“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” – B. Franklin

By on February 19, 2016 6:20:52 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

DrJBHL

Join Date 04/2002
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Tim Cook, is saying “No!”, in thunder to the DoJ.

But…”What if there’s info in there that would help catch terrorists?” That “What if” that makes us decide for ourselves the answer to Ben Franklin’s statement. Tim Cook said “No.” to the Justice Department’s Order to assist the FBI extract data from the San Bernadino terrorist’s phone. Wanna know something? He was right to do so.

Why? Well, for one thing, does it occur to anyone that the FBI has the terrorist’s fingerprint? So, why can’t they unlock the phone? Does it occur to anyone the government has super Cray computers which could have unlocked that phone? Why do they want the backdoor which they’ve wanted for a year at least? Why are they saying this is a “once only” when it clearly is not?

The FBI says it would be a “one time”, and that your device’s security wouldn’t be compromised. Security experts disagree: THEY say it will. Guess who I believe? Why should anyone believe that “one time” nonsense? The NSA collected your data illegally for years. Now? Congress has made it legal. Trust them to take your rights without a fight.

From the moment the FBI was created, J. Edgar Hoover collected dirt on everyone and used it to blackmail Presidents and Congresses and Courts. You think anything has changed? They’ve only gotten better at it, and justifying it because they know they’re dealing with sheep (sorry, Jim). The government has violated your rights with impunity, and poo-poo it, and they’ve done it for years…and will continue to do so.

So, if they can unlock the phone (does anyone really believe they can’t?), why ask a Court for an order? Because they want it “legally” (who doesn’t love a farce?), and more than ANYTHING, they want a PRECEDENT. That is what they MUST NOT obtain. The Bill of Rights stands as an integrated whole. The First, Second and Fifth Amendments most definitely depend upon the Fourth Amendment, and “What if” is Not sufficient reason to violate anyone’s privacy, just as “We want to know” isn’t, either.

The government knows it cannot justify the iPhone search with proof there actually is data there which is critical to the security of America. They are acting out of “What if?”. Well, that’s called a “fishing expedition”. It is inadequate reason for a Federal Judge to grant a search warrant. The Court Order was a serious breach of every citizen’s right to privacy and unreasonable search and seizure. Judges guard the Fourth Amendment jealously. They’d better, because the FBI would be looking at their phones with any imaginary “what if” they could dream up. Not just the FBI: Every local Police Dep’t. could “justify” such a search in a similar manner. Where is the boundary?

“We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.” – B. Franklin. Well, The EFF and ACLU, Google, Twitter and Facebook are standing with Apple on this. Shaping up to be an epic fight. I hope “We the People” win. “Backdoors” weaken security. They do not strengthen it. If a backdoor exists, ANYONE can exploit it, and will. The CIA has been trying to break into iPhones for years without success. You can bet the FSB and others have, as well.

So, Tim Cook is vowing to fight the DoJ’s Magistrate’s Order all the way to the Supreme Court. So would I: At best? There’ll be a tie, and no way to resolve it. Fitting in a karmic way.

Source:

http://www.engadget.com/2016/02/18/fbi-apple-iphone-explainer/

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February 19, 2016 7:04:28 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

They might not actually be able to.  If it's designed to wipe itself when tampered with, and it's memory doesn't leave retrievable information after it wipes, then there is conceivably no way to unlock it without the four digit key it supposedly requires.  If it can be tampered with safely, then the tamper proof design is flawed.  I'd assume it's flawed, since people aren't perfect, but who knows, maybe they've actually made it tamper proof.

 

That aside, Fuck the FBI, ATF, NSA, CIA, and any other member of the alphabet soup that wants anyone to give up anything in pursuit of my supposed safety.  I expect to be shot refusing to be disarmed at some point in the next few decades when they repeal the second amendment, zero interest in surrendering what little privacy is left.  Even if I'm just paranoid and I really don't need to worry about it, I'd still be less likely to die to terrorists than I am to medical malpractice, traffic congestion, or even bathing.  Bathtubs, now that's a real danger, we should totally outlaw proper hygiene, if everyone would simply stay away from tubs and showers, we'd save far more people than eradicating terrorism would!

