Scoutdog Scoutdog

Esbionage system and victory condition.....

Esbionage system and victory condition.....

https://forums.galciv2.com/328231/page/49/#2232455

A few days ago, I came up with an Esbionage Victory condition for GC3 (link @ top of post, for those who are interested). GWSwicord saw it, and apparently took a liking to it, as he thinks it would look good in Elemental. Of course, we know so very little about the esbionage system in Elemental and whether there will even BE one, but assuming that it works like the one in GC2, all you would need to do is achieve the highest possible esbionage level on every surviving empire. Now, if the system worked EXACTLY like GC2's, this would create a large spend+wait-fest, so I have come up with an Elemental esbionage system:

  1. Spies are a special type of unit that you can train in your cities. They take a set amount of money to train that increases with each consecutive spy, but that money can be cut by techs and buildings. When you have trained a spy, you can keep training him and adding gear to him just like a regular unit, or give him extra esbionage training that increases his effectiveness. You can then send him out onto the map to get to another city.
  2. When the spy is on the map, he can do one of two things. He can strike out over land, at which point he becomes just like a regular unit of yours (no way for the other guy to tell that he's a spy) and behaves the same way, too, but he needs to be trained like a regular soldier to do so. He can also join a caravan, but only if he is carrying no other gear. If the caravan is interrupted and destroyed, you lose the spy.
  3. When the caravan reaches the city, the spy enters that city. If the spy comes in overland, he can enter a city covertly, but has a % chance of failing and getting caught. You can decrease this chance the longer you train the spy. When the spy has entered the city, you can assign him to any of the buildings.
  4. When you assign a spy to a building, he goes to work in that building. Each type of building has an esbionage type, minimum value, maximum value, and some have a discovery value.
  • Type is the type of info you get from the building: research buildings give you info on whatever they are researching, forges give you info on what they are making, et cetera. Buildings like capitals or taverns give you info on everything, as well as stuff you can't get from  the others like race stats.
  • Minimum value is the amount of info "points" the spy CAN collect. The actual amount can be higher or lower depending on how oong you trained him. The number also grows slowly the longer he is on the building (exactly how quickly is dependant upon training, again) until it reaches
  • the max value. This is as high as you CAN go for that particular building. Now, of course, something like a stable would have a very low value, while a town hall or an empire capital would have a very high value.
  • The juicier bouildings (tavenrs, garrisons, castles, etc.) also have an increased risk of capture, as giverned by the capture value.

5.  The spy stores information until you tell him to dump it to you, as opposed to instantly revealing it. If he gets captured, whatever info he had is no longer accessible, unless you resue him by sending another spy into the city.

6. Every time you tell your spy to do something (switch buildings, dump info, leave the city, and so on), he runs the risk of being captured. This risk is increased by the building's natural risk level (see above). A spy could sit for an infinate amount of time on a building with no internal risk and never be caught, but there is a constant, low-level threat of capture if the risk level is above 0.

7. If a spy is captured, you will get a hefty diplo penalty with that empire, but it decreases over time. If you let the spy sit there for X number of turns, he will be executed, and you will (obviously) lose him forever. Except for a "resurrect dead spy" spell.... In any case, before that time, you can send another spy in to resue the one in jail. This carries a bit of risk, as there is a fair chance that one or the other will be killed or (re)captured, or that both will. However, such a resure will dramatically boost your morale.

8. There are human and fallen spies. A human spy can only go to human-contr cities, and vice virsa. Spies of the opposite race are much, much (I was thinking of 2X more) expensive.

9. The info you have from a spy won't go away if you make him leave the city, but it will not update, and your esbionage level will decrease.

10. Lastly, you can build improvements in a city to increase the risk of detection in all of the buildings, or fund police efforts. If you put in too much policing, however, your citizens will start to get ticked.

