DirectX 12 vs. DirectX 11

By on December 10, 2014 6:09:47 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
+1484

Windows 10 will be coming with DirectX 12.  DirectX 12 is the first version of DirectX that really uses multiple cores effectively.

Below are two slides provided by Microsoft:

image

DirectX 11: See how much of the work is done on the first core?

 

image

DirectX 12, the work gets split up.

Bottom line: In DirectX 11 this frame took almost 9ms to render.  In DirectX 12, it took about 4ms.  Now, how much real world improvement you get depends heavily on both the developer and the game.  But the reason we’re all getting so excited is that DirectX 12 should be the biggest performance bump for those who utilize it we’ve ever seen.

What this means to you

Next time you watch Jurassic Park or Phantom Menace, please realize that the CGI in those movies can be done in real-time today.  However, most graphics engines in games still render scenes very differently than in movies.  That’s because it’s only recently been possible to create real-world fidelity in real-time.  But a modern machine with DirectX 12 (or Mantle) could do real-time visuals in a game that is as good as you would get in say Lord of the Rings.

The Post-Frame Rate game world

We will need get away from frame rate as being the key metric on its own (unless we’re comparing apples and apples).  The DirectX 12 / Mantle specific games will look unmistakably different than what we have today.

What we basically do today in games is render a frame and then apply a bunch of post-process effects to it.  In a DirectX 12 / Mantle world we’ll render images the same way they did CGI in the past.  With a modern CPU + GPU combo with DirectX 12 you could do parts of the Battle of Helms Deep from LOTR in real-time.  Keep a very close eye on Unreal 4, Frostbite, Crytek and of course Nitrous.

Locked Post 24 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 10, 2014 8:16:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

However, if I understand it correctly, no actual tech demo is available? No engine that could demonstrate it on a prototype version of the new Windows? Just two slides from Microsoft? Then I am a bit skeptical. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 10, 2014 9:06:23 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Hmmm... It will be a long time till games are Dx12 compatible, people still use Dx9 and 10&11 are a luxury. I can't see people saving up checks and cutting funds to buy win 10 with Dx12. Even if its great.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 10, 2014 9:43:35 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Now if only MS would rework FSX to use DX12 [instead of 9] ....on a game that's so CPU intensive and has to be fooled into noticing multi-cores and LMA [it's 32bit]....

Real-time CGI would blow people's minds in a flightsim...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 10, 2014 9:56:03 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

I think your mind is safe for a while.  Probably for the duration. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 11, 2014 10:56:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So since DX12 won't be backported to win7 or win8, is it going to take 6-8 years for this to have any meaningful impact? 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 11, 2014 11:04:28 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
So since DX12 won't be backported to win7 or win8, is it going to take 6-8 years for this to have any meaningful impact? 

 

I would say at least.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 11, 2014 11:08:01 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

This is why I hate Microsoft sometimes, Windows 7 is still a fantastic OS, Windows 8 was completely unnecessary and now we have Windows 10 coming?  Ridiculous.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 11, 2014 11:32:31 AM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

Gonna be really interesting to see DirectX 12 battle it out against Mantle!   A bit like 3dfx Glide vs DirectX back in the day.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 11, 2014 12:57:37 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

And Mantle already has the distinct advantage of not being a Windows 10 exclusive.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 11, 2014 1:05:31 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Won't someone figure out how to backport it for us innocent people, if MS does not?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 11, 2014 1:31:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Lavo_2,

And Mantle already has the distinct advantage of not being a Windows 10 exclusive.

And the disadvantage being it is AMD only. There are a *LOT* of intel/nvidia users out there that will be unaffected by Mantle.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 11, 2014 1:51:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Tbh I see mantle in a couple of games (BF4 ,DA:I for example) and it's always shit. There's always crossfire glitches, shadow flickering, crashes, insane loading times. I'm sure mantle could be used right, but it's just not. I really wanted it to be awesome but ;( 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 11, 2014 3:02:07 PM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

Quoting Leo in WI,


Quoting Lavo_2,

And Mantle already has the distinct advantage of not being a Windows 10 exclusive.



And the disadvantage being it is AMD only. There are a *LOT* of intel/nvidia users out there that will be unaffected by Mantle.

 

Intel users don't count since they don't have a graphicscard.

 

Quoting Heavenfall,

Tbh I see mantle in a couple of games (BF4 ,DA:I for example) and it's always shit. There's always crossfire glitches, shadow flickering, crashes, insane loading times. I'm sure mantle could be used right, but it's just not. I really wanted it to be awesome but ;( 

 

I'm a regular over at SweClockers and while I've heard of problems with Crossfire, I haven't heard of all those Mantleproblems you mention so where you're getting all those from?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 11, 2014 3:21:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Battlefield 4, Dragon Age: Inquisition, Civilization: Beyond Earth, Star Citizen

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 11, 2014 5:46:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

If you're running crossfire and getting "mantle glitches", it's probably just crossfire.

