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A Critic's Mind Changed

A Critic's Mind Changed

built on solid evidence

As a student of the bible, I love to hear about the discoveries that have over the years only given much credence to this book. There have been many stories of brilliant minds that have attempted to disprove the scriptures only to succumb to the realization that the bible is truly a magnificant piece of literature unlike any other.

William Albright, known for his reputation as one of the great archaeologists, said: "There can be no doubt that archaeology has confirmed the substantial historicity of Old Testament tradition."

He also said: "The exessive skepticism shown toward the Bible by important historical schools of the 18th & 19th centuires, certain phases of which still appear periodically, has been progressively discredited. Discovery after discovery has established the accuracy of innumerable details, and has brought increased recognititon to the value of the Bible as a source of history."

Millar Burrows of Yale observes: "Archaeology has in many cases refuted the views of modern critics. it has shown in a number of instances that these views rest on false assumptions and unreal, artifical schemes of historical development."

He also exposes the cause of much unbelief: "The excessive skepticism of many liberal theologians stems not from a careful evaluation of the available data, but from an enormous predisposition against the supernatural."

This is still true today. How many of us are coming to the table with our predisposed beliefs based on what we've just picked up along the way? I hear alot of repititon from those that have no idea where they've heard such and such. It's like gossip. They are picking up and passing on what they have had whispered in their ears. I did this myself for a while until I realized I really had nothing to back myself up on other than what I heard from another.

He adds: "On the whole, archaelogical work has unquestionably strengthened confidence in the reliability of the scriptural record. More than one archaeologist has found his respect for the Bible increased by the experience of excavation in Palestine". :

Sir William Ramsay is regarded as one of the greatest archaeologists ever to have lived. He was a student in the German historical school of the mid 19th century. He believed the Book of Acts was a product of the mid 2nd century AD. He was very convinced of this belief. In his research to make a topographical study of Asia Minor he was compelled to consider the writings of Luke, the physician. As a result he was forced to do a complete reversal of his beliefs due to the overwhelming evidence uncovered in his research. He said this about his change of mind:

"I may fairly claim to have entered on this investigation without prejudice in favor of the conclusion which I shall now seek to justify to the reader. On the contrary, I began with a mind unfavorable to it, for the ingenuity and apparent completness of the Tubingen theory had at one time quite convinced me. it did not then lie in my line of life to investigate the subject minutely; but more recenly I found myself brought into contact with the Book of Acts as an authority for the topgraphy , antiquities and socieity of Asia Minor. It was gradually borne upon me that in various details the narrative showed marvelous truth. In fact, beginning with a fixed idea that the work was essentially a 2nd century composition and never relying on its evidence as trustworthy for first century conditions, I gradually came to find it a useful ally in some obscure and difficult investigations."

Ramsay concluded after 30 years of study that "Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy......."this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." Ramsay also says: "Luke's history is unsurpassed in respect of its trustworthiness."

To even consider this book coming from an all powerful God it MUST meet certain requirements. It has to be transmitted to us accurately from the time it was originally written so we have exactly what God wanted us to have. Next it must be correct when it deal with dates, events and places. A book that has these things mixed up has no right to claim it comes from an infallible God.

If you test the NT documents with the same standard of tests applied to any of the Greek classics, the evidence overwhelmingly favors the NT. If someone states that we have a reliable text of classics, then that same person would be forced to admit that the NT is also just as reliable.

Actually many don't realize that the original NT copies were in better textual shape than the 37 plays of Shakespeare written in the 17th century, after the invention of printing. In every one of his plays there are gaps in the printed text where we have no idea what originally was said. Textual scholars were forced to make good guesses to fill in the blanks. With the abundance of existing manuscripts of the NT we know nothing has been lost through the transmission of the text.

Those who contend that the Bible is unreliable historically are not historians or archeologists. While I can't prove the bible is inspired or written by the very hand of God, (although I believe it to be true,) I do believe the evidence supports the claim the Bible certainly is the very word of God.



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49,466 views 187 replies
Reply #126 Top
Zoo:

Worship is more than just singing. Bringing glory to God doesn't just have to do with singing. Singing is a great way to corporately worship Him, though, which is why it is done.

A tyrant did not create you, the world, or anything else. God did. He is deserving of our worship, which is the difference.

As for the purpose being more complex than just His glory, yeah, it can be. But that's the main thing, the thing that brings everything else together.

As for heaven and hell, one has God in it, the other does not. God gives you the opportunity, if you love Him, to go to heaven and be with Him. If you do not love Him, why would you want to be with Him? You would probably be more comfortable in Hell than with God in heaven anyway.

