KFC Kickin For Christ KFC Kickin For Christ

A Critic's Mind Changed

A Critic's Mind Changed

built on solid evidence

As a student of the bible, I love to hear about the discoveries that have over the years only given much credence to this book. There have been many stories of brilliant minds that have attempted to disprove the scriptures only to succumb to the realization that the bible is truly a magnificant piece of literature unlike any other.

William Albright, known for his reputation as one of the great archaeologists, said: "There can be no doubt that archaeology has confirmed the substantial historicity of Old Testament tradition."

He also said: "The exessive skepticism shown toward the Bible by important historical schools of the 18th & 19th centuires, certain phases of which still appear periodically, has been progressively discredited. Discovery after discovery has established the accuracy of innumerable details, and has brought increased recognititon to the value of the Bible as a source of history."

Millar Burrows of Yale observes: "Archaeology has in many cases refuted the views of modern critics. it has shown in a number of instances that these views rest on false assumptions and unreal, artifical schemes of historical development."

He also exposes the cause of much unbelief: "The excessive skepticism of many liberal theologians stems not from a careful evaluation of the available data, but from an enormous predisposition against the supernatural."

This is still true today. How many of us are coming to the table with our predisposed beliefs based on what we've just picked up along the way? I hear alot of repititon from those that have no idea where they've heard such and such. It's like gossip. They are picking up and passing on what they have had whispered in their ears. I did this myself for a while until I realized I really had nothing to back myself up on other than what I heard from another.

He adds: "On the whole, archaelogical work has unquestionably strengthened confidence in the reliability of the scriptural record. More than one archaeologist has found his respect for the Bible increased by the experience of excavation in Palestine". :

Sir William Ramsay is regarded as one of the greatest archaeologists ever to have lived. He was a student in the German historical school of the mid 19th century. He believed the Book of Acts was a product of the mid 2nd century AD. He was very convinced of this belief. In his research to make a topographical study of Asia Minor he was compelled to consider the writings of Luke, the physician. As a result he was forced to do a complete reversal of his beliefs due to the overwhelming evidence uncovered in his research. He said this about his change of mind:

"I may fairly claim to have entered on this investigation without prejudice in favor of the conclusion which I shall now seek to justify to the reader. On the contrary, I began with a mind unfavorable to it, for the ingenuity and apparent completness of the Tubingen theory had at one time quite convinced me. it did not then lie in my line of life to investigate the subject minutely; but more recenly I found myself brought into contact with the Book of Acts as an authority for the topgraphy , antiquities and socieity of Asia Minor. It was gradually borne upon me that in various details the narrative showed marvelous truth. In fact, beginning with a fixed idea that the work was essentially a 2nd century composition and never relying on its evidence as trustworthy for first century conditions, I gradually came to find it a useful ally in some obscure and difficult investigations."

Ramsay concluded after 30 years of study that "Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy......."this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." Ramsay also says: "Luke's history is unsurpassed in respect of its trustworthiness."

To even consider this book coming from an all powerful God it MUST meet certain requirements. It has to be transmitted to us accurately from the time it was originally written so we have exactly what God wanted us to have. Next it must be correct when it deal with dates, events and places. A book that has these things mixed up has no right to claim it comes from an infallible God.

If you test the NT documents with the same standard of tests applied to any of the Greek classics, the evidence overwhelmingly favors the NT. If someone states that we have a reliable text of classics, then that same person would be forced to admit that the NT is also just as reliable.

Actually many don't realize that the original NT copies were in better textual shape than the 37 plays of Shakespeare written in the 17th century, after the invention of printing. In every one of his plays there are gaps in the printed text where we have no idea what originally was said. Textual scholars were forced to make good guesses to fill in the blanks. With the abundance of existing manuscripts of the NT we know nothing has been lost through the transmission of the text.

Those who contend that the Bible is unreliable historically are not historians or archeologists. While I can't prove the bible is inspired or written by the very hand of God, (although I believe it to be true,) I do believe the evidence supports the claim the Bible certainly is the very word of God.



