Please consider changing/updating the summoner path in 1.4.

By on August 23, 2013 10:16:19 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Borg999

Join Date 02/2006
+53

I know this has been requested before by others, but now that 1.3 is done, I’m hoping you may consider this for 1.4.

I almost always choose the path that increases spell mastery and spell damage. It is currently, IMO, the best option for increasing my sovereign’s power.

I've tried the summon path, but it's just underpowered. I end up using the summoned creatures as distractions/glass tigers which is useful at the begining, but as the game progresses, they are killed in a single turn, making them not worth the manna, and not much of a distraction.

I propose two paths. A main path that summons the monster itself, and a secondary path that increases the level and number of units summoned.

Also, the "base" strength of the monsters summoned should increase with each level gained. or at least keep pace with the progression of a typical game.

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August 23, 2013 10:40:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Hi Borg, if the spell mastery/damage path is the strongest in the game, I would argue that the summoner path is the second strongest.  Personally, I tend to shy away from summoner path because I know if I take it, it's an automatic win for me.  If I'm playing the harder levels, then it's definitely a must.  Maybe it's the way you're using the summons.  You mentioned you are using them as distractions... while that's a strategy for some battles, the summons can be much more than that.  All of the summons have a special ability when you summon them.  Make sure you're summoning in the right place to take advantage of that extra bonus.

Ice Elemental and Ignys are rather useless, but the others are terrific.  The healing power of wisps is amazing.  The wisp should be strategically summoned as a permanent unit.  The Air Elemental is a one-man wrecking crew.  Early to mid-game, I keep a strategically summoned Air Elemental permanently in my stack.  In the late game, I tactically summon the Air Elemental because he blows all the units down in the surrounding tiles where he gets summoned.  Summon him next to stack of archers and they all fall down... not to mention he has an ability where we can blow three more units down himself after that.  Cast your Crag Spawn tactically near a bunch of units and then just spam stinking mud to keep their movement to 1 tile.  Then let your ranged units pick them off one by one.  Strategically cast an Earth Elemental and it will never die.  Tactically cast Grave Elemental near the troops you have and all of those troops will be resurrected if they die in battle.

The only thing that should happen (and I hope that Derek isn't reading this) is that Summon Ignys (weak) and Summon Air Elemental (strong) should be switched in the trait tree.

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August 23, 2013 10:52:19 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Hi Trojasmic,

I use them as distractions, because that's all they seem to be good for. They don't seem to be much of a challenge mid to late game for the monsters/stacks encountered.

I will try to use them more strategically based on your suggestions.

But c'mon, wouldn't it be cool to to summon a stack of ice elementals? 

Quoting Trojasmic,

Hi Borg, if the spell mastery/damage path is the strongest in the game, I would argue that the summoner path is the second strongest.  Personally, I tend to shy away from summoner path because I know if I take it, it's an automatic win for me.  If I'm playing the harder levels, then it's definitely a must.  Maybe it's the way you're using the summons.  You mentioned you are using them as distractions... while that's a strategy for some battles, the summons can be much more than that.  All of the summons have a special ability when you summon them.  Make sure you're summoning in the right place to take advantage of that extra bonus.

Ice Elemental and Ignys are rather useless, but the others are terrific.  The healing power of wisps is amazing.  The wisp should be strategically summoned as a permanent unit.  The Air Elemental is a one-man wrecking crew.  Early to mid-game, I keep a strategically summoned Air Elemental permanently in my stack.  In the late game, I tactically summon the Air Elemental because he blows all the units down in the surrounding tiles where he gets summoned.  Summon him next to stack of archers and they all fall down... not to mention he has an ability where we can blow three more units down himself after that.  Cast your Crag Spawn tactically near a bunch of units and then just spam stinking mud to keep their movement to 1 tile.  Then let your ranged units pick them off one by one.  Strategically cast an Earth Elemental and it will never die.  Cast Grave Elemental near the troops you have and all of those troops will be resurrected if they die in battle.

The only thing that should happen (and I hope that Derek isn't reading this) is that Summon Ignys (weak) and Summon Air Elemental (strong) should be switched.

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August 23, 2013 10:55:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Trojasmic,


Hi Borg, if the spell mastery/damage path is the strongest in the game, I would argue that the summoner path is the second strongest...

Well said, the summons are all great - if you know the benefits of summoning them tactically. I think the main issue is that the trait descriptions for these summon traits don't mention the benefits when cast in tactical. If players could mouse over and see these effects, investing in summoning would have its benefits clear from the start. 

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August 23, 2013 12:59:15 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Ok, so I take it by the 50 views and 3 replies that everyone thinks that the summon path is fine as is?

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August 23, 2013 1:48:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Summoner and Evoker should be separate paths. 

 

The two paths should have some generic mage stuff in common - a summoner should get an evokation option or two but their path line should focus on summoning things and supporting and buffing their summons.