Satan and his demons are doing works on this Earth. God and His angels are, too. But it's only going to get worse and worse until Jesus comes back.

As for God needing our attention, please. God doesn't need our attention - he just wants it, so that you will know Him better.

Living your life solely and only to worship makes it an empty life. Sure, you can worship here and there...but every second of the day is absolutely impossible and will take the sheer pleasure out of everything else you could experience.
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Everything else you could experience will pale in comparison to the worship of God for all eternity. That's where pleasure is. The stuff here is fed to you by Satan in order to make you content with something less than what you are capable of feeling.
Reply #127 Top
Lula posts:
And don't forget, you are a true believer in ET and it takes greater faith to believe in it than it does in Biblical Creation.
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SC posts:
I disagree. I think that the faith to believe either is equal. Why in the world do you think that it takes more to believe the one that has basis in science?
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SC, at least we agree that it takes faith to believe in Evolution Theory...but aren't you contradicting yourself here?

I mean, if ET (amoeba to man; progressive development of one kind into a completely different kind with new DNA) has a basis in science then, it seems to me that ET wouldn't be theory and not need faith to believe, right?

To answer your question....it's very simple really. It's because we have God's revealed Revelation, both written, (Scripture) and oral(Tradition) that it's easier to have faith in Biblical Creation. God is the Author of Creation, of life and of nature as related to matter, and also the Author of Revelation in which He describes (through human writers) our beginnings and His plan of salvation.

I've been studying ET for years ever since my children were being spoon fed ET as fact. I understand the hold that ET has on people.

Above you say that ET has basis in science. But in reality, it doesn't. ET is speculative and one after another myth has been debunked. There is no actual scientific evidence to account for the origin of species. Rather, the discoveries made by sciences in the study of evloutionary processes enforce the belief of Design in nature.









Reply #128 Top
SomewhereinND posts:
Lulapilgrim, again with the biochemistry argument?
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Did you visit the following site?
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe/publish.html
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First, I appreciate your patience with me regarding your repeated requests for me to check out these sites.

Yes, I just checked it out. It mixes truth with error. I acknowledge and believe that evolution (small "e") that is, change within kind or species through genetic variation, mutation, etc. is, has been and will continue to occur.

But, as you know, evolution within kind is not what I've been referring to here in this thread. It's Macro-Evolution, Amoeba to man---that over time, one species has changed into a completely different one. Macro-Evolution is a lie that's been being successfully bandied about as truth and fact.

Now, today, we know different. Scientific research has gained many new insights as a result of an immense amount of new discoveries in many disciplines including biochemistry, molecular biology, genetics, geology and astronomy. It is now known with a high degree of certainity, that the Creator's design of DNA will not allow Macro-Evolution to occur. Irreducible complexity is one of concepts that has helped us understand why one species can't evolve into a whole new and different one.

The more we know about molecules, DNA, cells, etc. through real science, the less plausible ET becomes. ET believers want us to believe that DNA came into existence by means of nothing more than a series of random accidents starting with a prehistoric puddle of slime! ET scientists want us to believe this, yet none of it has been observed or empirically tested in labs. And they tell us they want to keep faith out of classrooms! Go figure.



Reply #129 Top
Worship is more than just singing.
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I wasn't talking about actual singing...just using the term "singing praises" as constantly spewing compliments.

A tyrant did not create you, the world, or anything else. God did.
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A tyrant is: An absolute ruler who governs without restrictions. How is that different from what we're led to believe about God? Does he not lay down all the rules?

As for God needing our attention, please. God doesn't need our attention - he just wants it, so that you will know Him better.
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But God and his works aren't capable of being known...what's the point?

Everything else you could experience will pale in comparison to the worship of God for all eternity.
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So...your idea of a perfect afterlife is standing around saying, "Gee, God you're so awesome." forever and ever and ever and ever? Wouldn't that get...you know, boring after the first few infinity years?

~Zoo



Reply #130 Top
Maybe. I'll let you know after the first infinity years pass.
Reply #131 Top
Maybe. I'll let you know after the first infinity years pass.
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Hey, don't get ahead of yourself. You're not dead yet. :P

~Zoo
Reply #132 Top
How is that different from what we're led to believe about God? Does he not lay down all the rules?
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Yes, Zoo, He does..As the Creator, he gets to lay down the rules of engagement in life. They are for our own good and happiness, both here on earth and ultimately in eternal life. We, being the created ones, must obey or reap the consequences.

That's why some people prefer to believe in Godless ET.. with it they as descended from brute animals can act like animals and get to make our own decisions about right and wrong, good and evil...


