Don't Go to the Steam Forums! Yikes!

By on October 2, 2014 7:22:28 PM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

XWerewolfX

Join Date 02/2006
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Perhaps it's best to not engage the public there any more. Jeez!

 

I'm thinking a closed EA next time, with just those on the forums! Ha!

 

Also, I want the minor faction build. I don't care if my computer explodes if/when I run it.

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October 8, 2014 10:58:35 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The worst type of troll is your basic bully, they want only to see you cry.  In my experience, developers that are both witty and polite, seem to be mostly immune to trolls, and on occasion have actually won the troll over.  The troll becoming a dedicated fan.  


I don't really think it's possible for a few trolls with their bad reviews to harm the game, as long as you have fans/followers of your games and company.   They sort of negate the bad.


I do feel sorry for first time developers though, they must go through hell until they learn the ropes.

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October 8, 2014 12:07:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I can live with trolls and criticism. What I don't like is the  "Don't argue with me, the customer is always right" attitude. 

If someone wants to criticize the game, fine.  But I'm a developer, not a PR rep. If they want a PR person, that can be arranged. But if they want to talk to developers they're going to be dealing with people who will say "no, actually, what you just said is factually wrong."

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October 8, 2014 12:36:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

I can live with trolls and criticism. What I don't like is the  "Don't argue with me, the customer is always right" attitude. 

If someone wants to criticize the game, fine.  But I'm a developer, not a PR rep. If they want a PR person, that can be arranged. But if they want to talk to developers they're going to be dealing with people who will say "no, actually, what you just said is factually wrong."

Agreed. 

I say that you stick to your own forums. Let someone else deal with the Steam forums. You can appoint moderators, too. I'm here if you need one of those. 

 

I get so tired of all the anger out there when it comes to video games. I felt myself becoming angry about some vidya game stuff a bit ago and I took a hard look at why I was getting angry and backed off. I don't know if there just isn't enough maturity in the community to do that or if people just need something to be mad at, but it's wholly disconcerting in general. 

 

Bottom line, Frog: you're doing good things and you're making games that a lot of us *really* enjoy. Eff those douchebags that cry about every little mistake you have made. I can guarantee that no one out there has done it with as much grace and humility as you and your co-workers have. If they can't see that, I suggest they get their eyes/moral compasses/hearts checked, because it's painfully obvious to the aware. 

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October 8, 2014 12:50:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I remember a time long, long, ago when computer games made you happy and elated.  You could not wait to get home from work to play them.

When all this anger and frustration came in I don't really know.  It's sort of turned the whole object of games on it's head.  I blame mobile phones.


BTW: what sort of time period are we likely to see updates on SK?

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October 8, 2014 2:06:50 PM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

The secret to life is to find what truly fulfills you.

A lot of people are unfulfilled so they rage against other people.

 

 

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October 8, 2014 2:11:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Thormodr,

The secret to life is to find what truly fulfills you.

A lot of people are unfulfilled so they rage against other people.

 

 

 

QFT

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October 8, 2014 2:45:35 PM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

Try not to let bad apples spoil the whole bunch. There is a large, and silent, audience on the Steam Forums so it is worthwhile to stick around at the court and keep playing ball. Hecklers, bullies, or those who provide legitimate feedback, albeit in a non-constructive way, will always happen. If you pack up and head home they win. No one has control over bullies and such but everyone has control how they personally react to them when they show up. I recommend just calling the conversation over when you feel the other side is just trolling or not really interested in dialogue. Canned response for "I'm done with this convo" could be "Thank you for the feedback. Please revisit the game when complete as I would love to hear your thoughts then." without any other color or commentary. In other words, play ball but don't let anyone pull you into the muck or psych you out. F that. Sorry if I sound preachy but I respect Stardock's culture. To hell with the idiots.

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October 8, 2014 2:57:23 PM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

"Thank you for the feedback. Please revisit the game when complete as I would love to hear your thoughts then."

 

Trollfire at its finest. Incapable of regenerating from that.

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October 9, 2014 7:24:32 PM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

Quoting AlLanMandragoran,

Try not to let bad apples spoil the whole bunch. There is a large, and silent, audience on the Steam Forums so it is worthwhile to stick around at the court and keep playing ball.

Yeah, I read a lot on the Steam forums but it's almost never worthwhile to post anything. There's always that thread that calls the developers a bunch of idiots, and the thread that wants a refund, and the thread that hates the people that hate other things, and the thread that can't seem to decide who they're mad at. Etc etc etc.

