espionage and covert attacks, a two prong solution

from Elemental Forums

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Goodmorning all,

Drawing from
https://forums.elementalgame.com/354543 Espionage
https://forums.elementalgame.com/361114 Grima
https://forums.elementalgame.com/361383 Single Unit Visibility

and various other sources. I would like to propose a 2 part solution to the 'spy problem'.

There are two primary camps i see on the forums about spying.

Camp A: Spys are on map units that can sneak into an area and brake and/or steal stuff.
Camp B: Spys are long term agents of control and mis-direction that infiltrate and subvert an opponents empire.

As I see it the two are irreconcilable. So I suggest we don't try.


Common requests of Camp A; highly stealth unit, trainable for assassination, bulk money/resource stealing, well poisoning, sabotage/destroy structure, map and plan stealing. . . what they want is military special ops. So I propose a military trainable unit, like any trainable unit.
Take a regular troop + 'special ops' training, + SO::town infiltration(can enter a town to do a mission and escape from that town undetected) + a vial of ultra concentrated unpleasant death = special ops with 'Poison Well'.
Regular troop + 'special ops' training + Gauntlet of magic NULL(renders all other magical equipment inert within certain area) + 'One on One mastery' + 'SO::Army Infiltration' = special ops unit with assassinate hero (enters 1 on 1 combat vrs Hero).

Equipping different tool, and training different skills allows a unit to behave as a special OP. We are already know that all military units will be drawn from the same cloth, and this proposal is true to that. There is no special on map unit, but any unit can be given SO training and tools and be used as such.

Common requests of Camp B: Separate spy desk, non RNG dominated missions, espionage and counter espionage, missions that give control over ones opponents, or parts of their empire, resource siphoning, causing diplomatic upsets, Trainable, equitable, spell able, unique units. NO SLIDERS.


This system I suggest be implemented an extension of a diplomatic system. Since the first and lowest level spys will just be diplomats opening doors they are not supposed to, reading things off peoples desks upside down, and listening to all the gossip they can. As they level up, and your understanding of their culture increases spys acquire the ability to assume identities, forge paperwork, begin to siphon resources. High level spys, with special training in the culture can be assigned to 'join the empire' they leave, and re-enter the empire as an faction-less wanderer, a nomad. They join the empire and begin to serve in their assigned roll. Each assigned roll would have its own list of activate-able abilities, and innate effects in the target society(General town unit, Sow decent, siphon profits, arrange for the doors to be opened in the event of a siege... Military unit, could corrupt moral, report battle plans, corrupt allegiance... ). All such spys would sending back reports when they can, but would in general not be directly controllable any longer, any contact with them would risk discovery (as discussed in the other pages). The highest level spys, or spys with essence (probably both) could be sent to gain influence over leaders, eventually if successful, leading to mind control of lesser leaders.


These units would not be military, would not show up on the map, and would have different skills. Warriors and Special ops units have health, attack defense …. Spys have charisma, intelligence, a measure of how observant they are, and maybe 1 or 2 other basic skills. When you get a new spy, what you assign them to do would strongly on their scores in those basic skills. Items and spells can be given to boost those skills as well. These units would not have assassination, or well poisoning steal lump sums of money.. . But would be able to steal techs spells, relay battle plans, Etc.

How does this sound to everybody??

Best wishes all,

Robbie Price.

4,701 views 10 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Looks good, except for one thing: spies should have a secondary ability to destroy stuff, and commandoes should have a secondary ability to learn/manipulate. This way, you can do one or the other, depending on what you're better at.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Great idea! Lets wait till beta to see if this will fit.

Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

I dislike the idea of a desk entirely.  Desks suck.  Having a real production system with inputs and outputs, instead of tax sliders, makes the cheap knockoff qualities all the more apparent.  At the least, have actual embassies or something that produce them.  Other than that, it's less irritating than most ideas.  I still don't like breaking a perfectly good army system by introducing cheeseball units that break the rules.  It's a layer of crap you simply don't need.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I still don't like breaking a perfectly good army system by introducing cheeseball units that break the rules. It's a layer of crap you simply don't need.
End of quote
Well, if you don't want them, me and probably a lot of other people would still be perfectly happy with sabotage functions integrated with the spymaster's desk....

If you don't like it, then just don't use it. Nobody's forcing you to enable espionage.......

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

You're assuming an entire segment of the game will be optional.  That tends to happen with things tacked onto a game after the fact, as the espionage system in GC2 was.  If it's built from the ground up with a system in mind, it's not likely to be optional.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Arg, bad server responses are evil!

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

I think the problem with this is that it pleases no one -- it's not just that camps A and B want certain features in the game, it's that they don't want other features.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Scoutdog, reply 4

I still don't like breaking a perfectly good army system by introducing cheeseball units that break the rules. It's a layer of crap you simply don't need.Well, if you don't want them, me and probably a lot of other people would still be perfectly happy with sabotage functions integrated with the spymaster's desk....


If you don't like it, then just don't use it. Nobody's forcing you to enable espionage.......
End of Scoutdog's quote

Now I see this argument made quite a bit, could you please show me in GC2 where to "disable espionage"?

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

For me the so called Camps A and B are not so easy to delimit: everyone wants slightly different things and often it could go under either A or B. Maybe all can agree on the definition that spies stay hidden in the sense that the opponent doesn't realise what they are really doing. The basic thing they do is getting info, and on top of that there are further actions they could take (like siphoning resources etc). The question is how to include such abilities in the game (while keeping them optional). Several solutions have been presented in earlier posts.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Goodmorning all,

re : spies should have a secondary ability to destroy stuff, and commandoes should have a secondary ability to learn/manipulate.

I would for the most part disagree.  If you are going to have two systems, have thier actions seperate, Overlap = confusion and ballancing problems.   Now, that being said, to some extent some level of destruction and learnage is possible.  Consider a spy in a town, running as part of the government.  The spy could forge documents demanding that a building be taken down and it's building materials sold for scraps, assuming buildings are sellable.  and a Spec Ops could steal a written battle plan, or troop distribution plan, from a general of a camp of war perhaps. . . but one has to ask oneselves how likely is it that these are not going to be encoded in some form, and as for manipulating things. Unless you know enough about the higherachy to forge a good document, how are you going to manipluate stuff?  In short,  Spec Ops jobs should be restricted to In and Out simple military like actions.  Covert Ops should be restricted to things that a member inside the society might/could consivably do, nobody poisons the well from which they too drink...  Seperate systems; Seperate effects.

I think the problem with this is that it pleases no one -- it's not just that camps A and B want certain features in the game, it's that they don't want other features.
End of quote


I for one would be happy without an sabatoge well poisoning features at all, I'm a Camp B person.  But when i allow camp A people exsist, it strikes me that having both and keeping them seperated, is better then only having a Camp A solution, and the prospect of a merged system (trying to do both with one system) hurts, alot. 


This is just my suggested way of solving the problems ofcourse, It may not be the best, it may not even be the one i like most in 5 days.  But i think it's complete, isn't self contradictory,  is codeable, and would provide the ability to do most of everything everybodies asking for (except for the people who want other people to not have what they want. to them, tough.)

Take care all
Robbie.