LOL. Sorry guys, but this entire conversation is a misunderstanding, probably on my part. The OP that replied to me started this whole business of ban. Bwahaha okay lemme explain.

I in no way said that people in the military are stupid. Here is what I said.

Yup, thats the military for ya'...makin' decisions based soley on your reasoning which, since you are a soldier, is probably NOT empirical reasoning/scientific method and observation based, because you were stupid enough to join the military in the first place.

Do you see me saying that people in the military are stupid? No. Its not there

"because you were stupid enough to join the military in the first place."

I was saying here that from my perspective, joining the military is stupid. My reason for this is almost entirely based on my view as military being the most inefficient means of solving problems, due to the countless generations of hate it creates, which we can se a lot of today, rooted deep within modern society, and will continue on through the annals of history at the rate that we kill each other, BUT I didn not say that people in the military were stupid. I said that people that join the military are stupid, proposing that joining the military is stupid. Am I implying that a general who has advanced knowledge of tactics and strategy, a pactient mind, and intentions to benefit others is stupid? No, but I do regard his decision to join the military in the first place as a stupid one, and I see his past self, who had joined the military as a stupid version of himself, in the moment that he had joined the military.

Now I can see how this would come across as offensive, but Its not intended to be. Its just how I see it. When you join the military, in that moment, that period where you decide that directly supporting just one war machine of many that kill each other and exhaust precious resources is a good idea, you are not making a choice that will benefit humanity as a whole. I see it as putting a huge burden on humanity...I deam this "stupid"

Now I know a majority of people won't agree, and I am not asking you to. I am just asking you to try and not get offended, and see where I am coming from here.

Thus, I must apolagize for such confusion, and if you all would just remove this inconvenience from your brain, I would much appreciate it.

I see where you're coming from. But I'm reasonably sure others won't. Best to just drop it before the tread gets locked due to flamewars.

Good idea. Officially dropped into the depths of hell itself, or maybe hades, into the river stix.

Was going to respond but Scout is right, should just drop it.

I know we said we're going to drop this, but i have to say this distinction is impossible

so, you're stupid because you joined the army, but you arent stupid in general?

its like saying you're American because you live/work there but you arent American because you werent born there...

Yes, the average grunt probably just wants to join the army to blow shit up and kill some 'damn towelheads' (excuse the slur), but the Battle-Hardened Colonel or Brilliant General joins the military for patriotic reasons methinks, otherwise they would have washed out or been stuck behind some supply depot desk long ago.

i do understand what you are saying though: if people didnt join the military, there would be no-one to fight, so peace is the only other logical outcome. well, that is wrong unfortuantely. like i said, lead by example isnt and acceptable option, because if you disband your armies, and the other guy doesnt do the same, its effectively like pulling your pants down, bending over and saying: "Come on through, boys!"

And, even if all armies are disbanded, and lets say all guns are confiscated (somehow?) people still have fists, blunt objects, broken bottles, baseball bats, knives, chainsaws and god knows what else to give them a tactical edge over another person. With no 'bigger stick' as it were to keep the peace, the fighting will just break out again.

Like i said, we're human, we fight. Without a guy with a bigger stick keeping people in line, we get all sorts of shit hitting the fan.

^ was actually what I was going to write. That and if your going to throw an opinion out about something and complain about how it doesnt solve anything(which I think it solves alot more then talking sometimes) its easier to criticize then to bring an alternative to the table. I didnt see any alternative. Just an opinion about something that isnt wrapped up in a nice bow. Wars ugly. But so are people. Sometimes we need war to keep the extremely ugly (internally not physical) from getting a grasp on the world.

Also, the average grunt doesnt do it because he wants to blow shit up and kill the terrorist. Although that is a benefit of being the grunt. Be surprised at what youll do over there just to blow off steam. And I dont mean killing people. More like riding giant goats like horses. Taking pictures of yourself posing infront of an IED explosion instead of taking cover. etc etc.

What the average grunt joins for, is an oppurtunity to get out of the life hes leading, save some money. And hopefully start a new life when he gets out. Much better then what he was living before. They just happen to be patriotic. And feel an enormous burden of being protective of those he loves (Im guilty of this the most) and an urge to do the right thing. Even if that means taking anothers life. (not that its always truely the right thing, politicians are notorious for creating the image of righteousness when there is none.)

Well, that didn't last long...........

In any event, I agree that economic pressures play a large role in military recruiting, however, I have to say that you would have to be pretty desperate for strong-liklihood-of-painful-death-or-lifelong-maiming to be a "smart" option for your career. And while I agree that you need some sort of armed force to keep people from obliterating one another, there's no real reason that said force has to be unnecessarily brutal, or to be elevated on a moral and social pedestal beyond all criticism.

no offense but smart is a relative term. I know plenty of "educated" people who sit on their asses all day trolling forums (not these, but another one i lurk sometimes) with no job or no life. Like I said, most of the grunts (those putting their lives on the lines) are looking to improve their lives. Military is the obvious answer for this because they OBVIOUSLY dont have the money or resources to better their lives otherwise.

And anyone SMART enough. Would know not everyone in the military are COMBAT. Thats right, only a select few risk their lives. The others sit behind TBarriers and eat Burger King and Pizza Hut in a combat zone. There are some 300 jobs in the Army alone. Guess how many of those jobs are Combat ? Less then 10.

I live in Australia and the military here has a program that pays you to study a degree or two in University, and then only requires that you 'pay them back' by taking the skills you learnt and applying them to a military career ofor 1 year more time than you spent on learning the degree.

so, they pay you, as well as your course fees, with no debts, for lets say 3 years, plus one year of basic training, so 4 years, then, they want you to work for them for 5 years using the skills you learnt in your degree.

during your 1st year at Uni, you get paid something like $50,000p/a, with virtually zero expenses, and that increases every year. Guess what im doing for uni?

Considering they usually dont have degrees for front line grunts, so your chance of being killed when taking this path is the same as dying in a plane crash

the us's military role up until these last two wars and last two presidents.  was to end the fighting as quickly as possible.  but now to be politically correct, we are following rules that extend the war beyond reason.

You seem to forget the mess that was Vietnam. Or are they still not calling that a "war"?

Regarding Rez and A86, in guerilla warfare situations such as Iraq and Afghanistan combat positions do not necessarily equate to the highest-risk areas: if anything convoy drivers and other "logistical" people are more vulnerable, since they support the entire war machine and are thus tempting targets for entities that operate within occupied territory.

nm, i gotta stop reading at night.

 

your right but that was the weapons industry.  they wanted to test new weapon systems.  they didn't want that one to end.

you named 1 out of 290 jobs that are noncombat related. You really did no justice to your arguement. Anyone wearing a uniform is a target.

You have no clue what this world would be like without soldiers. SOMEONE has TO DO IT. Even if your too scared to do it. What you fail to realize is, your entire life is at risk. Wether you go to war or not. And if you actually took the numbers from Iraq and Afghanistan for US and Allied causualties. Youd realize the deathtoll was FAR less then the actual US if you based the numbers of casualties due to war to number of deaths in the US. Some people realize. Your going to die regardless of what you do. And I personally believe Id rather die doing something I enjoy and believe in then die thanks to some jackass driving drunk on the highway. Or because some kid that lives in the house next to me is a drug dealer and someone decided to shoot his house up while I walked by. To me, those are useless deaths. To me regardless of what Bush intended for Iraq. When I went over there, I know personally I touched the lives of some Iraqis. Saved a few. Even inspired some. If I died over there. Atleast I knew deep down inside I would have died accomplishing something more then anyone screaming and yelling about ending war.

I have no clue what world youve been living in, but war has always been unnecessarily brutal. And they arent on some above reproach pedestal. But if your going to talk shit about them. Get your shittalking facts straight.

Exactly.

Yes, but that doesn't mean someone has to do it badly and with excessive force and sadism.

So you enjoy killing and destruction. That actually explains a lot.

Yeah, and what about all the people you couldn't save? Would they have been in any need of salvation if we hadn't gone on this fools errand in the first place?

Seems to me like they are. Anybody who more than mentions Abu Ghraib, the Japanese internment camps, the Blackwater shootings, or My Lai is immediately branded as some Total-Pacifist-Anti-American-Freedom-Hating-Hajji. Just look at this thread. And not to mention the media culture the ceaselessly glorifies a necerssary evil into good clean fun at the movies......

Where is it bad? where is it excessive and sadism?? where are you getting your info. Sounds alot like a anti war website.

Where did I say I enjoyed killing and destruction? putting words in my mouth. which means Ill probably ignore any further posts from you because your ability to debate me is laughable.

Am I superman? can I save everyone? no, can i do some good by saving a few? yes. More then you have.