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February 19, 2016 7:28:04 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Apple updates by wifi...so, loading what the DoJ wants can be done that way, too.

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February 19, 2016 7:35:27 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

 God protect the rights of the terrorist...

 

...above ALL ELSE...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

including logic and/or common sense/humanity

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February 19, 2016 8:18:31 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

MS is also backing Apple on this and so should every living sentient being in the country. Screw the government, they haven't had the best interests of the people in mind for more than a century and I doubt they ever will. Letting an agency have its way leads to disaster. Viet Nam was one, the illegal invasion of Irag was another. If this is too political please feel free to delete and/or move it. 

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February 19, 2016 9:20:10 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Jafo,

 God protect the rights of the terrorist...

 

...above ALL ELSE...including logic and/or common sense/humanity

 

We defend the rights of all because not to do so will result in the loss of rights for all. 

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February 19, 2016 9:46:11 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Being a mod kinda sorta, to a tiny degree, requires a bit of a small authoritarian streak, so Jafo. 

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February 19, 2016 11:07:57 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

How much do you trust D.C.? NSA, CIA and all of it. I don't trust them. Those who practice genocide all over the planet.

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February 19, 2016 11:18:50 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

The work of maintaining freedom is hard.  Totalitarianism is much easier.

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February 19, 2016 11:29:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This is a nice masquerade they got going on. If you go back a couple of years the big names (Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook etc) were deep in bed with the triple-lettered agencies. About a year and a bit back, warnings start coming in that the big boys might be losing business to places with better privacy. And now this dance and show. Apple sticking up to the man? Give me a break... carefully choreographed but not plausible. The simplest solution to losing money was always just to lie about it. 

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February 19, 2016 11:37:28 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Ok, so if you think the government is out to get you, why haven't you started a revolution? Why aren't you holed up in a bunker and off the grid if they can track your every move? After all, what's the point of leaving a trail online?

Why didn't you join the folks in the Oregon standoff?

If you can't trust the government, who are you voting for?..and if you vote for them aren't you re-enforcing the current system? Can you trust this candidate to take back the government for the benefit of the people?

If you don't support any candidate, and you think everything is broken, why are you still here? I hear that Canada needs people.

 

Actions (or inaction) speaks louder than words...

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February 19, 2016 11:54:15 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

It's not beyond the pale to consider that this is an elaborate charade to persuade us they can't do what they are already doing, but my scalp is really itching under this TFH.

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February 19, 2016 12:03:22 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Ben Franklin is quite right!

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February 19, 2016 12:10:30 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Tim Cook is doing the right thing. And John McAfee is here to help! He will solve this problem or eat his shoe... The agencies can probably do this on their own but they want a legal backdoor. Totalitarian surveillance seems to be high on the wishlist of many politicians.

 

http://news.softpedia.com/news/john-mcafee-i-ll-decrypt-the-san-bernardino-iphone-or-i-ll-eat-my-shoe-500613.shtml

 

 

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February 19, 2016 12:17:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Borg999,

Ok, so if you think the government is out to get you, why haven't you started a revolution? Why aren't you holed up in a bunker and off the grid if they can track your every move? After all, what's the point of leaving a trail online?

Why didn't you join the folks in the Oregon standoff?

If you can't trust the government, who are you voting for?..and if you vote for them aren't you re-enforcing the current system? Can you trust this candidate to take back the government for the benefit of the people?

If you don't support any candidate, and you think everything is broken, why are you still here? I hear that Canada needs people.

 

Actions (or inaction) speaks louder than words...

 

Calm down a bit? I don't know how you went from not trusting Apple's spiel to armed takeovers of government facilities... I'm not calling into question the whole system of government.