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49,465 views 187 replies
Reply #26 Top

Thanks AD for the info. I knew it was Greek (way out) but didn't know about Shemo't. From what I understood the title of the book is taken from the first verse..."these are the names of." Is that one word in Hebrew (Shemo't)?
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You are correct its from the first verse not first word as I suggested (I was thinking in the case of Genesis/Beresheet). Shem'ot is the plural form of Shem meaning name. Many Jews refer to YHVH as HaShem meaning 'the name'.

First 4 words of Exodus 1:1 ואלה שמות בני ישראל
Here's my best transliteration (as I'm not a Hebrew Scholar) reading right to left. Vel'eh Sh'mot B'ney Yis'rael.

Vel'eh - These are or those are
Sh'mot - Names
B'ney - sons of

Hope that helps.
Reply #27 Top
Before this discussion turned into a pissing contest, KFC was originally arguing that the bible is true because history says so

Above is very very over simplified, but much less wordy and to the point. KFC let me know if I am wrong. Please note I am not trying to offend anyone, sorry if I did. Just trying to get the intent across.

My argument against that was the history is very unstable, so basing something on history (and not evidence) is a very slippery slope.

I think the bible is based on history, but so are a lot of thingz, doesn't mean they are true (St Clause, dragons, vampires, list goes on and on...)

Like I said, I think history is very unstable, in fact you might even be able to convince me that religion is more stable then history, but that would be a hard argument to make.
Reply #28 Top
vampires
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there was a vampire from Transylvania. she was the ambassador to France i think. she killed young women and drink and bathed in their blood thinking it would keep her young.
Reply #29 Top
St Clause
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was based on two people. a toy maker who really did go down a chimney to deliver a toy on Christmas. and a bishop last name of clause.
Reply #30 Top
Proves that Based on history and History are not the same.

but besides that, I seriously doubt your stories, your two accounts of history could be true, but are more likely to be from the 'National Enquirer' of the day. And we all know that if it is writen in the National Eqnuirer, it must be true.
Reply #31 Top
Hope that helps.
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Thanks AD. I'm not anything near a HEbrew Scholar either. You're doing quite well. I rely heavily on my lexicons, dictionaries and any contact I can think of if I need to go deep. Greek is much easier for me than Hebrew. Someday I'd love to take a "Hebrew for Dummies" class.

Before this discussion turned into a pissing contest,
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Forgive my ignorance but what's that supposed to mean?

My argument against that was the history is very unstable, so basing something on history (and not evidence) is a very slippery slope.
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well it depends on what kind of history you're talking about. Heresay? Yes, I'd agree with you. Historical heresy is unstable. But validated history is stable history. The fact that Washington lived during the Revolutionary War was documented history. The fact that he was President is also history. So how can that be unstable? Not all history is unstable. Most history is pretty well documented and therefore pretty stable.

When it comes to the bible, it's the same. It's written down for all to see and mock if they wish. When put side by side with historical evidence outside of the bible it matches up quite nicely. That's what I'm talking about.



Reply #32 Top
Most of ancient history is heresy, and what was written down was from the point of view of the author, for instance, ask peoples views on Bill Clinton, and you get two extremes, which one is correct? Probably neither.

As far as the bible matching history...since most of the world doesnt follow the christian version of god, you might find one or two people who don't agree with you.

And Again, your saying that based on history, and history are the same,
Reply #33 Top
As far as the bible matching history...since most of the world doesnt follow the christian version of god, you might find one or two people who don't agree with you.
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you've got history mixed up with opinion. History is History. Opinion is Opinion. There is plenty of secular history that matches up quite nicely with scripture. For instance the 4 Kingdoms. We read and see where the Babylonian Empire was the first great world power followed by the Medes and Persians followed by Greece and then Rome. Well it's all right there in scripture, sometimes even predicted before it even happened as the case of Daniel prophesying in Daniel 2.

JC Ryle in the 1800's knew from reading scripture that somehow Israel would go into their own land. He said this contrary to world opinion that had long written off the Jews. The Jews were wandering the world with no country of their own for almost 2,000 years and Ryle was laughed at when he suggested such a thing as the Jews having their own homeland. There was no movement, no support and not even a thought this would be true. But scripture predicted it would happen and in 1948 history caught up with prophecy and it's now much recorded history. Not opinion.