A fools errand? Iraq has been on the verge of invasion since the Golf War, its been on hold for 13 + years before it finally happened. Oh dont forget that Saddam was murdering anyone he didnt agree with. It wasnt about wether they were guilty of something or he just didnt see eye to eye with them. But your right we should have left them under a dictator that killed for sheer enjoyment. Because the risk of death otherwise is just stupid. Sorry but your arguement lacks the reality of what those people went through before we invaded. You also lack to realize how HAPPY Iraqis are that we liberated them. But I wouldnt expect someone who hasnt talked to an Iraqi to know that. Only what he watches on tv.

The Media Culture that glorifies? If i remember correctly the media was all for the war in Iraqs end. Not the other way around. But you keep spinning your web of lies. People will just continue to laugh at what you have to say.

Theres a difference between disagreeing with the negative things individuals do  that come out of war and branding everyone who go to war.  Like before, all criticizism but no solution. God only knows why anti war activists cant use their brains to do anything but bitch and moan.

Bad is an Americans-first mentality that treats foreign nationals as sub-human. Excessive is bombing a gasoline truck in the middle of a village on the off chance that the Taliban might get ahold of it. Sadism is threatening to bore a hole in a detainee's skull with a power drill. It's been in all the papers (well, not the Murdoch ones)(can't type tonight).....

This isn't about you. This is about replacing a dictatorship where people may not be able to contradict the government but at least have access to water, electricty, and the knowledge that if they keep quiet they'll be safe from arbitrary murder with an effective anarchy where they don't even have that.

See above. Now, nothing's certain.

Yeah, so happy that the man who gave the Middle Eastern equivalent of the finger to Bush is now a national hero (in jail last time I checked, but still a hero).

Perhaps "media" was an imprescise choice of words. I was referring more to popular culture, which is studded with such ready-made recruiting tools as GI Joe, 24, and Transformers.

Oh god forbid a country looks out for its own JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. And obviously you havent been to Iraq because we flushed so much money into that country to kickstart it back up. But obviously thats still being selfish. Because before you say it I will. We were looking for OIL right? wrong. The majority of our oil comes from our own supply.

Now your changing the subject. First you demanded what about all those I couldnt save. Now that I respond you change the issue. Stop backpedalling and stick to your point or dont debate it at all.

Again, you havent been to Iraq, You dont know what ITS REALLY LIKE. But go ahead keep watching the news and reading the paper and trusting some guy you dont know is being honest with you. How is nothing unsure? The country is now back in the hands of its own people. The last two times the country voted the majority of people turned out.  People are free to go about as they like. If you actually understood the dynamics of the Iraqis and whats the real issues youd stop spewing shit.Again, you havent been over there. I bet youve never even met an Iraqi. But of course you know better then everyone else right?

Wow 1 guy, No one likes Bush how is that relivant to how Iraqi's view Americans? Oh thats right, it has nothing to do with it. I guess all those people that walked up to me and my platoon over there and graciously thanked us and asked us to have dinner with them or sit down for chi (because when they like people they welcome them into their home with open arms) You can always tell those that like us from those that dont. The individuals (and they were rare) didnt even want us near their home let alone on their property.  But I guess again, you know better then someone thats actually been there.

GI Joe, and Transformers has been around for what 20 years now? Theyve always been connected with the Military. Just because the Producers/Writers/Director decided to make the Military aspect realistic doesnt mean its popular. And 24 is not military, its Espionage. CIA/NSA type shit.

And what about shows that make crime look so damn good? Is that not a way to "recruit" people into gangs and other crimes? TV is a poor attempt to frown on the Military just because the Producers/Writers/Director decided to do something on military. I actually think its pathetic people actually think the military are actively using television shows to "recruit". Which their not, if you notice they recruit the same old way they always have. Commericials, Racecars, and going to schools on career day. (and before you start harping on them going to schools, the fact is kids rarely decide at the drop of a hat to go into the military, I myself had been thinking about it since I was a small child, when I got into high school the recruiters gave me the information I needed to make an informed decision on wether I should continue working my ass off at a minimum wage job or take the risk. I took the risk and it paid off)

When I got to my unit, the one thing I noticed is peoples ages. Most of them were fresh out of boot aswell and were between the ages of 24-30 they had joined long after high school. Same all around across the base. Most individuals were in the same age bracket. It was ultra rare to see a 17 or 18 yr old kid. Especially in the Infantry.

Very good point. Agree with you there. Of course, it doesn't change the facts, but yes, I agree with you.

