Sovereign Recombobulation process

from Elemental Forums

Yep, so here is another thread to add to the heap about sovereign deaths and failsafes.  I mentioned it in the recent journal thread, but was curious what other people might think of it.

But before I mention the idea, let me predicate this post on my interpretations of Frogboy's divine decree that sovereign death = game over.  I think the essence of that statement is that the game can end not just when an empire is ground to dust, but when the sovereign is thoroughly defeated and his failsafes penetrated--- not simply when his hitpoints are reduced to 0 on the battlefield (after all, with the new escape machanisms proposed, the sovereign can in theory be defeated thousands of times in such a manner, but the game doesn't end). 

So with this in mind, I believe that resurrection mechanisms should be on the table as an option, because it is almost 100 percent mechanically identical to a sovereign escaping back to a city once they lose a battle (the difference is that it is easier to apply penalties to say, a ressurection than it is to an escape).

So, on to the idea.  I say there should be a ritual building that can be built in specific city before hand and ideally only 1 can be easily built.  When the sovereign dies, the priests/wizards of this ritual building (call it what you may) spend a certain number of resources corresponding to the strength of the sovereign and they begin a lengthy ritual to recombobulate the sovereign.  During the time the sovereign is gone, his empire may suffer stiff penalties and the inability to do spell research.  If someone marches on the ritual center and kill those that are conducting it, the sovereign is gone for good.  However, if the mechanism is destroyed before the sovereign--- and the sovereign is subsequently killed--- then the sovereign is also toast, because there is no-one around to reattune his essence.  In addition, if both sovereigns are locked into battle with one another, they may have a chance to prevent the other's essence from escaping from the field (depending on how lopsided the victory is or whether you sunk level points into the sovereign specifically for the purpose of "sovereign slaying") This would kill the sovereign as well, and possibly even steal some of the defeated sovereign's essence even if it does escape. 

So the net effect of this method is that it allows the sovereign greater autonomy for things like adventuring and questing in distant wildlands without legions of soldiers at his back (because there are no enemy sovereigns to hunt them) but makes careless use of sovereigns against other players risky.  In other words, you won't have to worry so much about losing the game if your sovereign gets killed by a troll in the woods because that troll won't be marching on your ritual city, but you will have to take great care during player vs player warfare. 

Perhaps additional rituals can be built at very high costs, and each civilization might have their own spin on the recombobulation process.  For instance, scholarly races might be able to spend extra resources to speed the process along and prevent penalties, or fallen civs might sacrifice their offspring to expediate the ritual as well.

Ultimately, there is a lot more strategy involved in this mechanism than an evasion score or get-out-of-jail free cards for your sovereigns, and it couldn't be too difficult to program either.

Any takers?

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Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

In the thread on sovereign creation I mentioned Dominions 3, and for what it's worth this is more or less how Dominions handles sovereigns being killed too.  In Dom if your pretender dies he loses a little of his magic power and will sometimes have lingering wounds, but can be brought back to life by ordering priests at a temple to "Call God".  The more priests you have the less time it takes.

It's a good system though... it penalizes you for losing your pretender, both in his losing some stats and being forced to sit out for a while, but it lets you take more risks with him than if you lose the game when he dies.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Non-neg....Hey wait that's actually a pretty good idea. :thumbsup:

However, the only real issue is that the SD=GO is somehow critical to some gameply mechanic that SD is currently keeping under wraps. Anything that can be worked into that I think is great. It would be a shame if they buckled on their non-neg.... due to overwhelming pressure and we never found out how it was originally supposed to work. I guess this is time to plead for more info from above so that we can discuss alternatives with as much info as possible.

It really is a waste of bandwidth for people to keep coming up with these "How I'd like to see it work is..." posts if indeed they are just pissing in the wind because for reasons unknown to us SD=GO is truly truly non...you know. So again if any of these nifty alternatives are workable within the super secret nifty idea SD is doing that is great. I don't know how much clearer it can be than the Frog himself saying it is a non-negotiable item. I like this current idea a lot. I like some other ideas and even have a few of my own that I have not posted. I guess I will quit posting NON-NEGOTIABLE on everyone's ideas and just sit patiently and wait and see what unfolds.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Yea I think its important to find out what Frogboy means by it being critical to the background story before we try and come up with other ideas, but if Frogboy ever opens the floor to this I think this is a pretty good idea. Personally, Id like to see sovereign revival incorporated with quests. i.e- You have died. If your people can take your body and throw it into the depths of the Fires of Tarin (a spot on the map) then you will be revived.

Im also interested in a horcrux-inspired revival system where you put essence into artifacts as you create them which makes them incredibly strong while they are in use by your heroes. Upon your death however, you must make the decision as to whether you are going to destroy that weapon in order to come back to the world. Just ideas to think about... :grin:

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top


So, on to the idea.  I say there should be a ritual building that can be built in specific city before hand and ideally only 1 can be easily built.  When the sovereign dies, the priests/wizards of this ritual building (call it what you may) spend a certain number of resources corresponding to the strength of the sovereign and they begin a lengthy ritual to recombobulate the sovereign.  During the time the sovereign is gone, his empire may suffer stiff penalties and the inability to do spell research.  If someone marches on the ritual center and kill those that are conducting it, the sovereign is gone for good.  However, if the mechanism is destroyed before the sovereign--- and the sovereign is subsequently killed--- then the sovereign is also toast, because there is no-one around to reattune his essence.  In addition, if both sovereigns are locked into battle with one another, they may have a chance to prevent the other's essence from escaping from the field (depending on how lopsided the victory is or whether you sunk level points into the sovereign specifically for the purpose of "sovereign slaying") This would kill the sovereign as well, and possibly even steal some of the defeated sovereign's essence even if it does escape.
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Yes, a lot of us would like some variation on this idea. At least I would. I posted something on the Sovereign death thread about how I didn't think that the current system was all that cool or thematic or taking advantage of the magical setting. I wanted a sort of "Eye of Sauron" thing and some more elaborate and interesting ways to kill a channeler.

I have a theory that the reason behind the SD = GO is that there is some sort of "devour" mechanic... like that by killing the other sovereign you essentially absorb the other guy and a measure of his power. That would be neat.

I guess I will quit posting NON-NEGOTIABLE on everyone's ideas and just sit patiently and wait and see what unfolds.
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That would be a nice thing to do.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

It would be a shame if they buckled on their non-neg.... due to overwhelming pressure and we never found out how it was originally supposed to work. I guess this is time to plead for more info from above so that we can discuss alternatives with as much info as possible.
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Yeah, that's a good point.  Until we know exactly what he has in store, it's difficult to brainstorm, although it is possible that our brainstorming might inform or revise whatever original inspirations they might have.  I guess what motivated me to start yet another one of these threads was the scare I got from the evasion/escape mechanics journal thread.  From what I've heard so far from Frog, it sounds like a mechanic of questionable value to the strategic elements of the game as well as a bit lack-luster (that is, unless it fits brilliantly into whatever it is he is concealing :-) )  And if I sound harsh, it's only because everything else I've seen and heard of Elemental so far has been awesome, so I've got pretty high expectations :-)