But once you have your idiot armor on, it can be a useful way to find things out. Especially during the Early Access period, when you're tracking a number of games and you want to see what's new.

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October 10, 2014 12:47:41 AM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

I agree with whomever said that the Steam forums are the new Gamefaqs. Thankfully, I tend to believe that most people are relatively content and don't bother or are too busy to post to message boards.

Personally, I am convinced that Sorcerer King is on a good path to be a great 4X game. And I think there is plenty that is unique about it.

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October 10, 2014 5:00:33 AM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

Hello. I'm a fellow gamer, passionate about games and fantasy worlds.

I'm also the writer of the (main, visible) bad review. I'm also known as (quoting the toxic comments from here, and Brad's comments from steam forums):

Toxic, douchbag, idiot, heckler, bully, troll, grognard, impolite and unkind. It hurts, but I can understand the passionate response and I don't blame you for being emotive. I forgive you any slight against me, I'm sure it's not quite as personal as it sounds.

That being said... I'd much rather people attacked my words than my person. Or commented to my face and not snidely and behind my back. A review is intended for other potential customers, not existing fans or as a pat on the back for developers. It should be an honest opinion, with each opinion having equal weight. 1 person, 1 vote that sort of thing. I should be massively drowned out by the wave of glowing reviews, all games get a handful of bad reviews from time to time.

Instead I find my review locked for being insulting, attacks against my person and a string of insults rather than a defence of the game and arguments against my words. Show your support for the game on steam if you are so moved. Argue your case and stand-up for the Devs if that's your passion. But hiding here and swearing at me isn't doing the game any good. You aren't being supportive of the Devs by posting here instead of steam. The steam forums reach a larger audience. Being silent there hurts the Devs, those that supported frogboy heed my questions:

Where are your glowing reviews? Where is your defence of the arguments on steam? Are you actually supporting the devs by calling me names? Is that really helpful?

 

I don't think Brad is the best person at PR. (Understatement) But I don't think he's evil either, I want to be able to update my review, to change it and eventually for it to become positive when the game wins me over with entertaining surprises. But I can't do that while it's blocked. It is intended for new people, not die-hard fans. It should be seen as a comparison with other games, like Endless Legend or Worlds of Magic.

So I ask you, is it currently worth more than those games? If you think it is, by all means say that in your review. I don't think Brad will block your review for such unhelpful, unconstructive comments. "I like it" has 0 points for being constructive, but it's valid and could help potential buyers. So post it if you're that angry.

(Also, I'm glad that Stardock is now clearly explained as being a steam curator, but I think the FfH group by Kael needs to be more clear or remove games that he's involved with to avoid confusion. I really hope none of the normal reviews are from members of Stardock, otherwise that would be a PR nightmare when it's discovered, and nothing remains secret forever.)

(p.s. I didn't make a new account to post here. My account is years old, I've posted over the years but moved on to other games and different communities because I felt the Devs didn't listen, or like anything but yes-men to post.)

[Edit]

Further, feel free to browse posts I've made. Lots of suggestions, mostly 4+ years ago. Quite a decent Karma:Post ratio that I'm proud of. I have one other post critical of Frogboy's PR - his attack on bad reviews of Elemental describing them thusly:

"The only thing that really frustrates us (and honestly is making my team less interested in reading the forums) are reading posts by people who don't have any idea what is involved in game development...they really have no idea what they're talking about...negative buzz by non-technical people"

 

This isn't new, it's history repeating itself and the link is Brad, not me, not un-technical idiots, trolls or douchebags. I don't think Frogboy should be giving interviews so carelessly, or posting and inciting hatred. It is very bad PR that hurts a good team of developers. If you're reading, run your words past someone first, speaking off-the-cuff is all well and good, but you need to be civil when doing so. You have a reputation to uphold. Also don't allow or encourage hostility or personal attacks on the forums, it makes them a very unfriendly place to visit and drives all but the die-hard fans away. It scares people, rightly so.

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October 10, 2014 8:57:01 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hmm.  I can understand the difficulty of this situation.  I'll see what develops.

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October 10, 2014 9:41:37 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Frankfurter, choosing to ascribe to yourself all the criticism of the steam forum is a bit much, don't you think? It's not all about you.

i don't even think you're a grognard.  I think, however, that your arrogance (as displayed in your post) makes your criticisms less valuable. You have little idea what the game's ultimate design is going to be and yet choose to judge it, harshly, on the first beta.

