.
End of quote
While as a male 15-year-old women's-lib-er I agree with your politics, seeing these two quotes put together just made me chuckle.

Reply #41 Top

your 15 years old?

Reply #42 Top

your 15 years old?
End of quote
Well, 15.6 if you want to get technical about it...... how old did you think I was?

Reply #43 Top

I imagine 15year olds to be like the ones I went to school with as opposed to being as intelligent as I was at that age :(

Reply #44 Top

Quoting red1939, reply 34




quoting post

(...)Women. Bastly ignored in games except for Amazon roles, scantily clad heroines and similar things.(...)


I ... just ... had to

End of red1939's quote

lol Nice Pic. Lets hope Elemental makes all the female Sovereigns go topless :) hehe

Reply #45 Top

Female Soveriengs don't need clothes ... their CHANNELERS!!!! The very fabric of space and time will protect them, they are at one with the very elements clothing wishes to protect us from.

In fact ... I think My soveriegn's only clothing will be an all-consuming aura of flame ... a physical manifestation of pure power unleashed of the fire element.

Of course, this unleashed power can be temporarily restrained to leave a normally naked body when times require it ... for instance increasing the royal line.

Reply #46 Top

Winter....  who has the trade mark on "Wall of Text"  ?

Reply #47 Top

Winter.... who has the trade mark on "Wall of Text" ?
End of quote

Winter does. I think.

Female Soveriengs don't need clothes ... their CHANNELERS!!!! The very fabric of space and time will protect them, they are at one with the very elements clothing wishes to protect us from.

In fact ... I think My soveriegn's only clothing will be an all-consuming aura of flame ... a physical manifestation of pure power unleashed of the fire element.

Of course, this unleashed power can be temporarily restrained to leave a normally naked body when times require it ... for instance increasing the royal line.
End of quote
Nit quite sure whether to be amazed or alarmed that you could actually think of something like this........

Reply #48 Top

be amazed B)

Reply #49 Top

 Another thing to think about as far as gender-based units. Some FRP strategy games like Age of Wonders had a "seduce" power that would bring a male non-undead, non-beast unit under your control. Thing is, especcially with AoW, most units were male except maybe some heroes and some dark elf units.

 If a "seduce" type unit is in Elemental, It could be a very good thing to be able to select female or male troops in the unit editor as a counter against mass seduce unit strategies. In AoW, massing Druids and Nymphs was a famous cheese tactic.

Reply #50 Top

Hmm, perhaps the Fallen can recruit Incubi and Succubi in order to seduce the respective gender'd troops.