Reply #133 Top
Always? that is a pretty strong statement. What exacty was the purpose for creating the devil?
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He didn't. THe devil was a beautiful cherub. He was a quite powerful and beautiful angel. He was created with free will and he exercised it taking one third of the angels with him. But even so, God allowed it and it is all part of his plan.

Even god had to take a rest on the seventh day,
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hahahahah no! God didn't rest because he was tired. God rested because he was FINISHED. Scripture says that he created the earth with his fingers. But when it came time to sacrifice his son, he had to bare his arm like you would when you have a hard task ahead of you. It was more work to die for our sins than it was to create the whole universe. Think about the love involved in that one.

That's no different than a tyrant. "Love me or suffer for eternity!
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It's not really funny, but most people when they think of God think of him with a stern face wielding a big heavy club ready to strike them down. That is so not even close to the truth.

Do you remember Christ weeping? He wept when he had to bring Lazarus back. He wept over Jerusalem because he knew they were going away from Him. He knew they were missing all the blessings he had in store for them, if they would only take and believe what he was offering them.

Do you remember Christ on the cross crying out Abba Father? Do you know what that means? Later Paul said this:

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.” Galatians 4:6

Abba Father is like saying "Daddy." Can you picture a God like that? When Jesus taught us to pray “Our Father” in Matthew He used the same Greek word “Pater” — “Abba Father.” American children say daddy, but in the Middle East they say, “Abba - Abba.” Jesus says that we can call the great God of the universe, “Daddy.” I’m so glad that our Heavenly Father never gets too busy running this universe and commanding the angels that He forgets us. He wants to be with you like there is no one else on earth and nothing else for Him to do. That's the God I worship Zoo.

I don't buy into the entire institution that is/are the Christian Church(es). I do have some belief in a God...but I have so many conflicts with the so-called "wisdom" that the Bible hands down.
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A statement and question for ya. Even the demons believe in God. Many have a superficial belief in the creator God but not one they are willing to go out on a limb for. Have you ever sat down and read the bible? I mean really give it some honest time and thought?




Reply #134 Top
KFC, I guess if your prupose in starting this thread was to convert me,
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Nope. You really think my purpose was to convert you? First off it's not my job to convert anyone. Second of all if you notice the date of this article, it was all but dead when someone resurrected it. Hmmmmmmm maybe it was God...... ;) 

Including the complete debunking of Behe,
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I don't follow Behe at all. He's a theoevolutionist and I don't agree with him so don't let that dissuade you.

There were several other websites, that didn't have anything to do with what you were talking about
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would you like to check out a Christian Science website? You can check this one out for starters. WWW Link

Reply #135 Top
That's why some people prefer to believe in Godless ET.. with it they as descended from brute animals can act like animals and get to make our own decisions about right and wrong, good and evil...
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Really? That's the whole issue? *psh* There's nothing Godless about evolution nor is there anything Godful in it. Science is science...it exists without religious connotations in either direction. We are human, we are animals...that is our classification and that is our inherent behavior. However, as humans we take our behavior a bit higher into complex thinking and thus we are able (for the most part) to overcome base animalistic urges. Whether that counts as divinity for you is purely your own decision...but in essense we are animals...we are made of the same material, we eat the same things, we die the same way...we are animals, but we are not beasts.

Abba Father is like saying "Daddy." Can you picture a God like that? When Jesus taught us to pray “Our Father” in Matthew He used the same Greek word “Pater” — “Abba Father.” American children say daddy, but in the Middle East they say, “Abba - Abba.” Jesus says that we can call the great God of the universe, “Daddy.” I’m so glad that our Heavenly Father never gets too busy running this universe and commanding the angels that He forgets us. He wants to be with you like there is no one else on earth and nothing else for Him to do. That's the God I worship Zoo.
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'Tis a God I wouldn't mind worshipping...were I shown this to be ultimately true. I've never felt it nor have I seen it. Maybe someday I'll reevaluate my views if something happens to move me. As of yet, I'm still waiting to see that Father(or more appropriately for a creator, mother) figure.

A statement and question for ya. Even the demons believe in God. Many have a superficial belief in the creator God but not one they are willing to go out on a limb for. Have you ever sat down and read the bible? I mean really give it some honest time and thought?
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I've never seen a demon. I won't go out on a limb for something I'm not entirely comfortable with. I've read bits and pieces of the Bible...I don't know all the stories, but I've picked up most of the lessons and it's those universal lessons that I follow. Treating people well with decency and kindness when it's due. That's all I really need from that particular book. I wish I could have some spiritual awakening to feel that confidence...but I haven't and I won't commit to anything that's not been proven to me. I'll live by the basic moral code of the Bible because I feel it's a good way to live...other than that I won't submit to a dogma that seems flakey to me at best.

~Zoo
Reply #136 Top
By the way...Maso has a pretty decent article going on about stuff like this of which he and I are in agreement. Check it out: WWW Link

~Zoo
Reply #137 Top
Thanks Zoo. I did read it. Maso and I don't see eye to eye. In fact, I get the feeling I'm one of those "bad" Christians he's writing about. He usually doesn't respond well to anything I say, so I keep away.

Maso and I actually have something in common, although he doesn't know it. I too am an x-Catholic with some of the same feelings he has but after leaving we both went in different directions.

I am a bible believing Christian. I've been in many many different groups out there that had their own set of books, all with empty words. Sounded nice but in the end didn't fill the void that the Holy Scriptures do. They point to Christ who is the only one who can save us from this life of sin. In fact the bible, I believe, after reading all kinds of these books over the years is the only book I find alive. In fact it claims to be powerful and living, sharper than a two edged sword. I believe that to be true seeing it personally. One side cuts to bless the other side cuts to bleed.

Yes, there are "bad" Christians out there....but why measure Christianity to them and not to Jesus who is the beginning of the church? Surely you know personally some good Christians who are living their faith according as Jesus wishes them to?

I think I challanged you once before Zoo to read the book of John (21 chapaters) and pray about it. See for yourself, God at work. What do you have to lose?

Reply #138 Top
'Tis a God I wouldn't mind worshipping...were I shown this to be ultimately true. I've never felt it nor have I seen it. Maybe someday I'll reevaluate my views if something happens to move me. As of yet, I'm still waiting to see that Father(or more appropriately for a creator, mother) figure.
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There's a saying I like to say to others...."watch and pray." In other words just don't sit there and wait for the lightening to hit. The farmer prays for corn with a hoe in his hand.

In the OT Nehemiah was building the walls to rebuild Jerusalem and he and the Nation Israel were getting death threats. The people thought they should stop but Nehemiah said to "watch and pray." So with armed guards nearby and working with swords on their sides, they continued to build praying the whole time. God blessed their work and they were unharmed and the walls of Jerusalem were built.



Reply #139 Top
We are human, we are animals...that is our classification and that is our inherent behavior.
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As I said before I understand the hold that believing in ET has on people. It teaches (as fact) that since humans are descended from brute animals then, therefore they inherently act like animals.
They seem to forget that animals act on pure instinct and humans have free will, an intellectual capacity and a conscience to understand good from evil. Man has a spiritual nature and a material nature.

As apart from animals, how do the ET scientists explain where these come from?


That's the point, Zoo. We AREN'T animals. We are set apart and above and distinct from animals. We have dominion over all animals. The only commonality that I can see is that we are all part of nature and share living on earth.


God created man in order that man may participate in His happiness. Man is a hybrid being--a spiritual soul and a material body.
That is what sets us apart from animals.



Reply #140 Top
There's a saying I like to say to others...."watch and pray." In other words just don't sit there and wait for the lightening to hit. The farmer prays for corn with a hoe in his hand.
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Isn't that another way of saying "God helps those that help themselves?" Although it's kind of redundant. If you work towards a goal, then most likely it will be accomplished...prayer usually doesn't factor into it. Like say, when I write a paper for a class. I've never prayed for it to be done...and I don't pray when I'm doing it. I just do it. Therefore it's possible to accomplish these things without praying.

Now if praying allows one to have more confidence to do the things they need to do...well, more power to them. I'm not sure if it's really a deciding factor, though.

It teaches (as fact) that since humans are descended from brute animals then, therefore they inherently act like animals.
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That is true in the basest sense. Take the "wild man" stories for instance. There are several documented cases of people living as if they were animals and did quite well survival wise. Yes, we are animals in every meaning of the word.


Now, for our morals and such? That's a philosophical and religious question. Philosophy and religion in themselves are unique to us...so yeah, people are quite different, but we are indeed animals. That's no excuse for bestial behavior...in fact we have the capacity to behave worse than animals. Murder, grudges, spite, deception all for personal and petty gain. In some ways we are "above" animals and other ways we are "below" depending on your moral compass. Whether there's a spark of divinity in that is a matter that's best decided by the individual...I might even be tempted to say that God blessed us with a higher mental capacity. Do I think he created us out of nothing? No.

For me, evolution is the how, not the why we exist.