11. I will probably add some kind of "sabotage" mechanic, but not right now.

60,058 views 107 replies
Reply #51 Top

I'm all for espionage being abstracted away. However, that might feel somewhat out of place. While I obviously haven't played the game yet, it seems like a more hands-on, you see everything kind of a game, as opposed to a Europe Universalis type, ie very abstracted. I think it would also be appropriate to allow heroes to spy. That would be a fun system that wouldn't get out of hand. Since heroes would be relatively rare, you wouldn't have to worry about constantly fixing your kingdom after spy attacks.

I don't think a spymaster victory condition would be necessary. Maybe some espionage-focused quests on the quest path would be excellent.

Reply #52 Top

When will we find a cure four the scourge of selecitve readingitis? I specifically said that such a system would not be RNG-based.......
End of quote

 

Some time after we cure those living in denial?  How exactly do you propose to design a system that doesn't get decided on random number rolls?  Your thread post is riddled with chance this and chance that, how, if not by random number generation, would you do anything you've suggested?

Reply #53 Top

How exactly do you propose to design a system that doesn't get decided on random number rolls?
End of quote
Well, I'm still working on the specifics, but I'm thinking of something involving people being employed in different buildings, with the spy being essentially "moved" by the player being spied on (who doesn't know the citizen is a spy, of course)...... I realize that the OP does involve a lot of dice rolls, but I've done some thinking since then...... the OP was a little rushed.

Reply #54 Top

Well, if you happen to come up with anything functional that isn't batshit insane, or really really boring, let me know.  I can't.

Reply #55 Top

Well, if you happen to come up with anything functional that isn't batshit insane, or really really boring, let me know.  I can't.
End of quote

What he said. So far, no one anywhere has proposed a functional espionage system (that incorporates more than just plain old spying) that wouldn't be a micromanagement nightmare, a money/resource sink (throw money at it and your problems will go away), or a combination of the two.

Reply #56 Top

Well, I think there is a way to make espionage interesting without causing too much micro-management. You just have to change the focus of spies are used for.

In the real world, spies are used for three things: information gathering, stealing technology and sabotage.

Most of the proposals I've read on this thread have focused on information gathering, but in a game like Elemental, much relevant information will be given away to players without the need for spies, such as the location of cities, the number of units guarding cities, racial info, etc.

I therefore propose the following: a MOO2 style spy system. Here's how it works:

Your cities build spies. You can move them accross the map like regular units, but are invisible to enemies when on their own. They have poor combat skills.

Spies can enter enemy cities with little chance of getting caught. Having spies in a city gives you access to a bit more info than you can usually get. The more spies you have in the city, the more info you have access to. With 5 spies in a city (max), you'll know what buildings and units are being built, what's being researched, etc. Spies that are simply info-gathering have a very low chance-per-turn of being caught.

Spies in cities can also perform actions. These actions are more likely to succeed the more spies you have in a town. These actions can be accessed in the same way as other unit abilities. Here are the options:

1) Steal resources: Spies can steal common resources, such as money or building materials. Low chance of being caught, you can set spies to do this every turn without manually going back to the spy. When caught, a single spy is destroyed.

2) Steal research: Spies can leach research points each turn, and have a small chance of learning enemy spells. Spies have an average chance to be caught at this.

3) Sabotage structure: Spies can weaken or destroy defensive structures. High chance of being caught, and if caught all spies are destroyed.

4) Poison the Wells: Gives all defending units a bad status effect (eg "poisoned"). High chance of being caught, and if caught all spies are destroyed.

5) Assassinate unit: Spies can kill any unit stationed in the town. All spies are destroyed whether this action is successful or not.

These ideas give players two options: gather useful info and don't worry about your spies, or have them do stuff and possibly lose the info. There could also be the option of leaving spies defensively in your own cities to increase the chance of catching enemy spies. The drawbacks to spies would be the cost and upkeep of maintaining them. If spies are useful by just sitting around, they wouldn't force frequent game-play decisions on the player which might cause the game to bog down.

Do you guys like my ideas here?