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August 23, 2013 2:34:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Currently I am playing with the Wizards and Demons mod which gives a separate summoner class.  I think that mod has it nailed really close to right.  Currently, I think the mod has the summons a little too powerful, but ultimately, it is really fun, since I want to have monsters in my army.   I would be all for Stardock to take another look at summons and improve them.

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August 23, 2013 3:55:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Murteas,

Currently I am playing with the Wizards and Demons mod which gives a separate summoner class.  I think that mod has it nailed really close to right.  Currently, I think the mod has the summons a little too powerful, but ultimately, it is really fun, since I want to have monsters in my army.   I would be all for Stardock to take another look at summons and improve them.

+1, but I'm perfectly satisfied with the mod too. Abob is gonna release an updated version soon that's gonna make it even better. 

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August 24, 2013 6:17:02 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Borg999 - my mod Demons and Wizards does pretty much all of the stuff you've mentioned here.  So yeah I agree with you, I didn't like the current Mage path at all.  Obviously i'm biased but I think the new Mage path and new Summoner path in my mod are way more fun than the default Mage path.   

 

Quoting Murteas,
Currently, I think the mod has the summons a little too powerful,

In the current version the Summoner path is definitely overpowered.  v0.3 is ready now and it tones down the core Summoner Path and tweaks a heap of stuff for balance.  I'll have it up in a couple of days once I check it against LH 1.3.

 

 

What we really need from Stardock is to get the AI to better use summons, particularly tactical summons as mentioned in this thread:

http://forums.elementalgame.com/447685/page/1/#3391128

 

 

 

 

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August 24, 2013 11:29:43 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The Summoner path is very powerful. Granted, that's only because of one unit, the Air Elemental. Summon it strategically and never let it die, as it's (lightning!) damage and initiative go up every level. Combined with Wisp/Lightbringer or 9 Skellies for a powerful army.

The other summons are not so great. The Ice Elemental is ok, but everything after the Air Elemental could use a buff.

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August 24, 2013 2:48:54 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

As mentioned, I strongly feel the evoker and summoner should be different paths.  apparently from tthe support thread the AI is bugged and never summons anything.

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August 30, 2013 10:48:31 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I finished a game where, after reaching level 5, I b-lined the summoner path.

I used Trojamic's suggestions utilizing the summoned creatures special abilities, but they didn't seem all that usufull.  Sure the turn I summon them, I can use the special effect, but it usually doen't help to "turn the tide" of the battle, and the targets can often resist. A big disadvantage seems to be their initiative. Even if I cast haste on them, by the time they get a chance to take their turn, the battle is just about over.

So finally, I got to the end of the summon branch and was able to summon the pyre of man...for a measly 3 turns. IMO, that is underpowered for the level you've achieved by then, and the monsters or AI stacks you'll encounter late game.

I still think it's a better return on investment to go up the general magic tree to get to spells like tornado or Vet's howl.

Just my 2 cents.

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August 30, 2013 10:53:01 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Borg999,

I finished a game where, after reaching level 5, I b-lined the summoner path.

I used Trojamic's suggestions utilizing the summoned creatures special abilities, but they didn't seem all that usufull.  Sure the turn I summon them, I can use the special effect, but it usually doen't help to "turn the tide" of the battle, and the targets can often resist. A big disadvantage seems to be their initiative. Even if I cast haste on them, by the time they get a chance to take their turn, the battle is just about over.

So finally, I got to the end of the summon branch and was able to summon the pyre of man...for a measly 3 turns. IMO, that is underpowered for the level you've achieved by then, and the mosters or AI stacks you'll encounter late game.

I still think it's a better return on investment to go up the general magic tree to get to spells like tornado or Vet's howl.

Just my 2 cents.

Did you use Crag spawn at all? Grave elementals?

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August 30, 2013 11:15:21 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting davrovana,



Did you use Crag spawn at all? Grave elementals?

I used all of them with the exception of the crag's.

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August 30, 2013 11:32:02 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Borg999,


Quoting davrovana, reply 12


Did you use Crag spawn at all? Grave elementals?


I used all of them with the exception of the crag's.

Not sure if it'd change your overall opinion of summoning, but for me crag is easily the best. one crag spawn can tie up almost a whole army after one action - mages/archers can then prey on targets at leisure. 

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August 31, 2013 5:17:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting davrovana,


Quoting Trojasmic, reply 1

Hi Borg, if the spell mastery/damage path is the strongest in the game, I would argue that the summoner path is the second strongest...

Well said, the summons are all great - if you know the benefits of summoning them tactically. I think the main issue is that the trait descriptions for these summon traits don't mention the benefits when cast in tactical. If players could mouse over and see these effects, investing in summoning would have its benefits clear from the start. 

yeah, I would like to see this fixed in the next patch.

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September 30, 2013 11:29:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Air Elemental is too powerful. It is fast, high initiative and elemental (lighting, considering most roaming mobs don't have high magic resist and some are immune to physical attack; same to ice elemental, but its initiative is too low, use its attack as a free slow spell) melee attack and can be reached very early in the summoner-tree.

It is very useful if you want to rush enemy's town in the early game too, because of its elemental attack.

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