Diplomacy A.I is a mess.

By on September 8, 2013 1:18:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ashbery76

Join Date 02/2002
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One minute peace and building good relations and the next turn a DOW.The diplomacy A.I makes it impossible to build relations with even so called good factions making diplomacy useless system..

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September 8, 2013 1:40:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think that's scheduled for a future patch.  It is something that needs to be fixed for the sake of immersion.

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September 8, 2013 2:10:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I would like more "block" diplomacy, where you can manage good relations with one faction and their friends at the cost of their enemies etc. It shouldn't be easy to please everyone

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September 8, 2013 2:40:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Another thing that puzzles me is the ease in which the A.I can get third party empires to declare war.The resources needed for the human player make it hard to do,so are they cheating it I wonder.

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September 9, 2013 11:48:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


It just seems kind of random.   I had the AI just up and declare war on a whim.  Then you can be sure that some other factions will join in on the fun too! 

 

One thing in Civ was if you noticed a large group of units headed your way you could guess that they were going to declare war when they go to your borders.   Here the AI just seems to declare war then some 100 turns later a force shows up?

 

It's also easy to click the "declare war" button on accident I think in the diplomacy screen.   There should be a warning: "Are you sure?" or something no?

 

 

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September 9, 2013 12:15:40 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Once again I'm very surprised how things are turning out.

 

I'm a  big Galactic civ 2 players. I've always thought the diplomacy and AI was very good in that game.

 

Same company and boom all the good stuff is out the window. I can understand that both games are not the same but still some of it does seems similar. I can't see diplomacy being all that different.

 

I hope this is just a question of time issue that will be resolved later.

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September 9, 2013 12:20:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

you probably missed the last journal entry from 4 days ago:

http://forums.elementalgame.com/448105/page/1/

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September 9, 2013 8:17:54 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think this game was purposely skewed toward war. Remember the original game's subtitle, War Of Magic. Notice the empire vs. kingdom paradigm and how the empires are set up to be always less willing to make peace.  

The war/no war diplomacy is in part by design, so comparing it to Civ or Galciv 2 may be apples vs. oranges. 

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September 10, 2013 4:00:41 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yeah, bearing in mind the struggle to get the main part of the game (i.e. warfare, magic and questing) working, it's unsurprising the diplomacy side is correctly underdeveloped. Stardock have explicitly stated it's one of the things they want to rework in the next two signficant releases though.

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September 10, 2013 3:42:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

What annoys me is when a faction declares war which isn't even close to your borders. Often another faction actually sits between your empire and that of the enemy. So you get this constant, "I declare war!", then 20 turns later "let's make peace!" cycle with no actual contact or even the possibility of contact as the empire in the middle won't let you pass.

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September 10, 2013 5:07:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Nah, from the way I see it.

 

If you're a weak kingdom, empires will dow you fast but kingdoms will help you out for abit however if you continue to be weak they will come to dislike you too because you're weak and will help make empire stronger so they dow you to take ur lands. Vice versa for Empires too.

 

But to put it simply, if you're weak, you will have enemies.

 

If you're strong like 1st place or 2nd place on power, kingdoms and empires will kiss ur butt and offer you tribute without you lifting a finger.

 

Getting tribute is really unusual experience for me, I'm used to civ AI

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September 11, 2013 8:59:34 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Like in Warlords, like in Europa Universalis, when human player becomes strong all AI sides unite and attack human player! In Age of Wonders it was not be possible to have even peace if your alignments were opposite.

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September 11, 2013 1:57:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting webusver,

Like in Warlords, like in Europa Universalis, when human player becomes strong all AI sides unite and attack human player! In Age of Wonders it was not be possible to have even peace if your alignments were opposite.

 

The problem here is the factions are not so different.   They're all mostly humans just going about their business in different ways with different affinities for magic.   I don't get that any of the empire factions are EVIL really.   Maybe the trogs and little bit the wraiths who are just kinda elves.  Magnar have slaves! but if you called their ability something else who would know that they are evil?  They seem pretty benign to me.