Reply #57 Top

Spies should be heroes, that's a given. The evidence is clear that other systems simply don't work as well. And spies shouldn't all be alike, either. Not every spy specializes in structural sabotage. One might be useful for influencing relations and could be used to secure hard-to-get diplomatic agreements (a la Grima Wormtongue), another might be an assassin, another might be useful for turning the tide of a battle, another might be useful for creating domestic unrest/order. 

SPIES SHOULD NOT BE PRODUCEABLE LIKE GRUNTS.

Each spy should be specialized, unique, and very valuable. This is an espionage system I'm sure anyone can get behind. It's not overly intrusive and any empire can choose to all but ignore it and still be effective. 

Reply #58 Top

Spies should be heroes, that's a given.
End of quote

While I like the idea of rare spies and specialist spies, the idea of all spies having to be heroes is a bit restrictive, considering that in Elemental heroes will be people in which you have invested essence in, and thus increadibly hard to get, especially for a city-building player.

Reply #59 Top

Quoting SavageBananaMan34, reply 57
... Each spy should be specialized, unique, and very valuable. This is an espionage system I'm sure anyone can get behind. It's not overly intrusive and any empire can choose to all but ignore it and still be effective. 
End of SavageBananaMan34's quote

I doubt everyone will get behind any one thing, but I can hazily imagine some satisying espionage compromises based on special abilities for champions. It would do away with any need for a Spymaster's Desk sort of UI and keep 'micro' overhead to a minumum while also ensuring that the 'spying experience' had interesting variations from game to game.

Man, I wish that alpha NDA weren't there. Some peanut gallery folks almost surely now know a bit about the state of the champions so far.

Reply #60 Top

It would do away with any need for a Spymaster's Desk sort of UI
End of quote
Now there's the problem. I want a Spymaster's Desk UI, becuase I want espionage to be a method of winning the game. A champion-based system would

  1. Make it harder for players who don't "go Gandalf" to engage in espionage, and
  2. Make it just an extension of military victory, as opposed to its own strategy.
Reply #61 Top

Scoutdog, I suspect you have an exaggerated idea of how difficult it will be to accrue a respectable 'stable' of champions while also controlling a decent chunk of territory. (Plus, I don't actually expect to see 'going Gandalf' as a viable option even though I coined the phrase; playing without founding communities is a pretty wacky notion for a TBS game, and the devs probably would already had to have it in mind for the engine design to make such a thing 'balanced.')

I also don't get you at all on point 2. How does a champion-centered espionage system mutate espionage wins into a military victory? It seems like it would do the opposite 'by definition' because it would mean choosing to develop some or most of your champions as spies and not as field officers or super-soldiers.

Mind you, I'm just sniffing around for a consensus I like. I'd prefer a Spymaster's Desk thingie as well, but I'm also some kind of 'micromangement pervert' because my only common complaint about a game getting too 'spreadsheety' is that the UI is too mouse-dependent and there is insufficient support for smart batch operations like upgrading all ships of Class X in a GC2 fleet instead of having to upgrade them one at a time or upgrade every ship period.

Reply #62 Top

Scoutdog, I suspect you have an exaggerated idea of how difficult it will be to accrue a respectable 'stable' of champions while also controlling a decent chunk of territory.
End of quote
Well, I'm just going off of what we know about essence mechanics: that a champion requires essence to make, a lot of essence to make good, and that that essence is a permanent investment that can never be recovered. As for number 2, a champion is essentially a powerful field unit that behaves as a field unit: it can't walk into enemy cities and mingle around with the populace, and it is designed to be able to participate in and attack during battles. Either the stealth ability would have to drastically alter the coding properties of the champion "object", or it would be ill-suited for spying.

EDIT: Now, being able to make champions out of spies........ that could be useful. A little bit of the E-juice, and you've suddenly got James Bond......

Reply #63 Top

Quoting Scoutdog, reply 58

Spies should be heroes, that's a given.


While I like the idea of rare spies and specialist spies, the idea of all spies having to be heroes is a bit restrictive, considering that in Elemental heroes will be people in which you have invested essence in, and thus increadibly hard to get, especially for a city-building player.
End of Scoutdog's quote

I don't remember that heroes needed to have essence imbued in them in order to be heroes. Link?