~Zoo
Reply #141 Top
Isn't that another way of saying "God helps those that help themselves?" Although it's kind of redundant. If you work towards a goal, then most likely it will be accomplished...prayer usually doesn't factor into it. Like say, when I write a paper for a class. I've never prayed for it to be done...and I don't pray when I'm doing it. I just do it. Therefore it's possible to accomplish these things without praying.
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Sometimes but praying for rain is not going to happen with a hoe. When Nehemiah prayed for protection it wasn't going to happen without God's help.

It would be the same as praying for an A. No matter how well you do it's really up to the teacher to give you the A. So you pray for God to move in that teacher's heart to give you an A. But it's useless unless you turn in a paper to begin with.

Reply #142 Top
No matter how well you do it's really up to the teacher to give you the A.
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If they're a $*%&# then yeah. Thankfully most of my teachers grade based on what I give them...not their own personal prejudices.

~Zoo
Reply #143 Top
It teaches (as fact) that since humans are descended from brute animals then, therefore they inherently act like animals.
They seem to forget that animals act on pure instinct and humans have free will....
That's the point, Zoo. We AREN'T animals....
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YES WE ARE ANIMALS, out the majority of us under the slightest amount of stress, and if you have wepon in your hand, most likely someone is going to die!!!

All reason goes out the door, we act on pure instinct, do you need examples of this?

Reply #144 Top
While Intellegent Design is an all incompassing, explains evrything theory...Theory of Evolution is not, why do creationists insist on saying the the theory of evolution needs to cover everything?

It would be irresponsible from a scientific point of view to come up with the Mother Of All Theories...When Darwin came up with the theory of evolution, I don't believe the big bang theory existed.
Reply #145 Top
The creationists answer of last resort is 'take a look around'.

YES, PLEASE DO, put it under a microscope, examine it, find out how it works, PLEASE.....
Reply #146 Top
YES WE ARE ANIMALS, out the majority of us under the slightest amount of stress, and if you have wepon in your hand, most likely someone is going to die!!!
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Sadly, I know what you're saying....just turn on the news and listen...the culture of death and violence is all around us nowadays...but it's not because we are animals...this is only evil use man makes of his freedom.

Let's think it through this way...


Man has free will to direct his own life...animals operate on instinct. By that I mean animals are born, grow and die in conformity with laws which they unresistingly obey all according to instinct.

Man on the other hand, comes to do each of the acts he performs by an exercise of free will.

The fundamental rule of moral teaching is do good and avoid evil. In this regard man has a duty to progress...animals don't.

We must try to be the masters of all our actions, but this is difficult becasue we are governed by habits, some of which are good and others are bad. The essential need of our moral life is to develop our good qualities and fight against our faults. Animals can't do this either.

What we are doing here is essentially training the freedom of will...and that can go either way and consequently have an effect upon our lives.

We can do good and become better only if we cultivate virtue. If we choose not to, then our evil inclinations, our faults, our vices will grow greater and we shall be less good.

Doing good and avoiding evil means struggling to do better. Those people whom you cite in your example fit this in the sense that they have failed in the struggle to do better by choosing to do evil.

How do we break it down? We can't be satisfied to call ourselves "animals", for the difference between man and animals is that man directs his own life..for the good which aims at perfection or for evil. It's a free choice.












Reply #147 Top
Man has free will to direct his own life...animals operate on instinct.

NO he does not!! That is my point. A little stress, and reason thought logic go out the door. We revert to instinct, then later say the devil did it.

Another example that does not involve 'evil' would be...a little pressure and we can't even carry on a simple conversation.
Reply #148 Top
Another example that does not involve 'evil' would be...a little pressure and we can't even carry on a simple conversation.
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well wouldn't that depend on what you're made of? Have you ever heard of the saying you can't know what a teabag is made of until it gets seeped in hot water?

It's the same with us. Our actions are like fruits on a tree. A good tree yeilds good fruit. A bad tree yeilds bad fruit. Again, it all goes back to scripture. It's all in the book.

Thanks for helping me make this point!!

Reply #149 Top
Lula posts:
Man has free will to direct his own life...animals operate on instinct.
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NO he does not!! That is my point. A little stress, and reason thought logic go out the door. We revert to instinct, then later say the devil did it.
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Oh, c'mon, SomewhereinND! This is simple biology 101. Instinct is an inborn behavior that is built into an animal's nervous system and cannot be changed.

When we humans get riled over something, we don't revert to instinct..we lose our self-control.



Reply #150 Top
Another example that does not involve 'evil' would be...a little pressure and we can't even carry on a simple conversation.
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What I've noticed more often than not in this scenario is that a little pressure and people can't carry on a civil conversation!