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September 11, 2013 4:37:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting smeagolheart,

Quoting webusver, reply 11
Like in Warlords, like in Europa Universalis, when human player becomes strong all AI sides unite and attack human player! In Age of Wonders it was not be possible to have even peace if your alignments were opposite.

 

The problem here is the factions are not so different.   They're all mostly humans just going about their business in different ways with different affinities for magic.   I don't get that any of the empire factions are EVIL really.   Maybe the trogs and little bit the wraiths who are just kinda elves.  Magnar have slaves! but if you called their ability something else who would know that they are evil?  They seem pretty benign to me.

 

According to this post here:

http://forums.stardock.com/419942/page/2/

Resoln(Wraiths) is supposed to be neutral, but yeah I agree with you generally, while strides have been made in differentiating the factions their personalities are still somewhat similar in my opinion, Im certainly not getting the neutral, good, or evil vibes from anyone.

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September 11, 2013 4:43:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Polistes,

 According to this post here:

http://forums.stardock.com/419942/page/2/

Resoln(Wraiths) is supposed to be neutral, but yeah I agree with you generally, while strides have been made in differentiating the factions their personalities are still somewhat similar in my opinion, Im certainly not getting the neutral, good, or evil vibes from anyone.

I would never have guessed the alignments match those factions.   I thought Resoln was supposed to be evil because of the spiders and wraiths and stuff but I was wrong.

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September 12, 2013 1:40:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting smeagolheart,
The problem here is the factions are not so different.

Actually all races should try to win and try to prevent another player from wining, no matter how different or similar they are. I hope some of my notes may be considered in the 1.4/1.5 wishlist.

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September 12, 2013 10:00:38 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think it's unfair to call the factions similar. They may look similar by city graphics, but play style and strategy varies significantly based on what traits you take. Don't forget abilities given by blood type, too.

If you think the factions are the same, I have to wonder how many different factions you have actually played. Or, you are custom designing heavily, which allows you to mix much of the faction/race-specific uniqueness, which is no fault of the designer that provided you with 10 unique factions to play with.

Just because they are all human doesn't mean they are the same. Those who feel factions aren't differentiatied, I think should consider what set of expectations they have coming into the game. Fantasy does not necessarily require non-humanoid entities.

 

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September 13, 2013 12:02:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Again

Quoting webusver,

Quoting smeagolheart, reply 12The problem here is the factions are not so different.

Actually all races should try to win and try to prevent another player from wining, no matter how different or similar they are. I hope some of my notes may be considered in the 1.4/1.5 wishlist.

 

yeah this.   They are all sovereigns thrust upon the world - of a humanoid shaped race - determined to win Elemental at all costs.   The details of how they go about this varies a little bit.   They are all not so different - sure the kingdoms get a different cutscene when they build their first city than an empire but soon enough they are all put in politics with similar expectations by other factions.

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September 13, 2013 12:07:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting webusver,
[quote who="webusver" reply="15" id="3395530"]Actually all races should try to win and try to prevent another player from wining, no matter how different or similar they are. I hope some of my notes may be considered in the 1.4/1.5 wishlist.


Quoting smeagolheart,
yeah this.   They are all sovereigns thrust upon the world - of a humanoid shaped race - determined to win Elemental at all costs.   The details of how they go about this varies a little bit.   They are all not so different - sure the kingdoms get a different cutscene when they build their first city than an empire but soon enough they are all put in politics with similar expectations by other factions.

Frogboy addressed this in the Play to Win AI's vs Fun AI's. They do not follow this logic cause it would be annoying and not very fun for the human player. Also your suggestions makes diplomacy redundant, since everyone would just gang up on the big dog to prevent him from winning. So the key is providing a fun challenge, without going into the annoying part.

Lots of what we humans do to diplomacy etc. would be considered broken if an AI did the same to you. This is why the AI gets "cheats" and you do not

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