Stating that developers don't enjoy reading posts by people who passionately condemn something they know little about is nothing new. Yet, you act as if this is a failing of the developers.  

Ultimately, I have no faith that you are willing to give the game a fair shot. I don't even know why you bought it given your comments on FE:LH, a game that has very positive reviews. 

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October 10, 2014 10:09:44 AM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Frankfurter, choosing to ascribe to yourself all the criticism of the steam forum is a bit much, don't you think? It's not all about you.

i don't even think you're a grognard.  I think, however, that your arrogance (as displayed in your post) makes your criticisms less valuable. You have little idea what the game's ultimate design is going to be and yet choose to judge it, harshly, on the first beta.

Stating that developers don't enjoy reading posts by people who passionately condemn something they know little about is nothing new. Yet, you act as if this is a failing of the developers.  

Ultimately, I have no faith that you are willing to give the game a fair shot. I don't even know why you bought it given your comments on FE:LH, a game that has very positive reviews. 

I haven't actually read any swearing, insults or venom on the steam forums. (Comments, comparisons and chit-chat yes). So, I assumed (Wrongly?) that the comments here are referring to bad reviews. I can't talk about the rest but surely I'm justified in talking about the response to my words.

I do want to be able to update my review, especially after I get a chance to play the new beta. Please allow me that privilege.

Concerning labels like "grognard", "arrogance" and that I "have little idea what the game's ultimate design is going to be". Well, I wish you wouldn't keep putting words into my mouth, thoughts into my head or judging me as a person rather than responding to my words. If you are sure that I have no idea of your vision then can you expect anyone else to have a good idea of your vision either? fan or not. Whatever you may think of me, I still don't think you have the right to silence those who give criticism, nor should you ignore it so carelessly.

Treating passionate views as less important than the dispassionate many, (those that view the game and can't be bothered to say anything because it doesn't grip them in the slightest)... well that is folly, in my arrogant opinion. The same folly that occurred with Elemental. Hence my quote of previous dismay at your attack on critics.

I'm trying to say why it doesn't grip me. I don't think I should be punished for that. Or insulted, or judgements made about my proficiency, education or understanding. I review each game on its own merits, I have posted feedback in the past and even now. But feedback is for you, reviews are for the public.

A chef shouldn't be able to sell rotten fish without some comment, even if in a years time the dish of the day is vastly more palatable. I bought it because I love the vision. I comment because I firmly believe it isn't being reached. This is still a Beta, it shouldn't be flying off the shelves as quickly as a fully polished award-winning game. I'm not your enemy. I have no axe to grind and I'm not trying to harm you or Stardock. I just want to carry on. I want the game to be award-winning and I promise you, when I have fun playing it my review will change (if I'm allowed). But my comments here I will stand by. I think you're wrong to block negative reviews. I think you are being far too aggressive. I think you're putting people off your company by your actions.

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October 10, 2014 10:16:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I have no dog in this hunt but you seem to have a persecution complex.  No one has attacked you. 

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October 10, 2014 10:28:50 AM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

Quoting Dr Franknfurter,

I haven't actually read any swearing, insults or venom on the steam forums. (Comments, comparisons and chit-chat yes). So, I assumed (Wrongly?) that the comments here are referring to bad reviews. I can't talk about the rest but surely I'm justified in talking about the response to my words.


I do want to be able to update my review, especially after I get a chance to play the new beta. Please allow me that privilege.

Concerning labels like "grognard", "arrogance" and that I "have little idea what the game's ultimate design is going to be". Well, I wish you wouldn't keep putting words into my mouth, thoughts into my head or judging me as a person rather than responding to my words. If you are sure that I have no idea of your vision then can you expect anyone else to have a good idea of your vision either? fan or not. Whatever you may think of me, I still don't think you have the right to silence those who give criticism, nor should you ignore it so carelessly.

Treating passionate views as less important than the dispassionate many, (those that view the game and can't be bothered to say anything because it doesn't grip them in the slightest)... well that is folly, in my arrogant opinion. The same folly that occurred with Elemental. Hence my quote of previous dismay at your attack on critics.

I'm trying to say why it doesn't grip me. I don't think I should be punished for that. Or insulted, or judgements made about my proficiency, education or understanding. I review each game on its own merits, I have posted feedback in the past and even now. But feedback is for you, reviews are for the public.

