[Lore/World Question] Squares

By on June 11, 2013 9:05:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

halmal242

Join Date 05/2008
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How large are tactical squares in size of feet/meters and how large are strategic squares in miles/km?  This is just something I have been curious if there is an actual answer or is it just arbitrary. Nothing game breaking here I am just curious.

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June 11, 2013 1:13:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't know if it were actually calculated, but given the size of the maps and the movement done in seasons, I would suggest that these squares are roughly 500 to 1000 miles (250000 - 1000000 sq miles), as this is a reasonable amount of terrain that on could walk within a season (by foot). So, every season you could travel roughly 1000 to 2000 miles.

Tactical battle wise the tile size is considerably smaller scale, and maybe something along the 10 yards (100 sq yards).

This of course is completely speculative and I've not really a clue on how big the map size. The above calculations is travelling roughly 20 miles in a day, and the tactical maps is purely speculative guess.

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June 11, 2013 2:04:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So as the earth has a circumference of about 25000 miles, and assuming the world of Elemental is about the same size for a normal world, you should be able to cross the entire map in about 13-16 seasons give or take due to terrain or roads.  This seems a little low and I think I see the reasoning behind the immersion mods change to weeks but this might be too drastic and I would propose a change to months instead based upon these numbers.

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June 11, 2013 2:24:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


The immersion mod was limited in the beginning. There can only be 4 seasons (period). Thus, the reason he went to weeks in the immersion mod (4 weeks in a month). But then the world size abstraction changes for the immersion mod completely. Mind you based on my calculations of travel of roughly 20 miles in a day, the tiles equate to roughly 500 - 1000 miles. That is assuming that there are 7 days in a week, and 13 weeks in a season. Take these same calculations for the immersion mod, 7 days in a week and the tile now is roughly 150 miles across. Makes the entire thing seem less epic altogether.

The world of elemental is not the same size as the earth, and a "medium" sized map is roughly 96 tiles across. So, if you take the lesser assumption that each tile is roughly 500 miles across, then you get that 48000 miles for the circumference. Even the small maps are roughly 80 tiles across. In essence by my abstraction and appropriate distance that can be moved within a season. You find the time and scale are off and not being considered by the game in a sense.

If you want to attribute that the "medium" size map is earth size, then you are looking at 96 tiles across should be roughly 25000 miles. Hence, do the division and you get each tile should be 260 miles. Hence, the immersion mod is basically spot on with that calculation in mind. Given limitations to the changing of the 4 seasons, weeks is an appropriate assumption here.

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June 11, 2013 2:24:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

edited: I'm too slow & no time to read the new posts... nothing to see here, folks!

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June 11, 2013 2:39:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Fallenchar,

A small group of people can travel 20 mph, but most medieval armies could not. So it also depends on how you see your units: as armies or as a small band of warriors.

A second dilemma are the roads: they provide 4x travel speed. You could argue that it's more accurate to calculate distances using the travel speed on roads. This would also downsize Parrotmath's humongous tile sizes somewhat

Parrotmath, we all love you, but your tiles are bigger than most modern countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_area

Admittedly, trying to use logic when talking about a fantasy game never did anyone any good. Just imagine the ruler of your country heading into the wilderness, traveling for years on end without any plan and without ever actually ruling...

True my calculations are based off of my hiking experience in the woods. I travelled roughly 20 miles in Mountainous terrain with no paths and climbing involved in a day. Well really 14 - 16 hour hike. (I guess I took a little extreme, for general travel) but I was taking into consideration of travel over a season with disregard to fatigue in the travel. But these countries could be traversed within a season, it's the time frame of a season that throws the calculations into a huge problem mix.

I suppose a more accurate assumption would be 12 miles in a day. I recall doing that comfortably in a harsh hiking environment (no cut trails, consistent mountain climbing) with a 70-100 pound pack. But this is assuming I had all the food I needed and didn't need to hunt along the way to ensure food would still be there. That would slow things down a bit and take more time to travel. But 13 weeks is a rather long time to travel 2 tiles on the map, and given the season traveled at the time it's not that far fetched to travel as far as I indicated.