I own an iphone. I'm happy with it. I'm just not under any illusion that my data on it is in any way safe from snooping eye-gencies (pardon the pun). And I certainly don't buy the image of Tim Cook as making some kind of moral stand against the people he's been in bed with for years.

PS. I'm Swedish. 

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February 19, 2016 12:19:42 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Daiwa,

Being a mod kinda sorta, to a tiny degree, requires a bit of a small authoritarian streak, so Jafo. 

Jafo's here like everyone else 99% mostly...not as a Mod/Admin. [I also sell bridges in Brooklyn].

To be sure, if things start getting out of hand, the expected will happen: So, good to keep that in mind. Remember, Jafo collects scalps.

Jafo also has an Aussie view point which I respect, and agree with all, most some of the time. I too have a large dislike for terrorists of any stripe, but a far healthier respect for our Constitution.

 

Quoting Daiwa,

The work of maintaining freedom is hard.  Totalitarianism is much easier.

My point, exactly.

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February 19, 2016 1:47:12 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Several stories say Apple has unlocked phones in the past.  http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/17/apple-unlocked-iphones-for-the-feds-70-times-before.html

In another article, the journalist claims Apple never unlocked the phones, they simply bypassed the lock.  http://techcrunch.com/2016/02/18/no-apple-has-not-unlocked-70-iphones-for-law-enforcement/ 

Is that a distinction that matters?  "Your honor, I didn't pick the lock, I knocked a hole in the wall and got in that way."

The protection against "unreasonable search and seizure" doesn't apply when someone is already in custody for a capital crime.  If they are found guilty would anyone have a problem, at that point, with the phone being unlocked?  

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February 19, 2016 2:33:45 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting gevansmd,

The protection against "unreasonable search and seizure" doesn't apply when someone is already in custody for a capital crime.

Actually, being in custody does not negate the person's Constitutional protections. A Search Warrant would still have to be obtained or the evidence would be inadmissible.

If convicted? How'd they manage that without legally obtained evidence?

 

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February 19, 2016 2:52:47 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Borg999,


If you don't support any candidate, and you think everything is broken, why are you still here? I hear that Canada needs people.
 

Actions (or inaction) speaks louder than words...

 

I live in the UK so I cannot and won't comment on the US.


But I will comment on this, because I practice a live and let live policy. I have no interest in voting for essentially the same three personalities every year, at least we get a bit more choice over the pond but still far too little. That doesn't mean either that I should have to move, this is my home.

The system either needs to do away with parties and have a list of professional candidates standing for government, the top scientists, doctors, teachers, businessmen and yes working class laborers, janitors for a representative vote, two from each profession. Would they be biased, yes of course everyone is biased to their own interest this just biases it to all professions, and all walks of life.

OR

It needs 50 parties with 50 candidates from all walks of life.
 

On a side note I also have no notion that folk are out to get me, they have a lot more important things to be doing, but I also have no illusions that over here at least we have far too many national laws, which often equates to less and less local common sense for the communities they are enforced in. I would hate for america to get as bad as the UK in that regard.

 

 

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February 19, 2016 3:16:20 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,

Aussie view point

Member nations of the Commonwealth have the Magna Carta going for them, but not the specific rights enumerated in our Bill of Rights.  So the relationship between subject and crown is a little different from the relationship between citizen and state.

'Course, you knew that.

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February 19, 2016 4:25:28 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

My country right or wrong.

 

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February 19, 2016 4:54:22 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Evil is cunning. Evil is also patient: it knows very well that most people would not accept a radical change overnight. That most people are good and would rebel if evil was suddenly imposed on them. It also knows that people are like frogs in slow boiling water - because the change in temperature is oh-so-gradual the frog will eventually let itself be boiled to death.

The heart slowly hardens as it is exposed to more and more misery. What would make people jump into action a few years ago, now barely makes them bat an eyelid.