I thought imbuing them with essence allowed the unit thus imbued the ability to gain essence when they leveled, possibly some spell casting ability, and the ability to then imbue essence to other units. That is it afaik. I am 90% sure that the idea that a unit needs to have essence imbued to be a hero is either false, or at the very least has not been explicitly stated.

Reply #64 Top

Scoutdog, what kind of espionage victory do you envision separate from a military or diplomatic victory? I envision a spy as either weakening an empire so you can conquer it, manipulating leaders so you can persuade them to back you up in a diplomatic victory scenario or turning them into vassals (Grima style), or causing your culture to take hold in enemy cities until they convert to you. 

When you say espionage victory, I'm envisioning some kind of "you stole the KFC recipe you win" type of deal. What exactly do you mean when you say espionage victory? 

Reply #65 Top

When you say espionage victory, I'm envisioning some kind of "you stole the KFC recipe you win" type of deal. What exactly do you mean when you say espionage victory?
End of quote
Well, the idea was to become sort of the "shadow government of Middle Earth", where all leaders are under your control, vassals as you put it. If the condition was disabled, you would have to do something with all those vassals, and you could still do that if there was a "continue playing" button a la Civ 4. It's sort of like in GC2, when everybody is allied with you you lose your competiton, hence alliance victory.

Reply #66 Top

Quoting Denryu, reply 63
... I don't remember that heroes needed to have essence imbued in them in order to be heroes. Link? ...
End of Denryu's quote

The best single chunk I remember is in Brad's July FAQ OP, which includes the sentence, "The channeler might choose to imbue a hero with 5 essence points to make him into a channeler." For me, the surrounding context leaves me thinking, but not at all certain, that recruiting heroes is one thing and imbuing them with essence is an option after you have recruited them.

Quoting Scoutdog, reply 62
... As for number 2, a champion is essentially a powerful field unit that behaves as a field unit: it can't walk into enemy cities and mingle around with the populace, and it is designed to be able to participate in and attack during battles. ...
End of Scoutdog's quote

Now I echo Denryu's link request. I don't recall any dev prose on the subject and a few of the screenshots look very much to me like units can enter towns. If they can enter towns and walk around streets, why not enter buildings (building interiors could end up as a sub-class of dungeon spaces) as well? Spying aside, I still want to see some champion units that are better suited to helping out towns than they are for field duty, like Master Farmers or Master Traders.

Reply #67 Top

Well scoutdog what you described is exactly a diplomatic victory from GC2, except you have to take the extra one minute to sign the alliance pacts. So there would be no need to have a separate "espionage victory." Galciv already covered the military, influence, diplomatic, and tech bases. I guess Elemental could use a "quest" victory, but that's for another time. 

Reply #68 Top

Well scoutdog what you described is exactly a diplomatic victory from GC2, except you have to take the extra one minute to sign the alliance pacts.
End of quote
No, no: alliance victory was diplomatically based. Espionage victory is espionage based, and more one-sided: you don't just make friends, you take control.

Reply #69 Top

But when you've taken control of all the enemy governments you can then force them to sign alliances with you, giving you diplomatic victory...

It's not really a separate condition. It takes an extra minute to do. 

Reply #70 Top

From what we know so far, you need to defeat an opponent's summoner to truly beat them - and I just don't see any way to beat an enormously powerful wizard through spy tricks. Weaken his civilization to erode the support it gives him, or force him to expend essence to hold it together after you sow discord, yes those I see likely. What I don't see is a sudden "oh, you got one of sauron's agents promoted to be Gandalf's personal secretary, so now you can control everything he sees and does" style victory.

Reply #71 Top

Quoting WIllythemailboy, reply 70
From what we know so far, you need to defeat an opponent's summoner to truly beat them - and I just don't see any way to beat an enormously powerful wizard through spy tricks. Weaken his civilization to erode the support it gives him, or force him to expend essence to hold it together after you sow discord, yes those I see likely. What I don't see is a sudden "oh, you got one of sauron's agents promoted to be Gandalf's personal secretary, so now you can control everything he sees and does" style victory.
End of WIllythemailboy's quote

"Enormously powerful" doesn't necessarily mean omniscient. I'm beginning to think an espionage game ending is perhaps too RPGish for this first version of Elemental, but one way I was envisioning that closure was pretty much what you don't see happening. Sovereigns are still people of some sort, and presumably like all good characters in a story, they have flaws. Why shouldn't a sovereign be able to become over-trusting of an inner circle or over-confident in his or her ability to keep an inner circle cowed through fear?

Fneh. Maybe Scoutdog and I are just way too early in pining for the second expansion pack for Elemental III.

Reply #72 Top

Do you guys like my ideas here?
End of quote

 

No, dice roll systems blow.  Get lucky, kick ass, get unlucky, die horribly.  If I wanted to play a slot machine, I'd hit the nearest casino.

 

Before you guys start arguing over an espionage victory, someone needs to come up with a system that doesn't suck.  Until then, whether it's too rpgish or whatever is rather irrelevant.  As long as the options for spies all fall into the domain of the almighty rng, we're fucked.

Reply #73 Top

I have to agree with Psy here, RNGs are the bane of my existance, and should be exceptions, as opposed to the norm. A little randomness isn't bad (especially if it isn't so much random as specifically directed by the game to make things more fun), but the thing should be primerily skill-based.

Reply #74 Top

Goodmorning all

The ultimate Espionage victory would be that all the opposing mages end up completely surrounded by your agents,  They think they are giving order on how to run thier faction, but infact all the information they ever recieve is a lie, a cleaverly manufactured lie.  If they cast a scry spell, your agents know it's going to be cast before it is, and set up a decoy so that what the wizard sees is what they expect to see. Entire towns cease to take orders from the Channler, but the channler doesn't know, doesn't even suspect. untill it's too late. Complete governmental reoganization, a silent Coup.



Also Regarding Champian Spys ... There are two ways to see this, regular hero units who also have spy abilities. (really not fun, spy becomes military)

or Special spy units that are individulized to the level that you them and thier roles by name (I would like to see this).

I still think it is a huge mistake to make Spy units field units.  Sabatoage and Assasination are Gorilla war tactics and should be restricted to the military stream.  Make high cammo units that can sweep in and target individual units to one on one combat, or who can drop a vial of liquid death # 8 upstream of some unsuspecting town. But please don't call them spys, and don't involve them in the spy system. 

I for one would really like there to be a Spy masters desk, with missions and specialists, and spy reports.  A seperate place where you command your most loyal and devious units who walk amounst the opposition unsuspected, trusted.

I agree Spy units should NOT have assasination and sabataoge abilities there is no good way of doing it that doesn't beg for save hit try it, if it fails load, repeat till the great random number generator in the sky smiles on you.  All spy missions should be long term with progressive effects. 

For example, Stealing a Lump sum of gold isn't something a spy does, setting up a system to syphen profits out of a town until the town governance is so corrupt that all of it's profit is being re-directed on the sly... way cooler. Setting that up in such a way that it can't be detected which town is failing to pull it's weight, Cooler still.   Robbing a bank is a millitary stratagy, Get in, bust stuff up, Get out and hide. Corrupting the system itself THAT is spy work.

The benifit of this system is that there are few or no important Random Number Gernations in the spy system, and it's addaptable to many different playstyles.

Anyway that's my two cents.

Take care all.

Robbie Price

Reply #75 Top

there is no good way of doing it that doesn't beg for save hit try it, if it fails load, repeat till the great random number generator in the sky smiles on you.
End of quote
I would hesitate to agree with you there: a streight-up skill matchup has no random elements.

EDIT: However, you have an excellent point that a real spy wouldn't just steal stuff, (s)he'd arrainge for it to be moved legitimately.