Richard Heaton Richard Heaton

The computer doesn't cheat at Intelligent, and I am the Dalai Lama (with proof!)

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The computer doesn't cheat at Intelligent, and I am the Dalai Lama (with proof!)

from Stardock Forums
Okay, I got sick of simply whining that the computer cheats and decided to develop some proof.

http://www.restorethepledge.com/rapacity/GalCiv/superaltarians.zip

That's a saved game in which the Altarians are blowing everyone away in every department for no apparent reason. Their economy is leaving everyone in the dust, and that is fueling everything else to also leave everyone in the dust. DON'T try to tell me that it's because they are exacting tribute from the other players. If you look at the graphs you will see that their military buildup is about two thirds of the way across the graph, while their economic/technological/manufacturing dominance starts way back at the beginning, probably in the first year of play before they have even MET any other players and certainly before they have enough firepower to scare them into paying tribute.

http://www.restorethepledge.com/rapacity/GalCiv/supertorians.zip

That's a saved game in which the Torians are doing the same thing at the BEGINNING OF THE SECOND YEAR. If you spend some time spying on them you'll see that their economic bonus is something like 23% (I forget the exact number, but not above 30%). In that game I happened to have tried a strong-arm approach, so my economic graph sucks, but I usually play with a total beginning economic bonus of 30% and I can sure tell you that I do not get that kind of result.

So my question is, if the computer isn't cheating, where is all this economy coming from? It is too early in the game for extortion, and too early in the game for mass sale of trade goods (which I don't think the computer does anyway... especially since any given computer typically has only 1 or 2 trade goods). When I ask for advice from the experienced players on how to beat the computer at Intelligent, I invariably get one of the following:

1) Insults; or

2) Advice that I (a) rush trade goods and/or (b) bankrupt the computers.

But the computer doesn't do (a) or (b). It sure doesn't rush trade goods... it snaps up one or two here or there, so it's not taking that approach. And I don't think it's even selling the ones it does get. Also, even when you beat the computer to every trade good, you are still barely keeping up. And the computer doesn't do silly things like building starbases and selling them to the computer to create an economic drag. It will bankrupt other computers by extortion, but that's a little later on. So how come you have to do things the computer doesn't do to keep up? I challenge anybody to beat the computer at Intelligent without using any tactics that the computer does not use. Everything I hear is a variation on "Do [something the computer never thinks to do] and you can beat it. It doesn't cheat." But if it doesn't cheat, you should be able to beat it without giving it economy drag items or doing the trade good rush, right? Or at least not get blown out of the water.

Anyway, I think it should be apparent from those saved games that the computer does indeed cheat at Intelligent. I would love to have someone explain how it's doing that, bearing in mind that the computer cannot possibly be getting any money from extortion.

-Drake

~SDC~
1,658 views 45 replies
Reply #26 from Stardock Forums Top
Staffa,

At maso, the AI get PQ and morale bonuses among others(Za H reported about +20% each previously). So your 16 PQ planet was a 19 under the AI and they reached max population with 100% morale rather quickly.
Reply #27 from Stardock Forums Top
"Im curious how the AI is managing morale on some of
its systems I culturally flip.

I take a 16 pq planet with influence that has 30
billion people on it. Its morale is so god awful
low that I have to unload half the pop and rush
buy about 4 improvements before its not a threat
to goto the I-league. Exactly how does the AI manage
to get planets like this?"

"At maso, the AI get PQ and morale bonuses among others(Za H reported about +20% each previously). So your 16 PQ planet was a 19 under the AI and they reached max population with 100% morale rather quickly."


There's another possibility, and since you mentioned rush building 4 things ASAP I suspect it's the likely one. The AI will use 'scorched earth' tactics if a planet is in danger of defecting for a while and it doesn't seem likely to be able to save it. It destroys *every* improvement on the colony and lets you clean up the mess when it flips. Though, sometimes it goes over to the I-League first... and then it flips to you and you get to deal with it. Pretty devious.

SoundPackager - Customize the Windows sound scheme
Reply #28 from Stardock Forums Top
The AI does scorched earth? That's good.

I did an experiment once and found that I could trade planets for a peace treaty with or without improvements. So I obviously scorched them before I traded them over. Quite tedious to destroy all improvements one by one.

In another instance, I found that I could get less techs trading a scorched system so I'm still not too sure whether the AIs considers the improvements on the system to determine its value. It should - it would make scorching a tactical decision.
Reply #29 from Stardock Forums Top
Ok, I downloaded the Supertorians 2 game, and played it for 1 year, from Sept 2080 to Aug 2081. After only 1 year, (actually only 11 turns), I more than doubled the economy. I got the econ graph to be about 25% higher than the second place Torians. And if I could have started earlier in the game, it could have been much higher by that point. Here is how it was done:

Your starting income at startup was 92BC. . .

First off, your tax rate was at 29%, not sure why. I upped it to 39% right away, which is probably the best tax setting to have pretty much the whole game.

With the increaced revenue I increaced your spending slider up.

Next, I switched all your spending over to social, 100%. In one year, all your planets had built soil enrichment and banking center.