A chef shouldn't be able to sell rotten fish without some comment, even if in a years time the dish of the day is vastly more palatable. I bought it because I love the vision. I comment because I firmly believe it isn't being reached. This is still a Beta, it shouldn't be flying off the shelves as quickly as a fully polished award-winning game. I'm not your enemy. I have no axe to grind and I'm not trying to harm you or Stardock. I just want to carry on. I want the game to be award-winning and I promise you, when I have fun playing it my review will change (if I'm allowed). But my comments here I will stand by. I think you're wrong to block negative reviews. I think you are being far too aggressive. I think you're putting people off your company by your actions.

 

While I certainly don't like your review, don't find it accurate or fair, I highly doubt people here are thinking about it or you.  It certainly wasn't your responses that made me disengage with the Steam forums.

Re the review itself, I checked out the flag.  Yarlen flagged it.  Here's why:

[Major Caveat: In Brad/Frogboy/Draginol's words I am a 'Grognard'. Not some French word for troll but it means one of the 'old guard' of gamer who cares about game mechanics more than presentation. Maybe he's right. Maybe I am quibbling over the mechanics and not enjoying the art. Maybe strategy gamers are a vocal minority. So, to blunt the 'insulting harshness' of the review I'll start with, as perhaps I should have done before: the plus-points.]

This is a direct misrepresentation of the discussion. Stardock games are known for their strong game mechanics. Sorcerer King is no exception.  I never said you were a grognard. I talked about the general idea of the type of groganrd who wants endless switches and dials and levers on their games rather than more focused game design.  It's the reason grognards didn't like Civilization V but it was fantastically popular with everyone else.

Point being: Your review starts out with an incorrect and insulting statement and attributes it to me personally.  Don't play the grognard card. Don't personalize your negative assertions (aka don't make personal attacks).

You also, with 5 hours of gameplay, write a "review" that acts as if you know what the game is about.  That's certainly your right though.

You also insult us in the review (we're not "friendly" developers).

If you could just get over yourself for just a minute and read the things you write. For someone who dishes out heaps of criticism you have distinctly thin skin.

I'll ask Yarlen to unflag your review and keep Valve from removing it if you take out the personal attacks from it.  If you want to review a game, even negatively, stick to the game. Don't make it personal. 

 

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October 10, 2014 10:32:50 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Guys, I think it's a good idea to focus on issues discussed in the review. Please don't reduce this to personal stuff. It's not worth your nerves, really. And wasting time for this will hurt the game itself - less talk about game mechanics, more talk about who called whom grognard (I mean, really?).

So to the point:

Quoting Dr Franknfurter,
The game has the same strange bugs and mechanics that have lingered in every Stardock game for the past few years, some engine or coding error that gets repeated verbatim in each new product. One example (of many) is Movement quirks: pass deletes moves, grouping units deleting moves, max moves increases often fail to take effect etc. and this oddity is in Elemental to Gal Civ 3, never fixed, never noticed.

Do you guys agree with it? (I'm not sure if I understand "pass deletes moves".)

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October 10, 2014 10:46:36 AM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

Quoting Gandhialf,

(I'm not sure if I understand "pass deletes moves".)

I think this refers to the point that passing your turn skips your turn for that round. Think some people want to push their turn to the back of the line, but the way initiative works, there really is no such thing as the end of the line.

I think the complaint and the requested change is to actually change the mechanics of the game.

To which, I disagree. I like the way it works now. It was much worse when units in front would block your higher initiative units from going forward, but now that you can move through their space, I see no real problems. I believe (possibly mistakenly, if so, please correct me) people want the enemy to move forward and then be able to use all their moves to be able to attack first. Basically gaming the already stressed AI. Not a complaint against the AI, the human brain still has a great advantage against all but the most advanced AI, and not just video game AI, but any AI.

It could also be people just not understanding the initiative system.

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October 10, 2014 10:54:02 AM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

I took a quick peek at the Steam forums this morning out of morbid curiosity - kind of like internet rubber necking on the information super highway. Anyway, things seem to have leveled out a bit and I saw quite a few informational/positive posts in the first couple of pages.

Maybe some of them are coming around?

Edit: On a totally unrelated note - I absolutely agree that the ability for units to pass through tiles occupied by other friendly units is a great change to tactical combat and does make the initiative system work much more smoothly. Any chance that could be back-updated to FE:LH?