Edit: Fallenchar you're argument puts up some valid points that I may have forgotten to consider. Also, a small group of people travel more around 5 mph (20mph is a run)

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June 11, 2013 3:59:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I googled how far a medieval army could march in a day. This was the result:

This might be a little complicated but here goes.  I am talking about long term marching - a couple of weeks or months in a row.  There are lots of cases when an army sprinted to be a specific point in time.  They are famous - just not typical.
 
On a good (probably Roman)  road, an army would be able to travel about three miles an hour for about 8 hours.  Remember that the camp was taken down in the morning and had to be set up in the evening before they lost the light.  this works out to about 25 miles a day. 
 
The previous number only works as long as the baggage train could keep up.  If the baggage train was based on ox carts, it was cut down significantly.  Until the use of the horse collar became common, an ox could pull a loaded wagon at two miles an hour for about five hours before becoming exhausted.  10 miles a day.
 
If they used horses / mules as draft animals, the speed increased but you need five horses / mules to replace two oxen.  Then the limiting factor is the speed of a walking man.  The horses could go about four miles an hour for about eight hours.  That makes 32 miles but the infantry could only go about 25 miles.  An all mounted force could go futher of course.
 
This is all based on decent roads and an army small enough to use one road, well equiped for travelling, well supplied.  Add some mud, taking time to forage, bad or no shoes, enemy action, etc. the number probbly drop back to 10 miles per day.


Keep in mind, if you're not using the roads, then you're probably not going to be marching that 20-25 miles in a day.


found my answer here: http://www.quora.com/Military-History-and-Wars-1/How-far-could-a-medieval-army-march-in-a-day

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June 11, 2013 4:03:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This makes it that the way done by the immersion mod for time/distance travel is right on or very close.  My only wonder now is whether the terrains have the appropriate modifier to travel times.  Plains being 1; woods, hills, and swamps being 1/2; and finally rivers killing all movement remaining.  Shouldn't it be more like; plains 1, woods 2, hills 3, swamps 4, river 5?  With roads changing it to .75 for any applied terrain instead of .5.  

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June 11, 2013 4:39:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting zakath71,

I googled how far a medieval army could march in a day. This was the result:


This might be a little complicated but here goes.  I am talking about long term marching - a couple of weeks or months in a row.  There are lots of cases when an army sprinted to be a specific point in time.  They are famous - just not typical.
 
On a good (probably Roman)  road, an army would be able to travel about three miles an hour for about 8 hours.  Remember that the camp was taken down in the morning and had to be set up in the evening before they lost the light.  this works out to about 25 miles a day. 
 
The previous number only works as long as the baggage train could keep up.  If the baggage train was based on ox carts, it was cut down significantly.  Until the use of the horse collar became common, an ox could pull a loaded wagon at two miles an hour for about five hours before becoming exhausted.  10 miles a day.
 
If they used horses / mules as draft animals, the speed increased but you need five horses / mules to replace two oxen.  Then the limiting factor is the speed of a walking man.  The horses could go about four miles an hour for about eight hours.  That makes 32 miles but the infantry could only go about 25 miles.  An all mounted force could go futher of course.
 
This is all based on decent roads and an army small enough to use one road, well equiped for travelling, well supplied.  Add some mud, taking time to forage, bad or no shoes, enemy action, etc. the number probbly drop back to 10 miles per day.





Keep in mind, if you're not using the roads, then you're probably not going to be marching that 20-25 miles in a day.




found my answer here: http://www.quora.com/Military-History-and-Wars-1/How-far-could-a-medieval-army-march-in-a-day

I liked this information. Good stuff. If you took closer look at my calculations I did it closer to 10 miles a day for travel when approximating my first lower estimate of 500 miles (really 455, but 10 miles... 8 miles... 13 miles... ) all about the same. when it comes to hiking, you stop when you find a good spot and the day has some light, so inevitably travel was slower in the winter than the summer months.

For game terms for my set-up just to be safe with things call it 400 miles across the square, but it is still a good distance to travel, and my high estimate of roughly 20 miles per day to get the roughly 1000 across is not too far fetched.

Quoting halmal242,
This makes it that the way done by the immersion mod for time/distance travel is right on or very close.  My only wonder now is whether the terrains have the appropriate modifier to travel times.  Plains being 1; woods, hills, and swamps being 1/2; and finally rivers killing all movement remaining.  Shouldn't it be more like; plains 1, woods 2, hills 3, swamps 4, river 5?  With roads changing it to .75 for any applied terrain instead of .5.  

This could work well to change some of these terrain types. For example, woods and hills I could call roughly the same movement (what every one chooses). Woods are relatively difficult to navigate safely, and hill terrain are just more exhausting travel. The swamps on the other hand should be heavier movement for the troops. Equating them with woods and hills is a bit too much (but it is easier for players to learn... feature on map means slower movement got it), The swamp area will always have muddy and dangerous footing, as well as difficulty navigating. I would say that it should be closer to 1 / 3 movement (or 3 movement cost) if not 1 / 4 (4 movement cost). The rivers I like that they end movement flat out. Since, when crossing a river you inevitably have to portage else risk the currents with your supplies. Thus, it should take a while to move your troops across and basically give you a day of making stuff. If you were to do movement 1 / 5 (5 movement cost) or 1 / 6 (6 movement cost) would be probably appropriate (but I don't know movement to get that high anyway (in rare cases probably), and thus it effectively is remove all movement).

I don't think roads are off in their considerations for travel. You don't have to worry about navigation when using them and they are good hard ground to travel with all the equipment. Thus, making it 2 (1 / 2 movement cost) movement for a road a pretty good estimate. But if you did want to slow it down slightly, change it to a 1.5 (2 / 3 movement cost) movement. This might balance it more closely, but is it worth the time to tweak so precisely.

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June 11, 2013 4:50:27 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Great... now the game has cities 1500 miles wide! I guess the "one-square city" argument has a lot behind it after all.

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June 11, 2013 5:20:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,

Great... now the game has cities 1500 miles wide! I guess the "one-square city" argument has a lot behind it after all.

Hehehe, you win...

I suppose that if you set the tile size small then you have really slow moving troops on the map. 1 season to travel 91 miles, that would equate to travelling roughly 1 mile a day. The problem is the abstraction of time and distance do not equate well with this system, for immersion.

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June 11, 2013 5:40:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I have been thinking about single tile cities for a while generally the only reason people wanted to be able to manually place improvements was to expand/close off borders or reach resources.  I think this could be simplified if lumber mills could be built as an improvements distant from cities then they would be generally be built by water sources which is more realistic.

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June 11, 2013 5:45:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Time versus distance versus how long it takes to actually research/produce something is pretty hard to balance in this respect.

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June 11, 2013 5:47:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting halmal242,

I have been thinking about single tile cities for a while generally the only reason people wanted to be able to manually place improvements was to expand/close off borders or reach resources.  I think this could be simplified if lumber mills could be built as an improvements distant from cities then they would be generally be built by water sources which is more realistic.

No... I wanted a sim city in my 4x game. Don't use the strategy for it, I like making pretty cities and see them develop on the screen. Big Boon in my opinion. Balancing this is near impossible and hiding it in another screen, is not what I like to see.

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June 11, 2013 5:54:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Then how about a distant lumber mill improvement that does not have to be connected to a city but is limited to a single improvement per city?  This would still remove the need to stretch a city, sometimes a long ways, to get to a forest for a lumber mill.

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June 11, 2013 6:08:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting halmal242,

Then how about a distant lumber mill improvement that does not have to be connected to a city but is limited to a single improvement per city?  This would still remove the need to stretch a city, sometimes a long ways, to get to a forest for a lumber mill.

Given the current game dynamics this is not possible. You would need to create a special forest resource, and then you could build a lumbermill improvement on this resource. I've already tried to create something like this built by pioneers, it just transforms into an outpost anyway, no matter what you tell the game.

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June 11, 2013 6:16:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Argh, oh well I guess snaking is the only way to overcome this short of re-making the old growth forest from E:WoM and make it the same as a clay pit but only appears on forest tiles.

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June 11, 2013 6:39:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I should clarify, you can have the tile look like a lumber camp and have separate upgrades, it will just also have the outpost upgrades as well. I would have liked the ability to turn that off, but right now you cannot.

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June 28, 2013 12:14:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting halmal242,

So as the earth has a circumference of about 25000 miles, and assuming the world of Elemental is about the same size for a normal world, you should be able to cross the entire map in about 13-16 seasons give or take due to terrain or roads.  This seems a little low and I think I see the reasoning behind the immersion mods change to weeks but this might be too drastic and I would propose a change to months instead based upon these numbers.

Do remember the games are supposed to be set in a single continent, notice how everytime the devs mention Anthys as ALL of the known world, they always follow it with a 'as of 150AC' so my guess is there is more land elsewhere for expansions.

The lore does say that pre cataclysm there were three continents, Anthys that was a single one, a smaller sub continent and some island group. Then cataclysm happens and Anthys breaks, one of the other sinks and the other is turned to small islands. Who says some land did not emerge elsewhere too?

 

But more on topic, I doubt squares have any set scale, odds are they are as logical as Gal Civ ones that used the handwave of 'farther from stars its bigger because FTL' or our cities are MASSIVE. (That, or we walk REALLY slow outside cities in this game. )

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July 1, 2013 10:31:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Scaling has been a problem in war games since forever.  I won't say how long ago it was, 'cause it's embarassing, but I started out with a book called The War Game by Charles Grant.  He set out to create a horse-and-musket era tactical wargame from first principles.  He got a bunch of re-enacters together and figured out marching speeds, shot off muskets as a simulated target to see how many balls hit at what range, and did similar experiments to get the basic data, then created a simple simulation based on those data.  And, using that system, a refight of the Battle of Waterloo, say, took (in simulation time; it took days to game the damn thing in the precomputer era) 90 minutes.  The time-frames were usually off by about an order of magnitude.  This phenomenon occurs across the spectrum of times, technologies, and operational scales.  

Miniatures wargames of that era used various fudge-factors to make their time scales balance.  Those of you who played Dungeons and Dragons are familiar with the residue of this problem in the always-complicated-and-contentious rounds-and-turns system for tactical and strategic movement in that game.  

The explanation Grant gave at the time is that there's a lot of 'stooging around' in war.  And basically, at this point in my life, I have to agree.  Human beings almost never do anything in a focused and efficient manner, except perhaps for playing computer games.  Next time you're in your workplace, observe.  You go to someone's office to ask a simple question, but you exchange a bit of conversation about the Red Sox, then you stop by the bathroom on the way back, grab a candy bar from the machine, and get stopped in the hall by someone from another section who has a question you don't know the answer to but can look up and get back to them.  A game-designer building the 'go ask Bob a question' routine thinks over the process and says 'OK, walk to Bob, ask question, walk back' pulls up his movement simulator and the distance, a minute each way, adds 30 seconds for the question, and pops out 3 minutes (giving a bit of slack for to the estimate) -- for an operation that in the real world takes 30 minutes of work-time. 

I bet no army in history marched a season solid.  They fought someone's rearguard for a week and made no progress at all.  Dysentery hit the ranks and they had to camp for a month.  The commander got conflicting orders and sent a request for clarification.  The ruler changed his mind about the plan of campaign and set them back the way they came.  The logistics officer got a new girlfriend and neglected to send supplies for 3 weeks.  Somebody decided the cavalry needed more training in the lance before the campaign starts.  The panzers get diverted to Greece to bail out an inept ally and the campaign gets delayed for a month.  The weather isn't right and the invasion gets put off for a month.  

The universe loves us not, and human brains were evolved to tell each other where the ripe fruit is.  It's a wonder we get anything done at all.  

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