At the end of the 1 year you income was at 192BC more than double what it was at the start of the year. That was only from taxes, no trade or tribute.

Here's some tips for the future:

Before the first turn, change tax rate to 39%.

First thing is the colony ship rush, which it looks like you already got that down just fine.

After all the colonizing, then switch to 100% research for a few turns. It looks like you had the research paths correct also, I always research these three right away: Communication Theory -> Universal Translater -> Diplomacy
If you really want to micromanage, then you can adjust your sliders so that they don't waste extra research, but that's not too important.

Then, after you have those three researched (and switched government to Republic), then change slider to 100% social. Build on all your planets Soil Enrichment and Banking center. That can about double your income.

After that point you can drop social to 0% to switch over to military or research trade or whatever, but you'll have a much stronger economy to play with.

I hope those tips help!

~SDC~
Reply #30 from Stardock Forums Top
By the way AI knows not only where are yellow stars, but also a number of 15+ planets on these stars.

~SDC~
Reply #31 from Stardock Forums Top
Staffa,

Maybe the AI had morale resources mined. They make a *huge* difference in my games. That or they have some inate bonus to morale. Or when a planet is conquered, the effect is to lower morale, b/c subjugated people tend to have lower morale.

Unfortunately we can only guess at the factors that go into morale since i don't think they are stated in any detail anywhere. (It is also possible that the morale calculation is really very simple and only based on population and planet size and economy). In the strategy forums frogboy talked about this. Still i think there is something missing from the simple morale model.

Link is here. http://www.galciv.com/forum.asp?BID=GS&id=39453#43769
[Message Edited]
Reply #32 from Stardock Forums Top
If the AI is cheating on intelligent, then call me the Dhali lama. Finished my first game on all intelligent...cleaned house. Anyway, having a hardtime on masochistic now...AI definitely cheats. The dude needs to learn how to use econ. sliders effectively.
As far as Staffa goes, yeah, how do I wind up with morale 1 planets?
Maybe AI knows there will be a cultural flip so they dump everything they built (since they know it will flip any moment now), which in turn would give you trouble when you inherit the system, cause you need to build quick...if I need to give up a system, I would dump everything I have on it, but I would even take population with me? Maybe AI calculates - total racial population with PQ with cultural flip and unloads as much as it can, so the rest of their empire does not get hurt too badly...hmm...
Reply #33 from Stardock Forums Top
Regarding moral on newly colonized or captured planets, I think there is a facor to how long you have been on the planet and the PQ of the planet you left versus the PQ of the new planet...

Eg. I accidentily colonized a PQ 12 planet on system which already had a PQ 19 planet with approx 20000 pop. End result PQ12 planet had 10000 pop and moral at 1! So instead of reloading a save game I rushed a colony ship to re-colonize the PQ19 PLANET back up to 20000. Amazingly when I did that the PQ 19 planet got a moral of approx 30, when its moral was in the 50's 2 turns previously.... Soon however its moral started going up on its own....even taking into account further moral gains and tax changes.

So from my experience, colonists can be a bit piss*ed off when they first arrive but recover after a while. Maybe it was from the shock of suddenly being dumped on a PQ 12 planet :).

Anyone else had similar experience?

~SDC~
Reply #34 from Stardock Forums Top
Re the AIs knowing where the yellow stars are. This I found a little jarring as it's a holdover from the OS/2 version. But that had a different back story where your single colony ship goes through a wormhole to a galaxy far far away. The locals of course knew from observation where the yellow stars were whereas you have to go look. WTH - it's a game. Maybe they forgot about telescopes the same way the Enterprise designers forgot about fuses.
;)
Reply #35 from Stardock Forums Top
"Maybe AI knows there will be a cultural flip so they dump everything they built (since they know it will flip any moment now), which in turn would give you trouble when you inherit the system, cause you need to build quick"

Yeah, that's exactly what they do. You can even catch them in the act. If you notice that one of their sectors has had planets with skulls 'n crossbones for a long time, go click on one of their planets. It'll probably have a listed morale of 1.
Reply #36 from Stardock Forums Top
What can I say? You guys were absolutely right. I reloaded the game and cranked the tax rate. Whamo. Instantly beating out every computer on every graph. MAN this game is subtle. Before I was stifling my population growth with excessive taxes... then I went too low and hampered development. Everything is such a fine line. I find that now that I know what I'm doing, I am *constantly* watching the tax/morale levels and also every one of the graphs except for influence. Tight play.

And yes, I was finally able to beat the computer on intelligent without selling trade goods or trying bully tactics. It wasn't as easy as I had hoped, though. I toasted the computer in the early game, but now I am having substantial trouble in the middle game. Although it's not so bad that I can't win, I end up getting behind and having to bust out with cheesy tactics like the infamous "suprise! I just blew up all your starbases in one turn... here, take a trade good and let's end this nasty little war." Or culturally dominating, obviously, which is easy. You can crank those starbases up to like +300%.

I have a few questions which I would like an experienced player or two to answer that I hope will help my middle game.. now that I finally feel like I'm getting somewhere. First, what do people build in what order in terms of social projects? It seems to be the unanimous opinion that certain items are not worth building, ever. Personally I don't build news networks, embassies, and other ones that have several small miscellaneous effects. I don't build almost *anything* with a maint. of over 2, either, except of course for ones which have an econ. bonus and so can pay their own way.