And while I agree two people witnessing an accident or any event wouldn't be completely in agreement, it's not that way with the 40 authors who penned the Old and New Testaments. That's because there is definitely a supernatural element to it. As a Christian I believe that is because we believe there is only one author with 40 men being used as the instrument of God much the same way you and I use a pen (in many diff colors) as instuments when we write.

That's the only way it can make sense. Otherwise how in the world would we be able to get all these men to agree like they did over a span of many years forget about agreeing about one incident?


for instance, ask peoples views on Bill Clinton, and you get two extremes, which one is correct? Probably neither.
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Again you're asking for viewpoint. That's not history. That's opinion. History is Clinton committing adultery. Did it happen or not? That's history.

Opinion is, he was/wasn't that bad as a president. There is a definite line drawn between opinion and history.
Reply #34 Top
I can also give you unlimited amount of finds in all areas of the spectrum which supported scripture in later discoveries. Some even thought to be a hoax until later discoveries proved scripture...yet again....to be accurate.
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can you provide any single find supporting the notion all animal species that ever existed came into being at the same time and were once represented on earth simultaneously?


If and when the ark is found, then that would just be another piece that would be explained away like everything else is.
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even if an intact ark were discovered tomorrow, its existence would hardly be evidence of a global flood, much less one in which all mankind but noah's family was wiped out.

found myself brought into contact with the Book of Acts as an authority for the topgraphy , antiquities and socieity of Asia Minor. It was gradually borne upon me that in various details the narrative showed marvelous truth.
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1000 years from now, archeologists researching ancient baltimore will be saying the same thing upon the discovery of screenplays written by the two guys who write 'the wire'. none of those details cited prove or disprove luke's accounts of jesus' divinity any more than actually seeing for yourself an actual 747 being saved from crashing into what we all recognize as a large national airport establishes the existence of superman.
Reply #35 Top
can you provide any single find supporting the notion all animal species that ever existed came into being at the same time and were once represented on earth simultaneously?
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I can't but I thought that the scientists were believing this to be true from a Scientific POV.

even if an intact ark were discovered tomorrow, its existence would hardly be evidence of a global flood, much less one in which all mankind but noah's family was wiped out.
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and this proves my point exactly. It doesn't really matter does it?

1000 years from now, archeologists researching ancient baltimore will be saying the same thing upon the discovery of screenplays written by the two guys who write 'the wire'. none of those details cited prove or disprove luke's accounts of jesus' divinity any more than actually seeing for yourself an actual 747 being saved from crashing into what we all recognize as a large national airport establishes the existence of superman.
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and are we doing that now with other works of antiquity? Homer? Plato? Aristotle? Virgil? Horace?

It's funny isn't it that these writers/philosophers I cited are NEVER questioned even tho they are older and have less manuscriptual evidence than the scriptures have. We have better textual evidence for scripture than any other work of antiquity yet the bible is more attacked than any other. Go figure.



Reply #36 Top
KFC, are you asking us if Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Virgil, Horce, got things wrong?
Well of course they did. And if they were at all reasonable people, and knew what we know now, they themselves would admit to being wrong. You say they have never been questioned? I would guess that almost all of their theories have been proven wrong, or drasticaly modified.

Did some of them make up fictional stories, knowing that they were completely made up (sometimes refered to as fiction)?
Well of course they did.

Reply #37 Top
KFC, you say History is History, and Opinion is Opinion.

History books are writen by writers with opinions.

That writer is sharing his/her opinion of an event, then it gets modified by other writers opinions when they write their History Book.

Just as history changes, so do religions, I would agree that parts of religion are based on historical events. Most of the modern versions of religion are less then 1000 years old. Even the catholic church is less then 1500, which is the bases of all christian religions. In the last 250 years how many religions have been invented in the united states alone? How many times has history been modified?

Again, my point is that Religion & History are both very unstable.
Reply #38 Top
can you provide any single find supporting the notion all animal species that ever existed came into being at the same time and were once represented on earth simultaneously?


I can't but I thought that the scientists were believing this to be true from a Scientific POV.
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which reputable, degreed scientists have proposed or concurred with anything of the sort within the last 100 years?

Reply #39 Top
KFC, Science supports that god created animals in one instance????

Actually recently it is the other way around, some religious leaders now saying that god crearted evolution, and that evolution is responsible for life. ince god doesn't exist, that is horse pucky.

