My suggestion for the next E:LH DLC. Expanded Combat!

By on April 23, 2014 12:32:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

tjashen

Join Date 03/2009
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So, it'll probably be a bit before we see the next iteration of Elemental, and I've been (like others here) noting the numerous comments about things that Elemental could do better.

I think that an Expanded Combat DLC makes a lot of sense.  Some aspects of improved Combat options actually shouldn't be all that hard to implement, and I'm sure there are a number of ideas for new combat abilities and such that could be incorporated into such a DLC.

So let's talk about some things that I think could be implemented fairly easily on the design end.

 

1) Formations and Stack Order. 

I've posted about this before.  One complaint about Elemental is that you can't influence how units are ranked (from 1 to 9) in a stack.  The game has an algorithm that decides in which order units will be 'ranked'.  This becomes important because on various tactial maps, the initial placement squares are essentially 'numbered', with units being placed in the order they appear in their stack, into those numbered placement squares (i.e. first unit goes in square 1, second sqare 2, etc.).

If a player could simply 'drag and drop' units into a new order ranking, then you could influence placement more directly.  Different tactical maps have different configurations for their start squares, so this still mixes things up a bit, but at least you'd have a little more direct control over this situation.

Here's the graphic I've previously used to illustrate this:

Formations suggestion

 

Picking stack formations could perhaps be accomplished with a widget to the right of the stack display:

formation picker

 

To expand on this, imagine that maps were each designed with 15 placement squares, which correspond to the 'formation option widget'.  The formation would assign the (up to 9) unit slots to 9 of the 15 placement squares, based on the formation config.  Ignore the Line Abreast above for the purposes of this discussion.

Imagine the following Grid being used as the template for a typical map placement. Row 3 (A-E) is aligned towards the middle of the map, and Row 3  (L-P) is oriented towards one edge/side of the map

A B C D E

F G H J K

L M N P Q

In the case of a Reverse Wedge, positions 1 through 9 would be assigned to/placed as follows: 1-N, 2-H, 3-G, 4-J, 5-C, 6-B, 7-D, 8-A, 9-E. Or...

8A 6B 5C 7D 9E

--  3G 2H 4J --

--  --  1N -- --

2 Lines would be assigned to/placed as follows: 1-H, 2-C, 3-G, 4-B, 5-J, 6-D, 7-F, 8-A, 9-E

However, on a map with terrain restrictions, for the sake of argument let's assume that, due to blocked terrain on either side, the starting squares are actually oriented as follows:

A B C

D E F G

H J K L

M N

P Q

So said Reverse Wedge would thus be initially placed as follows:

8A 6B 5C

7D 9E -- 3G

2H 4J -- --

-- 1N

-- --

Essentially, in this case the flanks are 'pushed back' from the front row into the second row, and the formation is disrupted.

To keep players on their toes a bit, map files could have multiple instances, with the same terrain but different initial placements...

City Maps would of course have more placement squares (R-Z), with the city defenders being assigned to placement squares R-Z.  Map designers would of course have decided in advance where squares R-Z should be situated.

Hopefully I've illustrated how this could be done adequately.

 

2) More battlefield maps!

We can always use new and interesting tactical maps, so an Expanded Combat DLC is the perfect place to introduce more maps.

 

3) New Combat Abilities

As above, new cool attacks/abilities/spells could be introduced here.  New talents, new combat options to pick from, unique weapons with special combat options, etc.  As an example: Catapults might gain some new ordinance options, such as burning barrels that splash on impact, hitting the adjacent squares with a fiery attack.  Trojan Horses to lob at the Sovereign (couldn't resist).  Lots of ideas can be introduced here!

 

4) Siege Mechanics

Essentially, this would introduce walls to tactical city maps and such, with a gate or some such included in the map.  Attackers would normally appear outside the walls (unless they pulled a Trojan Horse or some such), with Defenders inside the city walls.  Some wall sections, and certainly the gate, could be attackable/damaged/destroyed with Siege Weapons and Spells, as well as perhaps more blunt methods (beating the gate down with a giant club).  Attackers will need to breach or scale the walls to attack the city.  A 'scale the walls' mechanic of some sort would need to be introduced.  Fliers would essentially ignore/fly over walls, hence making flight more useful in tactical combat.

Defense towers could be incorporated into the walls as well.  Someone recently made a cool tower model for their mod, imagine a couple of those incorporated into the city wall.

Walls could be easily scaleable from the rear (think stairs), so defenders could stand on the walls, behind the battlements (battlements would provide a defensive bonus to those standing on the wall squares, from one direction of course!)

Walls might also have other 'active defense' options, such as a tub of boiling oil sitting atop the gate square.  Defenders stacked in the gate square could dump oil every so many turns or some such.

Moats could be fun... see terrain types below.

 

5) Line of sight mechanics for ranged attacks, range and LOS impairment modifiers.

This would be a little more involved to implement coding wise, but certainly would be an appropriate addition to such a DLC.

 

6) More terrain types in tactical combat, with terrain modifiers.

Imagine a unit using a group of trees as cover against ranged and other attacks.  Units wading through shallow fords, slowing their movement across the battlefield.  Lots of cool ideas here that could be included.

 

7) A mechanic to allow additional attackers to participate in city sieges.

With the addition of city walls giving defenders an added advantage, some mechanic would need to be worked out to allow more units to attack cities.  This could be as simple as 'up to two stacks may attack a city simultaneously', with a dialogue appearing when the first stack 'moves' on the city noting additional stacks next to the city, where you pick a second stack to join in.  I.E.: if 3 or more stacks are adjacent, you'd be given a list of the stacks you have to choose from in the popup dialogue box, and pick one.

 

8) New creatures/units.

New and interesting creatures are always welcome, so some combat-oriented ones, perhaps with cool new combat abilities to boot, would be very appropriate for this.

 

9) Facings (Front/Flank/Rear), diagonal attack modifiers.

Units would attack other units directly in the square in front of them as usual.  Attacking one of your adjacent (FL/FR) front squares might carry a 'to hit' penalty (-4 to hit?).  Flanks are a little easier to hit (+2 to hit?), rear squares more easily hit (+4 to hit?).  The swarm mechanic would of course have to be tweaked/nerfed appropriately if flank/rear attacks have attack bonuses already.

Units could stand facing a square edge, or perhaps a square corner.  Front, Front Left/Right, Side and Rear would be situated as follows:

FL   F   FR

S     S

R    R   R

or

 

        F

   FL      FR

S            S

   R        R

        R

 

 

 

Facing would be determined at the end of movement (normally the direction you were travelling, or facing the square you attack at the end of the move), with perhaps some keystroke to assign a different facing (i.e. turn my unit Left or Right 45 degrees, with the facing rotating 45 degrees with each keystroke).

 

---

 There are a lot of cool ideas that could be incorporated into such a DLC, and if it had enough 'meat', would certainly be something a lot of Elemental players would be excited to purchase. 

Well, there are some of my suggestions for a cool DLC to tide us Elemental players over for a bit, should Stardock wish to do something along these lines in the coming months.  Feel free to add your own suggestions!

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April 25, 2014 2:09:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Awesome work!  

 

Would love to see improved militia techs in the warfare tree

 

Unique city defenders (gotta try that mod... so many mods, so little time!) 

 

Heroes or sovs that have a sapper skill

 

An improved version of Krax fortification ability for defending the capital of a nation.

 

 

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April 25, 2014 5:33:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Would be very interesting to see this tackled....but I'm quite sure SD wouldn't do it as a DLC. It would be an update if it's going to happen....so who knows...maybe in LH 2.0 ?

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April 25, 2014 9:59:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Several times I have made  similar suggestions, (and some different suggestions) several years ago.  It seems that SD is committed to the queuing of combat unit orders via the initiative mechanism.  My focus was on conditional orders that would be implemented by AI (like melee unit stand fast =defend, ranged unit volley against unit that closes with it, mounted unit charge enemy unit (or wait until enemy unit closes within X spaces, then charge.  All orders would be issued at start of each turn, then AI would implement them in order of initiative of each unit.  Many players like the ideas, but SD never responded, nor have they indicated any interest in such a scheme.  I give you great credit for excellent work.  Am hopeful, but I think SD is committed to its "each unit acts via initiative queue;" (seen on left side of battle screen.)  I hope they listen to you. 

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April 26, 2014 7:34:25 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'd imagine that, depending on the amount of work that went into the code, that this would be a bit more expensive than your usual DLC.  This would be worth a lot more gameplay wise than the latest DLC release.  This would be more of an 'expansion' than a simple DLC, but could still be released under the DLC model, and should not require a rework of the rest of the game to implement.

Anyone that has played Hero System (pen & paper) should sort of recognize the current initiative system.  I don't think the current system per se is an insurmountable problem, but, due to the low move values, has some interesting anomolies.  I.E. sword units move farther in say 20 rounds than do axemen, despite both weapons perhaps weighing nearly the same, because swordsmen get more 'action rounds' to move.

The Hero System balanced this out due to the point system used to purchase stats and skills.  I.E. a high 'speed' came at the expense of say movement, strength, etc.  The current Elemental system attempts to balance this out via damage stats (attack, attack modifiers).

The original Elemental (back when we had stats) also sort of had this balanced.  Initiative came from a stat, that you spent stat points on.  So if you were focusing point on the speed stat, well those points weren't being spent elsewhere.

Also, Encumberance provided a way to balance heavy weapons and armor against other configurations.  The current system has 'subsumed' these into the trait tree, which I don't think is the ideal solution, although Derek and the Stardock team obviously disagree.

A 'hybrid', for those whom are fans of side a moves then side b moves, is keeping the initiative 'ranking' system, but divorcing it from movement.  I.E. one side moves, other side reacts, attacks are resolved in order of initiative, then the other side moves, the first side reacts, and again attacks are resolved.  The phasing player gets a bonus to his initiative, to give his units a higher chance of attacking first.

On two points (stats and encumberance), I could harp on those further, but in my own assessment, that would be counter-productive at this point, as I'd like to see a lot of OTHER features added to combat as well.  We've all been wanting Siege mechanics for a while, and I for one would love to see it ingame.

 

SOOOO, I'm thinking that we should suggest ways to improve the current system.  If the Combat DLC makes combat more compelling and interesting, and improves the game, we all win.  If enough of us indicate that we WANT a more intricate and detailed combat system, we are more likely to see a Stardock that is willing to invest in that ( the risk/return calculation will look more compelling to them).

So, if you'd like to see more intricate combat in E:LH, now's a good time to throw out your suggestions, and help get the Stardockians excited about it!

 

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April 26, 2014 9:17:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Personally after playing AOW3 flanking is too dominant in tactics.I would prefer flanking to be only used by mounted units.

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