 

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October 10, 2014 11:01:56 AM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

Thank you for offering to unflag it. I would have appreciated an opportunity to remove the offending passage, or to defend my reason for wanting to keep it. I'm willing to remove the grognard section, but not the unfriendly developer opinion. I don't think that can be classed 'insulting'.

Concerning play-time, its longer than you spend on a movie, but it's also priced much higher. Also are you angry at positive reviews with play-times below mine? It would be very hard indeed to rack-up 100 hours as anything other than a developer, even the biggest supporters haven't played much more than twice as long as me.

I still defend the use of 'grognard', I could have expanded the quote but the review does have a character limit. A longer passage such as this may have kept the original intention better, but I'm willing to remove it entirely.

“I couldn't help but think of your review because you represent what we would traditionally call the "core" audience. That is, the upper 10% or so of the gaming audience that is distinct from the other 90% in what they want out of a game.

That 10% is much more likely to write reader reviews and lobby for features that very few people actually use (multiplayer, hard core grognard stuff <I'm a grognard so don't take this as a criticism,>, endless knobs and stats thrown at the user.”

Either way I certainly feel I cannot possibly remove the unfriendly developers comment. It is an opinion, I don't think anyone has a friendliest developer survey that I can quote for this game... but even if there was such a survey your actions: calling reviewer arrogant, dismissing suggestions... that isn't, in my opinion, friendly.

 

Gandhialf - I was referring to the inability to undo actions. Many things are instant (spells, building, item transport) and they simply change the game, rather like using cheats. Pass, for example doesn't skip that unit it simply sets the current movement points to 0. This seems like the same thing, but it means that instead of pass being functionally similar to a 'wait' command, allowing you to look at city or upgrade a unit first it is instead a 'mess up your plans' button. It's a little thing. Just one tiny example of what annoyed me. I posted a long list of ideas and suggestions, perhaps someone here would care to read them and pass on the better ones. I think they'll take more notice if they come from you than from me after all this pain.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/241990/discussions/1/613938693090210539/

It's rather long. And incomplete, but I was trying to be helpful. I also hoped to edit the review and link to that discussion. Making comments about what annoying things have been fixed or if they are still annoying in the current build.

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October 10, 2014 11:17:32 AM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

Quoting Dr Franknfurter,

Pass, for example doesn't skip that unit it simply sets the current movement points to 0. This seems like the same thing, but it means that instead of pass being functionally similar to a 'wait' command,

Ah, yes this is different than what I was posting about earlier. This is in reference to strategic view, rather than the tactical I was talking about. I'd definitely love to see a wait command, although using 'tab' does seem to accomplish this I believe (amongst units only, not amongst other tasks (city, spell research, champ/sov level-ups, etc.)

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October 10, 2014 11:21:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Leo in WI,


Quoting Dr Franknfurter,

Pass, for example doesn't skip that unit it simply sets the current movement points to 0. This seems like the same thing, but it means that instead of pass being functionally similar to a 'wait' command,



Ah, yes this is different than what I was posting about earlier. This is in reference to strategic view, rather than the tactical I was talking about. I'd definitely love to see a wait command, although using 'tab' does seem to accomplish this I believe (amongst units only, not amongst other tasks (city, spell research, champ/sov level-ups, etc.)

Yeah, if you (Dr Franknfurter) are talking about tactical combat - I agree with Leo in WI that it's conscious design decision. If you are talking about strategic map - yes, it's something that definitely should be fixed.

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October 10, 2014 11:26:17 AM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

Using tab is a work-around for pass not working as one would expect, or desire. I say it's the same in GalCiv3 the pass button doesn't skip that unit in it simply sets current moves to 0. Hence my comment about code being repeated from game to game.

Perhaps it's completely different code by completely different people for entirely different reasons. But I thought it was an oversight, an obvious issue that you'd notice on turn 1 on each game but hasn't been seen as an issue.

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October 10, 2014 11:28:15 AM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

Grognard or not, I personally find it sad that the majority "90%", prefer  games that are over-simplified, and spoon feeds them.

 

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October 10, 2014 11:30:16 AM from Sorcerer King Forums Sorcerer King Forums

I'd certainly fight that 90% statistic. Any statement like that applies to very strict criteria: Who was asked, when, what did you ask them?

I think the number is very unlikely to be accurate. If it is, how does it translate to sales and repeat-customers? Are the 90% likely to be repeat customers do you think?

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