Here is one guy who is preaching it, I guess he wrote a popular book about it recently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Dowd

Maybe god created the big bang
Maybe god created light, gravity, time, etc...
Maybe god created great big clouds of intersteller dust that formed into solar systems.
Maybe god created life thru evolution.

Maybe god is an imaginary friend of us humans.

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As a side note, here are 2 good suggestion for arguing for religion.
Dont make things up, you will eventually be called on them (and mocked)

Dont always have an answer, its ok to say 'I dont know', otherwise it leads to breaking above rule.
Reply #40 Top
Maybe god created the big bang
Maybe god created light, gravity, time, etc...
Maybe god created great big clouds of intersteller dust that formed into solar systems.
Maybe god created life thru evolution.
End of quote




he may have done all of that.


but what he did do was create the laws of physics that all of those things run by
Reply #42 Top
I Thought that was covered when I said light, gravity, time, etc...
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you did but you used the word maybe and i didn't.
Reply #43 Top
HAPPY NEW YEAR, KFC AND ALL,

Although we in my house are still enjoying a wonderful array of Christmas goodies as candy canes, fudge, peanut brittle, zucchini bread and the like, the Christmas season after the celebration of the feast of the Epiphany is now turned into the new year and the last of the decorations are now all repacked and in storage.

Your article KFC is very interesting with the first paragraph and the last topping it off!

I note it was written last April, the discussion was picked up in November and renewed on January 1, 2008. The Holy Bible and history is a great topic to begin a New Year.

I'll be back with a comment or two on translations, Columbus, 66 Books, and Bryan Harstad's assertion that
Even the catholic church is less then 1500,
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Should be fun!






Reply #44 Top
What exactly are you referring to? Exodus is the title of the Book "Exodus" and means "departure" I don't think "Exodus" is used in scripture otherwise.

The English title comes from the title in the Septuagint. The Exodus (way out) is the principal theme of the book.
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The Torah refers to Exodus as "Sh'mot" from its opening phrase, " Ve-eleh shmot" ("And these are the names..."). I think the poster has confused the title of the book with a translation issue. Exod 13:18 translates literally as 'sea of reeds'.

Be well.
Reply #45 Top
If several of us witness a traffic light turning from green to red and write down what we saw, our account would be historically accurate. But if we each added our own understanding of the meaning, purpose, and message of the light turning red, as in say, that the light turning red was a sign of God's anger toward us, or that God didn't like green, this would not necessarily be accurate, regardless of the veracity of each witness.

KFC argues that because there was a light and it turned red, the rest must be true, as well.

Be well.
Reply #46 Top
KFC WRITES:
While I can't prove the bible is inspired or written by the very hand of God, (although I believe it to be true,) I do believe the evidence supports the claim the Bible certainly is the very word of God.
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This is what I believe as well. In the Holy Bible, God Himself speaks to us as a loving Father to His children. When we read it, God who is not limited by time or space speaks to us just as He did to Moses, the prophets, and the New Testament writers. Sacred Scripture isn't meant to confirm actual history (although it does in some cases) as much as it's written as salvation history. Through reading the Bible, God can give us insights and touch us in a way that will help us in our unique experiences through this journey called life.

The only way this can be is it's not like any other book. It has a supernatural component to it. As a Christian who has studied this book for many years I have to believe it's written by God himself using these men as human instuments much like we use a pen as an instrument to write down our own thoughts.
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Right. When we read it, it's like dialing God on the phone. He says Hello. His words invite a response from us...in prayer and through our life's choices...There is no other kinds of book out there that allows this kind of communication with God...from this I would say the Word of God is living and effective.


KFC WRITES:
With the abundance of existing manuscripts of the NT we know nothing has been lost through the transmission of the text.
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Danielost posts:
translation is a different matter.


KFC POSTS: Yes, and that's why you stick to reputable and widely accepted translations that seek to honor the original Greek and Hebrew.
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Exactly. While none of the original manuscripts in the handwriting of the original writers exist, some of the very ancient transcriptions have survived the years. In centuries past there were drastic differences found in Protestant and Catholic translations and thus many disagreements about what the original books actually said. Progress in archaeology, linguistics, and history has helped scholars reach agreement regarding the texts.

