And look at the Japanese being on the opposite end on sex.  I'm sure they have the same discussions over there, just with different vices.

 That said, I have no idea what I'd consider Europeans faults to be.  I don't have enough exposure to European culture to say one way or another, I suppose.

 As to censored stuff I wouldn't want kids looking at that stuff either, though I'm sure like everyone else they're exposed to plenty of it over the internet.  I just wish there was a good way for adults to get uncut products without going to adult stores or installing badly done mods.  (Or ordering overseas copies off GoGamer, which seems to be the norm now that D2D doesn't seem to be offering uncut anymore.)

Well, I don't particularly care about that sort of thing, but I suppose a company like Stardock has to keep the lawsiuts @ bay..... and considering where this country was 40, 20, or even 5 years agou, this current bout of "sexophobia" doesn't seem all that bad....

How would an optional download for a title (identitcal to a mod) not packaged with the retail box (which is what is reviewed) version change the rating on the retail version?

That would be an interesting solution, but I don't think the ESRB would appreciate it...unless there were some sort of deeper registration and age check system in place.

Key is you don't sell it and you don't release it officially. Just forward it to me and I'm sure it'll find its way into the wild. Game makers are not responsible for fan mods

This is the best way to handle it, do a small, low priced optional digital download that will 'mature' the game.  Let that have a different rating to the base game. Kids will still be able to torrent pirate it or whatever but if the kid knows how to do that he can see a lot more than a few polygon nipples.

Naaahhhh.... If anything like that was made by SD, even unofficially, it would almost immediately be traced back to them and land them in EXTREMELY hot water with most everybody. Probably wouldn't get them shut DOWN, but their reputation would be cooked. Just look @ what happened w/ Hot Coffee..... The only way something like that would be able to slip under the radar is if it was made entirely by modders, and even then Stardock couldn't host it w/o getting in the same trouble as above....

The Witcher EE had a European and North American release. The NA one was the censored one, but it wasn't hard to find information on how to revert it back to the European version.

But yeah, a seperate application that converts the game rating would probably be the best way, so the main game maintains a friendlier rating. Though really, I'm not sure how much this particular game would gain by being M instead of T.

Hot coffee was freaking stupid.  If any of them had even seen the content involved, they would've said 'well damn, that's still not even close to R rated in movie terms.' and not gone into a hissy fit.  TV and print media are for old people by old people, so of course they don't usually even try to understand new entertainment.

(Yes, of course I recognize the fan backlash has wisened them up to some degree, but the Mass Effect controversy says 'not much.')

Would it not be a stand alone work of art, that in itself, it would not be a game and accordingly not be subject to a review? Moreover it need not be sold; it could simply be a gift to the community.

If it was offered by the company directly or indirectly, it would be viewed as circumventing the official ratings.  Lots of people would be up in arms.

While I agree that the ESRB is a worthless piece of crap, I just don't see the point in Stardock going out of their way to make content that won't be considered during the rating process just so we can have topless women running around in our fantasy 4X game. Especially considering they will be slammed for it. The rating system will only change when American culture changes and learns to accept that the human body is not some obscene shameful thing that anyone below the age of 18 needs to be shielded from.

Censorship in moderation is a good thing IMO - extreme violence and graphic sex shouldn't be paraded in front of children, it's just bizarre that the former is widely accepted and almost all children are exposed to it in various forms of entertainment and media, while the latter is the worst taboo imaginable... Even though quite frankly, if I had to choose between one or the other, I'd have chosen the reverse.

Sadly Stardock has to cave to ESRB's insane demands or risk losing all sales that would be from wal*mart or even gamestop.   I understand them as one of those evils that you let survive in the world, because destroying them might mean something even worse:

a horde of angry stupid parents who can find somebody to blame other than themselves for why their children turned out to be crazy, or not because chances are that the child was not scared by whatever it was.  And they want to blame somebody anyway because they saw something that didn't look intented for audiances under the age of 10, and it makes them feel better about themselves or something.  (sad part is, these angry parents can vote, and a big enough horde can break destroy things like "liberty", "freedom of speech", and "persuit of happiness"   And common sense has kept them far enough away from the movie and music industry that they are allowed to be more "radical" than current video games are, but that could change if we are not careful.

Videogames are the biggest reason I was excited that Joe Lieberman lost in the primaries in '06, only to have my heart crushed when he still won under the "Connecticut for Lieberman" party...

His annual round-up of shame irks me whenever I see it on CSPAN..

But there is no "official" as in government required review process. Additionally, as to the people that would get up in arms - fuck'em. They would surely not be paying customers in the first place.

While that is undoubtedly true, that doesn't mean they couldn't organize boycotts or stir up other trouble.  ESPECIALLY the children safety groups.

The only way it would work is if it was backed by an age control and registration/activation system, so that it couldn't find its way into the hands of children without cracking the software.  And that's probably way too much work for little benefit, especially considering you'd get more negative feedback than positive.

Yeah, even with an age-control system I doubt that it woudn't effect the ratings..... it did with GTA....

All this nippleation will hopefully NOT slow down the release of the game.

If there are none on your models and you want them (or if there are and you don't want them! ) - MOD it!

The simple solution is to sell it online only which requires a credit card for purchase. Seems to me such a thing fits right in with SD focus anyway.

There really is no discussion necessary. If it gets released as a fan mod, the ESRB won't care. Google adult Oblivion mods or adult Fallout mods if you don't believe me.

We need to get our facts straight here:

1) Elemental is not going to be a AAA title like Rockstar's GTA series. Elemental might be a better game, but it's simply not going to get as much exposure.

2) ESRB doesn't care about fan mods. The whole GTA fiasco was because the sex minigame was ON THE DISC.

3) I'm 100% serious. The dev team can make a mod, and let the fans "leak" it. End of story.

Why are some stores lapdogs to ESRB ?    Is it to be able to have some stupid "children safety store" sign or something dumb like that ??

I haven't heard the same about some stores caving in to PEGI. Guess it's because that Europeans are dropping religion.

Did you know that it was Mortal Kombat that caused the founding of the ESRB ?

Except for the fact that it would easily be linked back to the dev team, would probably jump the rating as a result (especially if someone wanted to sell it), and embroil Stardock in a mid-sized scandal that would pretty much cement the company as "the porn people". The fact is, if it comes from the devs, everyone will soon know it. Mods are checked for content, and my understanding of the law involved (parents are lawers) is that if it appeared for download, anyone whose kid downloaded it could sue the crap out of the modder, the moderator who let it in, and SD in general.

Marketing. Lots of Americans are of the "protect the children from the terrible sin that is human sexuality" mindset. This is capitalism at work, stores see a market and try to foster a "family friendly" image to cater to that market.