Luckmann

Join Date 04/2006

+132

Civilizational Traits

While giving the "Citizens" thread a once-over and the short discussion on peasantry defense, I thought to myself that "Full peasant defense would be ridiculous, most of these untrained and unworthy plebes are hardly fit to carry a rake, let alone have any loyalty to the Primarchs, God and the Empire or the courage to stand stedfast in the face of assured destruction". At the same time, I'd like for my peasantry to be.. well.. better. If nothing else, I'd like them to stand there and take a beating, even if they're dying in droves. Cowardice is, after all, a cardinal sin.

Obviously I can't say "The idea of full peasant defense is stupid, but I'd love it myself", so enter traits.

Most should be familiar with the concept unless you suck. It's a common staple in a variety of roleplaying games where you choose one or a few traits (or none) for the character you create. All traits have positive and negative influences on your character. The obvious difference for what I'm suggesting is that they'd be for the entire civilization that you create and that there'd be no limit on the number of traits chosen (some would, however, be mutually exclusive). In-game, traits would be hidden for opponents.

Assuming that civilization-creation is analogous to that of Galactic Civilizations 2, they'd cost nothing to choose and be entirely optional. In many cases, it could simply be a matter of roleplay, perhaps opening up additional choices in the game. Some could add buildings or technologies later while excluding others permanently. Some could possibly be extreme, excluding an entire Element while boosting a seemingly arbitrary stat - others could be as minor as doubling the construction speed of farms while halving that of barracks.

Apart from obviously discussing this, by all means, come up with some interesting suggestions. Try to keep it general, since obviously we know nothing of balance at this point.

Fanaticism:
Allows all untrained citizens of an attacked city to participate in the defence of said city. However, should the enemy be repelled, losses on part of citizenry will still be much higher than usual.

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Denryu

Join Date 07/2006

+93

First, I don't think the idea of peasant defense is a stupid idea in THIS game. We are talking about poeple that have been living it pretty bad conditions for some time. certainly they have been fighting of wild animals and probably in many cases each other. These are the survivors. So I think saying Bah! peasants does not fairly take the setting we have been given so far into account.

Second, your idea for traits for your populace is almost surely going to be in. I honestly would be floored if it isn't, although I bet there is a point system where you have a set number of points, and you can either assign negative traits to gain points and positive traits at a cost of points. I don;t really like the idea of it being without cost and limitless because that implies that every trait is going to have offsetting positive and negative effects. I do think that having some traits that are without cost and have such offsets would be great. I just also expect there to be traits that are all positive (or all negative if taken in a negative direction)

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Quoting Denryu,

reply 1

First, I don't think the idea of peasant defense is a stupid idea in THIS game. We are talking about poeple that have been living it pretty bad conditions for some time. certainly they have been fighting of wild animals and probably in many cases each other. These are the survivors. So I think saying Bah! peasants does not fairly take the setting we have been given so far into account.

It's really for another thread, but since you brought it up; You're right. At first. The initial settlers will no doubt be rugged, but as time passes I'd expect the vast majority to become not unlike any other major congregation of human(esque) peasantry. Hardship may breed strength and endurance, but certainly not loyalty or courage.

Quoting Denryu,

reply 1

First you say "Your idea for traits for your populance is almost surely going to be in" but then you describe something completely different, that sounds more akin to the point-buy system of GalCiv2 (which, yes, most likely will be in - at least from my own expectations).

What I want is something in addition that give effects not normally covered by simpler mechanics. Think of traits as in S.P.E.C.I.A.L. rather than as in GalCiv2. And yes, I don't just want to imply that every trait has a negative and positive offset - I actually say it straight out, which is why they're free and potentially limitless. They're there to change your nation, add fluff or spice, fine tune it or to play on your likes and dislikes.

Woodchucks:
The nation invariably starts in a forested region and gets a greater yield from earth crystals. However, yields from all other crystals are slightly lower.

Saywhatnow:
Every soldier starts automaticly with a Whatchamajigga upgrade, but are unable to ever aquire Thingomabobs.

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And yes, I don't just want to imply that every trait has a negative and positive offset - I actually say it straight out, which is why they're free and potentially limitless. They're there to change your nation, add fluff or spice, fine tune it or to play on your likes and dislikes.

Hmmm.... I like the point system better, but they could still be both negative and positive.... a pointless system would be waaayyy to easy to exploit..... just so some were net positive and others were net negative. It would be a problem balancing any way you did it, but that's why we have betas.

Luddites: Technological research is slower and decreases morale the more RPs you make, but the lower your technological rating is compared to your oppponent's, the happier, stronger, and more loyal your citizens become.

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I think GalCiv did an excellent job in presenting many Civ traits in a balenced way. It would be great to have similar options for Elemental--Especially if it could be tied in with techs (new modded techs linked with new modded traits) the list could really be endless.

Here is my suggestion for a trait:

Forest Lore:

gain extra food/production from forested lands, have better defence values in forested regions, better at killing random beasts roaming forests. However may have a slight penalty in plains regions.

Turtles:

Can build wall and other defensive structures faster and cheaper. Also builds stronger walls than other civs. May take a longer time for military units to gain experience.

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Nanana. Yeah. I was bored. Blame eetmorsqrls.

Oppressive Rage:
Fallen Only
The nation is controlled by an upper caste that is prone to violent outbursts and wanton oppression is the norm. All soldiers automaticly start with Rage trait for free, but the player is unable to conscript citizens nor will they fight to defend their cities.

Bearlords:
Nation reveres bears as mounts above all others. Production of bears is doubled. Production of all other mount resources are tierced. Soldiers cannot use any mount except bears (they can, however, be traded (eaten?).