These manuscripts were formed into the collection we know as the Old Testament. The Septuagint begun about 250BC and completed about 100BC was the most important and earliest translation in Greek and Aramaic, the only language that most of them understood at the time. It would be the one that was widely used in Palestine and distributed throughout the Mediterranian world during the time of Christ and for the 1st Century or longer into the Christian era. The Apostles of Christ used this translation most often in their teaching.

There was also another collection in use that came to be known as the Palestinian. The Septuagint and Palestinian collections were honored by different Jewish communities and neither of these collections reached their definitive form until after the time of Christ. The Alexandrian (Septuagint) collection was accepted by Christians as their Old Testament, and the Palestinian was set by a group of Jewish scholars about 100AD partially in reaction to the Christian use of the Septuagint collection.





Reply #47 Top
If several of us witness a traffic light turning from green to red and write down what we saw, our account would be historically accurate.
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One very important thing you completly missed. I light turning from green to red isn't History, it is just an event.

Peoples interperttion of how and event effects us is a better description of what History is, and more importantly, it is what gets written down in history books.

The exact datews of when a president was in office, isn't history, it is trivia. What that president did during office, what the political/social/economic conditions were are the important parts of history, and we all know that, that is open to interpertation.

For instance, if I ask the history of "President Clinton", what would I get?
If I went to Rwanda, and asked that question, what would I get?
If i asked a Republican, what would I get?
If i asked a Democrate, what would I get?




Reply #48 Top
Bryan Harstad posts:
I believe the bible is based on history, but that doesn't necassarily mean that everything in the bible is true.
.........

With out just 'blindly believing'...My question is why would the bible be any different?
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Everything in the Bible is true when it is understood and interpreted in its proper context. It's true becasue it's the inspired Word of God and God can neither deceive or be deceived. This means that God inspired the human authors to teach the truths needed for our salvation. Regarding history, the Holy Bible is our salvation history. God then gave us the Holy Bible to help us answer great questions in life...Why are we here? What's the source of created things? Is there a God? How ought we to live? What happens to us when we die? When reading Sacred Scripture we are conversing with the living God, challenged to believe and hope, to love and give, to sacrifice and share, to forgive and be forgiven, to grow and trust. For me reading the Bible is a starting point for prayer.

Also regarding the Holy Bible and history, aided by archaeological finds, historians have been able to obtain more accurate picture of ancient times as well as almost every aspect of life mentioned. They've been able to document real historical truth and to differentiate the non-historical parts of the Bible from the historical parts(which KFC has referred to as in parables, stories, songs, etc.).

It is no small wonder that we have problems discerning the meaning of Sacred Scripture...besides proper translations, the Bible must be interpreted--- by going back to the time and place and discover what the author originally intended to express. For example look at when Christ says in St. Luke 14:26, "If any man come to Me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Does that mean we must detest our family? Or did the Aramaic spoken by Christ mean something else?









Reply #49 Top
KFC POSTS in #8
Yes, but the bible is not like that. What you have is a compilation of 66 books written by about 40 authors that are in complete agreement even tho these individual books span a period of 1500 years in three diff continents. That's amazing.
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Alas, even today we still have a discrepancy between our Holy Bibles. Catholic Bibles have 73 Books and the Protestant ones have only 66.

Above, I mentioned two different collections...the Septuagint collection that was completed in 100BC and the Palestinian one decided in 100AD. The Septuagint Old Testament collection consisting of an exact translation of the 46 Books of inspired Hebrew texts(later translated into Latin by St. Jerome in the early 400s and then translated into English in the Douay Rheims) is the one the Catholic Church, who from the time of Christ, has always used.

What is amazing is the story behind the Old Testament translation into the Greek called the Septuagint made in the 3rd century before the coming of Christ. Septuagint means seventy. The Septuagint was made by 70 Jerusalem Jews under 2 leaders who didn't participate in the work of the translation. They were translators learned in the Hebrew language, who were sent to ALexandria by the Jewish High priest Eleaser of Jerusalem to translate into Greek the Divine Books then extant.

The Septuagint was made by the 70 each working independently of each other and without consulting each other. There work was so identical, so exactly alike that it was said by rabbis to be as though some invisible prompter has whispered into the ears of each.