Second, what do your research patterns look like? I *always* go communications theory, universal translator, diplomacy, trade, medical theory, zero g research, basic habitat control, propulsion theory, cold fusion, industrial theory, interstellar refining. After that it gets more interesting.

And lastly, and I think this is where I may be handicapping myself, what party and racial bonuses do you take? I use the Federalists, which I think is fine. But I am starting to wonder about my racial picks. I have this nice even spread...lucky, brave, creative, +10 econ, +10 tech, +10 trade, +10 diplomacy, +10 morale, +10 influence. Maybe I need to specialize. I am particularly thinking of dropping the +10 diplomacy, since in my experience diplomacy bonuses do NOTHING. In my last game I went for technological victory, but before I did I researched every stinking tech on the tree. So my diplomacy bonus was at +plenty. And yet I still could not get the Yor, who had had two planets the whole game and jack for diplo. bonuses to deal fairly.

Anyway. Now stuck in middle game. Please help?

-Drake

~SDC~
Reply #37 from Stardock Forums Top
Social production generally is
soil/habite improvement/entertainment/+morale improves

Your research path is very good, though I rarely
research much of it and get the vast majority in
trade from computers.

Your racial picks are pretty bad imo.

I take +2 speed +20 pop growth and populist.

Speed is expensive but you cant beat it for land grab
pop growth cause that never hurts and populist
cause its +20 +20 in two useful stats.

Reply #38 from Stardock Forums Top
I like fed and + 30 econ so I'm roling in cash. +15 morale helps me tax higher and +2 sensor range make scouting much quicker.
Reply #39 from Stardock Forums Top
FWIW I've won lots of games with all AIs set at intelligent, and my impression is that the AIs do not cheat. Instead, I think one or more AIs just randomly tend to get better starting positions. At different times I've had problems with all of the AIs. Somewhat paradoxically, since they're always "saintly," I seem to have the worst time most often with the Altarians.

After much tinkering, my own choice for best set-up is:
Populists +20 diplomacy and +20 morale
Diplomacy +30 (or is it +50?)
Speed +1
Morale +10

Almost all of the start choices are valuable, but I think Diplomacy is the most important with Morale a fairly close second. I'm no longer taking PQ bonus, but I still take Luck fairly often.

My approach to a Morale 1 planet that keeps flipping is to destroy the colony and start over.

39 percent does appear to be the best tax rate, from start to finish. I now set that at turn 1 and never change it. With high morale boosts, one can experiment with 49, but it seems to turn out better at 39. After all, that's what the AI uses.

Miscellaneous point: in my current game I have many techs that the AIs do not have, and no AI has a single tech I do not have, and yet the main screen tech chart shows me as #2 or #3 in tech. I presume this means that the chart measures research capacity, or perhaps research spending, but not research achievement.

Considering how good this game is, I'm a little disappointed that the AIs almost never mount a successful invasion. AI combat transports should have a line of code that sets their movement rate to 0 if they are not within 2 squares of a friendly dreadnought or something. When the Altarians started their current war with me, their military was twice mine. Now it's less than one-third of mine. That's what happens when Bold Adventurers go up against Combined Fleet Tactics. Of course, it helps a LOT to have Eyes of the Universe, he he.
Reply #40 from Stardock Forums Top
I have figured out how to always have better population then the AI, early game.

Try one game with a very nice PQ earth. (Control N it, people). When you start playing, set your tax rate to 0. Your pop will stay WAY ahead of the computers, until such time that you have to crank up the taxes and crank down that 100% spending... ;)

So, by repeating our experiment (incrementing our tax rate by 1 each time) with very low tax rate, we can find the level the computer is using for his early game tax rate.
Reply #41 from Stardock Forums Top
Didn't someone say early on that the high levels would get slightly more tax revenues.? Likewise, low lvls would get less revenue. That could be you problem.
:)
Reply #42 from Stardock Forums Top
Star Pilot --

You could probably just move the tax slider until the Average Morale rating is 100, right?

Pushing for Medical Theory / Basic Environmental Control / Aphrodisiacs would also be reasonable early if you really want pop growth.
Reply #43 from Stardock Forums Top
Twirlip, every bit your taxes is up, is a retardant to people that are willing to admit they are your citizens. Try a (saved) game at zero, hit the turn button a bit, and then reload and try it at the 100% threshold. You'll see a real difference in growth rate. ;)
Reply #44 from Stardock Forums Top
Speaking of AI advantages/disadvantages...

Can someone please confirm of deny that the AIs can allocate spending (social, military, tech) per *planet* (and aren't limited to one set of empire wide spending sliders). I thought I read this in one of the "how the AI micromanages better than humans" threads back near the beginning (now lost off the bottom).

Sorry to ask again, but to my knowledge my previous question went unanswered.

Thanks!


~SDC~
Reply #45 from Stardock Forums Top
You can't micromanage planets quite like that. You can't and the computer can't as well. The only slider you can micromanage for any planet is propeganda