Alchemical Economy:
National economy is maintained largely by alchemists. Mana from shards is continously converted to gold at a set rate from the start. In addition to this, take +10% Inflation/-10% Economy permanently. Start with basic alchemy tech if applicable.

Sylvan Subrace:
Man Only
Throughout the ages your people have become a distinct race amongst men. All soldiers are faster on the field of battle. Bonus to archer and scout units. Penalty to armor and health to all soldiers. Breeding -5-10%.

Ravenous Nomads:
Your people are the descendants of a tribe of well-travelled nomads that have been on march since the cataclysm, scavenging or raiding for survival. Start with a comparatively huge area explored around your starting position and increased yields from raids or 'goody huts'. Take a permanent hit to diplomacy & espionage. Farming technologies are slightly harder to research.

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Culture of Sauna

Your people have cultivated a curious habbit of going to a hot room (called sauna) to cleanse yourselves. Endurance (hp) is increased and deserts / environmental effects / diseases don't hit your people so hard. Slower at moving though, since people are not willing to give up taking sauna's even during trips. Cities also hold slightly less people inside, due to using part of the living area for building sauna's.

Will of the Many

Your people are unable to act as single units (single soldier's can't be sent out / move very slowly), due to cultural factors heavily embracing group as the smallest unit. This leads to bonus when moving as bigger groups though (bigger cities & armies gain bonus into efficiency, maybe lower corruption).

Information Obsession

Your culture is heavily obsessed with finding new ideas or reshaping the old ones. Bonus to research occurs, but the debates on what is important slow down your people's movement. Because of trying to look innovative, your people are not as efficient in manufacturing.

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Polis based society: You really can't maintain more than a few cities (say half or a quarter of what is normal, depending on the positives assigned) without suffering crippling loyalty and efficiency penalties. However, you have a citizen army (when attacked your militia are equipped like median regular troops and have substantially better training than usual), a significant diplomatic bonus with any breakaway/released vassals or civs (loyalty to the mother city, which can deteriorate amid percieved interests), and significant bonuses to research, trade and espionage.

Think mandatory confederation, but one where the member states become wealthy and quite advanced. The downside is the inabiity to play anything other than a diplomatic game, and extreme difficulty conquering other nations (after all, forced vassals may be coerced into the confederation, but will look for any opportunity to cause trouble).

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Traits can be hidden from opponents, but there needs to be easy ways to find out things. Certain things should be apparent almost instantly on encounter. I obviously can tell that the race is all lizardman the second I see them. It also would be very easy to get a handle on what kind of society they are and therefore summizing that they are a farming or military faction would be known on encounter. There needs to be a way to find out all traits with some effort through spying or magic. Some traits can totally change the way you approach certain factions and not being able to find out and counter these differences means we might as well just play rock paper scissors.

It would also be interesting if certain traits were good specifically because they are very hard for other players to discover. That would add another layer of depth to trait creation.

If you can choose as many traits as you want I am going to be highly annoyed in multiplayer games when I open someone's window and see they have 25 traits that I have to read through, many of which would likely not be able to easily summize in a simple faction report screen. It would be a nightmare for newbies.

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Deepone - That Avatar, Was my man in Mom, and Deep ones, good ol X-com Tftd.

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Reptilian homage-> slight bonus to beast-mastery techs, slight negation to human/diplomacy espionage/trade techs. Armies with a reptile gain slight morale boost, armies with a dragon gain large morale boost. Upkeep for magical scaly critters is lower, treasury and population in captured cities is lower, due to tribute to your reptilian idols.

might have to pick a sub-set of reptiles to be "attuned" to ... aka all citizens have faster movement in swamps, penalties when crossing desert. Black Dragon

Or experience no fear/penalties from caverns, 10% fire resistance, strength bonus Red Dragon

Or faster in deserts, slower in jungle, 10% lightning resistance Blue

Faster in Forests, more agile, 5% strength penalty, acid immune Green

slight strength penalty, slight innovation/dexterity penalty, immune to gold damage White

stronger and faster, slower build times, slight overall magic resistance and attunement (if enabled to use magic) -> Gold

Higher morale, lower attack -> copper

Higher desert defense, stronger morale -> bronze

Diplomacy bonus, mountain bonus, 5% weakness to fire, strength bonus -> Silver

Where Gold, Silver, and Red would cost slightly more, or simply balance them with the rest and have them all free.

Its also not a strech to think there would be certain groups of lizardmen attuned to each of the draconic races ... half dragons if you will. These could be rogue nuetral beast races that can be hired out as mercenaries. If you picked the Bronze subset of reptilian homage, for instance, not only would Bronze Dragon have a significant morale and health bonus while in your army, but your army would also benefit from a large morale bonus and lack of fear, if perhaps a slower initiative, while the Dragon would have near double initiative (all wait on dragon to make a move)

back to the rogue lizardmen ... you would have significant bonuses when hiring bronze lizardmen mercenaries, and they would have a speed bonus for being part of your reptilian homage. also, if you happend to have a bronze dragon working along-side you, the lizardmen would be imbued with divine valor, and recieve a strength bonus. (in addition to the army's overall morale bonus for having Bronze homage warriors and a Bronze dragon combo)

this could lead to diplomacy penalties with other nations, especially if their civilization has particular reptile hating traits. For instance, depending on the direction taken, a Bear Lords trait could either see the Reptile Homage nation as a familiar wild-men approach, or they could choose to view lizards as arrogant and barbaric, and have excessive hatred and being elitist towards bears. I think it would depend on the values of the opposing sovereign, and perhaps also alignment barriers.

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