So what does evil do? First it disguises its true motivation with what, on the surface, appears to be good intentions. It shows us the smaller picture hoping people will not be able to see the Truth, which can only be seen by looking at the much bigger picture, i.e.; at ALL the consequences of a particular change. Society adapts to the ever more permissive laws, but it never stops to take balance. It never pauses to look at the big picture (are things better or actually worse than they were before? And, if worse, why?) - it keeps blindly going forward.

Oh society does notice that the nuclear family is slowly being destroyed, that respect for life and freedom is slowly being eroded, that loyalty and honesty and keeping your word are now a rarity instead of a common trait. We more and more see young kids shooting other kids in schools, something that never happened before, and we look for answers in all the wrong places.

We don't want to face the truth because facing the truth would make us feel uncomfortable.

We expect our politicians to lie. We know well before-hand that they will get in bed with the powerful economic groups once in power, instead of defending who they were elected to defend. And we now accept all this as a 'fact of life'.

And in we so doing is where evil wins.

We think of all these as isolated situations. But they are not, because all these changes serve a common goal.

Totalitarianism is already here. Or rather, all the tools are already in place: CCTV everywhere (in the name of security, of course), the means to track down every individual's movements (GPS tracking on every cell phone) and thoughts (what he browses on the Internet, what emails he sends, what information about himself he willingly puts on Facebook, what documents he has on his Windows 10 computer, etc..).

One day someone somewhere will press that button. And when that happens we will wake up from our stupor - but it will be too late. Hell on earth.

Sorry, just philosophizing a bit... I'm sure the above is nothing but tin foil hats and conspiracy theories.

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February 19, 2016 5:02:18 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

So... DoJ's new spin? Apple's stand is just posing for their corporate image and marketing. Too bad DoJ doesn't worry about its careless trampling of our right to privacy under the guise of "protecting" us.

Tell you what, D.C.: Let us protect ourselves and you all butt out of our privacy, thanks very much.

The nine most dreaded words: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help!"

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February 19, 2016 6:23:05 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,


Quoting gevansmd,

The protection against "unreasonable search and seizure" doesn't apply when someone is already in custody for a capital crime.



Actually, being in custody does not negate the person's Constitutional protections. A Search Warrant would still have to be obtained or the evidence would be inadmissible.

If convicted? How'd they manage that without legally obtained evidence?

 

 

My point is, getting a warrant when you're in custody for the crime should be easier.  In other words, it's not an unreasonable search.  It appears as if proper procedures were followed to get the order.

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February 19, 2016 7:22:47 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,

DoJ's new spin? Apple's stand is just posing for their corporate image and marketing.

That'll be right on the money [no pun].

Apple needs to protect its 'bottom line'.

Remember...this company is ever so righteous and humane.... but if it loses a single penny how the hell can it afford to purchase more suicide catch nets?

 

Let the fuckers first pay Oz the $300 million they owe in 'avoided' taxes .... then I might just consider them slightly less than pond scum.

 

There are really fucking good reasons why I own exactly zero products from Apple.

 

 

 

When does all this 'we must protect self above all else' end....?  What about the quite LEGITIMATE scenario that NOT accessing an ACTUAL terrorist's information fails to prevent a second 9-11 ?

Don't worry about the dead....at least our rights are intact.

It's utter bullshit.... this distorted sense of 'right'.

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February 19, 2016 8:29:36 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Ben Franklin would tend to disagree, I'd think, but he's unavailable for comment.

There is no 'third option' that both guarantees individual liberties and prevents bad actors from being bad.

Scenario 1: Favoring sustaining individual rights has consequences.

Scenario 2: Favoring compromising individual rights in the name of safety* has consequences.

Either choice will necessarily involve unknown (and unknowable) potential consequences, but scenario two tempts with the false implication that 'knowing' who will win or lose is possible.

Given a choice between only those two scenarios, our Founders bet on sustaining individual rights as the choice more likely to benefit the greatest number to the greatest degree.  I still think they made the right bet.  But I'm open to changing my mind if someone can come up with that elusive third option, and make it operable in the real world.

*Safety is a vague and relative term, subject to all forms of preference and interpretation.

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