I never said this was a new phenominon. T and GIJ were just the first examples that sprang to mind. And the espionage stuff is trated the same way, it's just that the CIA usually only kills one or two people every year.

So? just because we get a lot of oil from ourselves doesn't mean could never want more.... and oil was only one factor in the invasion attempt. Political pressure, economics, and good-ol'-fashioned paranoia were also big contributers.

Need I repeat what he said: "This is for all the women and children who have died since you invaded". And of course you only SEE the Iraqis who like you! Would you go out of your way to tell the big, scary guys with rifles that you don't like them? And remember that I never said all Iraqis disliked the US.... you'll get a certian number of people in any population who will say or believe anything.

Last time I checked, we were still talking about the national instability and loss of infrastructure. Except you keep going on about "FREEDOM". I sort of feel like I'm playing a neverending game of verbal whack-a-mole here: you say something that sounds like a FOX News byline, I shoot it down, you come up with another, repeat ad infinitum.Yeah, because all that stuff about yellow-cake and chemical truks that just HAPPENED to not be there when the UN actually looked was really true and the media was just covering the whole thing up, right?

Yeah, granted they don't have water, food, electricity, and so forth, but at least they've got FREEDOM.......

Huh? Is this an attempt to (gasp!) change the subject? Or are you trying to say that because the people there were not on the extreme young end of the spectrum, they don't want or need to go to college? Have you ever been to a college, Mr. man-on-the-ground?

ill jump in here... you know most of the bombing of civilian targets going on in Iraq and elsewhere is one flavour of muslim trying to kill another flavour of muslim?

So, i have to say on one hand, while soldiers are necessary, why should we bother and waste our time and resources when the people themselves dont want to be helped...

on the other hand, if someone had stepped in and popped Hitler before the Holocaust, we could have prevented a whole shitload of problems...

*Sigh*  Sorry, guys.  I shoulda waited a few minutes at least before i posted that derailing comment.  Tater, i was a bit too hotheaded and i appologize for the attack.  I've just had a lot of relatives and friends relatives in the military, and i got pissed that you seemingly were outright attacking them.

Though i do find it amusing that everyone seems to be more interested in that post then the threads topic...SGU, remember?  Guess that shows you all really do hate the show with a fiery passion.

-Exile

I'm well aware of that fact. And I'm well aware of the fact that it was not happening before our good friends over at the Pentagon decided to launch this whole affair...... Saddam wasn't perfect (far from it!) but he at least ensured that only one faction was doing the shooting, not dozens of them....

Good question. Especially when there are thousands of people in Somalia and Haiti and New Guinea that want and need US aid but we're not giving it to them.......

EDIT:

Apology........ accepted. Still don't want to give you any hints as to my location, though......... Just remember that attacking an institution does not equate to attacking all the people in it.

i was thinking the same thing actually, but with that mid-season break and all, theres not much more to talk about is there?

and i would like to note that going to college does not make you in any way superior to people who havent. especially in todays world where everything is about passing the test, not actually learning anything, or where being different is wrong or where what is taught depends on who exactly is sponsoring you.

i wouldnt hold college and university on such a high pedestal, they are far from the be-all and end-all

I know. Oh, how I know. I was just making a little joke about his implication that only people ages 18-20 go to college and his repeated asserion that unless you've been in a situation firsthand you automatically have no idea idea what you're talking about and can't render any information of value.

Youd be surprised at the balls Iraqis had. They werent scared to tell us what they thought. They were afraid of the terrorists forcing their daughters into marriage without their parents concent. They were afraid because the Terrorists were judging men and women and beheading them when they didnt agree with them. And before you say oh well if we didnt invade they wouldnt have to deal with terrorists...yeah they wouldnt, theyd still have the biggest terrorist of them all Saddam. Youd be horrified at the number of mass graves US troops came across. Wether you disagree or not, it happened. So get off your high horse. Obviously you have nothing more to offer then your disapproval. But you have NOTHING to offer to make things right.

 

And a Fox byline. Funny the only one changing subjects are you. AGAIN you asked about all the people I COULDNT SAVE. I answered I did what I could. You responded by changing the subject. Like I said backpedalling. You havent shot anything down. Only proven your a complainer. You arent capable of bringing any solutions to the table. But you dont mind crying about whats going on in the world.

And it wasnt a change of subject. It was answering a "point" I already knew you were going to make...(*gasp* how did he know? Let me try to call him on changing the subject now.)