One can reasonably believe the Septuagint was providential. It enabled the knowledge of the Old Law, its Divine prophecies, and their culmination in the coming of the Messias to be spread among the Gentiles who did not know the Hebrew language. The general expectation of the coming of "the great king who was to arise among the Jews", such as caused the Magi to return to Bethlehem, was due to this Greek version of the OLd Testament.

Greek was the world language when the Septuagint translation was made. Heberew as a language was on the decline among Jews long before those days. That is no doubt why all but one of the NT were written in Greek. During the days of the second temple, Aramaic was the language spoken by Jews of Palestine. As a matter of fact, Hebrew was so hardly known that a translator stood beside the reader in the synagogue to translate the Hebrew into Aramaic.

The Septuagint translation was initially used by everyone. It's authenticity or integrity was not questioned by the Jews until after the Messias came into His own, after He was rejected by most of them, and the early Christian Church had taken the place of the synagogue.

It is the Catholic Chruch who has the authority that warrants Catholics believeing with absolute certainity that the Septuagint texts contains all of the Divinely inspired books of the OT and therefore the inadequacy and unauthenticity of the Protestant canon.

We know this first of all becasue in those days the integrity of the sacred books was so faithfully safeguarded from corruption by a body of Jewish scribes that the appearance of the Septuagint would not have been greeted with enthusiam everywhere if it were not an exact translation of the 46 books of inspired Hebrew texts.

The canon of the 39 OT books in Protestant Bibles is of unsound historic standing for it is definitively of Jewish non-Palestinian origin, having been agreed upon as the canon of the Jews during their dispersion after "the glory had departed" from Jewry, a "glory" which was theirs when they had an Aaronic priesthood, a Temple, a Sanhedrin, sacrifices, and a reasonable hope of the coming of the Messias, as He had not yet come.

Secondly, while the Catholic Church depends upon the use of the Septuagint by Christ and His Apostles, as well as Tradition, to sustain her declaration that the 46 Books are writings inspired by God, she has her infallible power exercised during the Councils at Rome in 382, Hippo in 393, and Carthage in 397 to eliminate all doubts on the part of Catholics as to their Divine authenticity.

LW posts #40:
The reason the 66 books by 40 different authors are in complete agreement is not so amazing once you recognize the fact that the council of nicea made it so by rejecting, banning, and destroying any gospel that didn't conform with the conclusions they came to at that meeting.

Of course they're all in agreement, that was the entire purpose of the council.
End of quote



There was little dissent until the 16th century when Martin Luther and other Protestants rejected the Alexandrian Septuagint in favor of the Palestinian Jewish list. In 1546, the Council of Trent defined the Alexandrian as the official list of 43 OT books for Catholics and reaffirmed the traditional 27 Books of the NT. As a result Catholics and Protestants today share the same NT, while the Catholic OT contains 7 more books: Tobit, Judith, First and Second Machabees, Wisdom, SIrach, sometimes called Ecclesiasticus and Barach plus additional Esther and Daniel. The Protestant churches do not nor do they assume to have such infallible power. So, the Protestant question of the authenticity and cononicity of the books in the Bible is dependent upon mere human judgment, which is faulty and thus questionable.

Reply #50 Top
Everything in the Bible is true when it is understood and interpreted in its proper context. It's true becasue it's the inspired Word of God and God can neither deceive or be deceived.

Couple things wrong with above statement.
1. Man an be decieved.
2. Bible changes depending on what version of god you believe in.
3. Comes down to blind faith.

How ought we to live?

Society determins that, god had nothing to do with the following: slavery, womens rights, war, etc...

Also regarding the Holy Bible and history, aided by archaeological finds, historians have been able to obtain more accurate picture of ancient times as well as almost every aspect of life mentioned. They've been able to document real historical truth and to differentiate the non-historical parts of the Bible from the historical parts(which KFC has referred to as in parables, stories, songs, etc.).

How many historical inacuracys have been pointed out in the bible?

If you take out the double negatives in the scripture you quoted, it makes perfect sense to me, it says you have to love mother, father, etc.., then you can become a disciple.

"If any man come to Me, and love his father, and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea and his own life also, he can be my disciple."