 

I've never even considered running dual AMD cards because they just don't have it down.  Microstutter, tearing, piss poor performance, etc.  They frequently screw their drivers up, resulting in more severe game specific problems for crossfire users.  Nvidia does a much better job on this front, but plenty of people have dropped two cards because of stuttering problems.  You can end up with superior performance using less horsepower quite easily.

 

I'd yank a card and run them solo, judge mantle without the added factor.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 11, 2014 6:38:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting charon2112,

This is why I hate Microsoft sometimes, Windows 7 is still a fantastic OS, Windows 8 was completely unnecessary and now we have Windows 10 coming?  Ridiculous.

Agreed. I dont mind them releasing new versions of windows, but forcing me to buy the new one, if i want such a basic feature as new DirectX support, thats pretty bad behavior. 

They did the same with Skype on Win mobile 7.5, switched it off one day and all you could do, if you wanted Skype, but had Win7.5 phone, was to buy a new phone.

And then i read about the chief of Microsoft, the Nadella guy, how he was just paid zillions... i guess he deserved those for all these customer friendly decisions...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 11, 2014 10:42:32 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,

Tbh I see mantle in a couple of games (BF4 ,DA:I for example) and it's always shit. There's always crossfire glitches, shadow flickering, crashes, insane loading times. I'm sure mantle could be used right, but it's just not. I really wanted it to be awesome but ;( 

 

Is there official word from Microsoft that Dx12 isn't not coming to windows 7?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 12, 2014 12:53:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting psychoak,

If you're running crossfire and getting "mantle glitches", it's probably just crossfire.

 

I've never even considered running dual AMD cards because they just don't have it down.  Microstutter, tearing, piss poor performance, etc.  They frequently screw their drivers up, resulting in more severe game specific problems for crossfire users.  Nvidia does a much better job on this front, but plenty of people have dropped two cards because of stuttering problems.  You can end up with superior performance using less horsepower quite easily.

 

I'd yank a card and run them solo, judge mantle without the added factor.

Yes but a huge thing about mantle is that it's supposed to be the ultimate crossfire solution. If I can use crossfire well with dx11, why would I give a hoot about mantle that can't? This is my whole point, it's just underdeveloped. Either mis-used by the devs or mis-used by AMD. Every experience I've had with it has been bad, and that's what I'm basing my judgement on. Crossfire is not an "added factor", it's a selling point for mantle.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 12, 2014 7:25:07 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I don't see how Crossfire is a selling point for Mantle when SLI(which also looks like crap frequently) has routinely performed better.  If Crossfire looks like crap, it's still going to look like crap with Mantle, it will just be 20% faster crap.  Mantle's selling point is that you can actually make a high fidelity RTS without thrashing your CPU.  Even FPS games can see gains, but where this and DX12 will be titanic is in systems that require the CPU for something besides handling Microsoft's shit architecture.  The games you listed aren't anything approaching CPU intensive, they only burn it up because DX10 and 11 are so bad.

 

The only way I can see Crossfire as a major selling point for Mantle is in future gains.  Perhaps now that AMD's CPU's will be fast enough to actually handle two cards at once, they can get that cleaned up a little better.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 12, 2014 9:50:20 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Campaigner,

Intel users don't count since they don't have a graphicscard.

You'll notice I didn't say intel users, I said intel/nvidia users. I believe they have graphics cards.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 12, 2014 2:00:04 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Leo in WI,
And the disadvantage being it is AMD only. There are a *LOT* of intel/nvidia users out there that will be unaffected by Mantle.

The primary reason it is AMD only is due to the fact that nVidia does not like anything that isn't theirs. Mantle's end goal is becoming widespread across all GPUs, though nVidia has a hard time accepting anything from a competitor, open or not.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 12, 2014 2:32:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If Nvidia had invented it, AMD wouldn't be using it. AMD are very clever to come up with the "anybody can use it" approach, as if Nvidia would ever consider it. I don't blame nvidia for not using it, it would be suicide in a market with two competitors for one to admit the other did something great.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 12, 2014 4:57:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,

If Nvidia had invented it, AMD wouldn't be using it. AMD are very clever to come up with the "anybody can use it" approach, as if Nvidia would ever consider it. I don't blame nvidia for not using it, it would be suicide in a market with two competitors for one to admit the other did something great.

 

Not only that, there are bound to be architecture differences that prevent the use, without modifying Mantle. Now, you have put AMD in the spot of making sure that the code supports nvidia chips completely and just as robustly as their own, or opening up their source code to their competitor. Neither sounds like a good plan for any company. And you also have put nvidia in the spot of taking AMD's word that Mantle will run "just as well" on nvidia as possible.

That just does not seem a good or likely plan, marketing, technologically, or otherwise.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
December 15, 2014 4:31:25 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Ahh... so this is why we don't have Demigod II yet... you were waiting for the right technology to come along.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108433  walnut3   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000266   Page Render Time: