My complaints on Legendary Heroes.

Reinventing the wheel never goes well in the end.

By on May 12, 2013 9:22:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

kwm1800

Join Date 03/2008
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It's like watching typical Linux desktop Distro development. For instance, for more than a decade, developers and OEMs have struggling with proper ALSA support. Just when we finally got a stable, nearly fully supported audio system for Linux, BOOM! Suddenly Pulseaudio comes out nowhere because apparently someone needs some features that 99.5% of people won't use ever, making the whole investment on Linux audio moot. The best thing is that the features which are actually so badly needed for people (like, as a just average computer person, I have no knowledge and unwilling to re-compile Kernel or install specific distro just for low-latency support for productive work or just listening to high-quality music.) are ignored to oblivion.

 

And very surprisingly, despite being developed by a company very familiar with Windows development, LH follows the above example.

 

 

1. Reinventing the wheel.... by breaking it further.

 

By no means the whole RPG system in FE is perfect. There are some glare flaws here and there, but it has still far better than 'improved' Legendary Heroes's RPG system. Yes, RNG element is indeed double-edged sword, and I am pretty sure some people still prefer randomized traits over pre-defined paths. From my personal opinion, it is actually a step in right direction, but this is very subjective matter. At best we can say it is 'tweaked', but no way we can claim the current LH system as 'improved'.

The problem is with very short release time, those 'tweaked' features are hardly complete. An example would be removal of encumbrance. Instead of further refine the current system, Stardock decides to remove it entirely and made heroes and troops depended on specific traits. By doing so, a lot of hero items and balance features are completely out of whack.

Sure, these can be fixed later, but my point is that Stardock did not have to do this in the first place. Like, instead of making pre-defined paths and introducing yet another large amount of hard-coded features that making the game further un-moddable as if current state is not enough to troll modders, they could slightly tweak current RNG system and enhance encumbrance system.

Really, those two are probably only needed for the whole hero/RPG system from FE. Other than it needed more contents, the system itself was the most completed feature in FE. There are far more broken things that absolutely need to be fixed, yet Stardock chooses the most finished element and decides to re-invent. And of course, with shorter period it is just mess and half-finished. I mean like outdated XP split system. Please let D&D rules die already and move on to more modern system... like the one FE kinda has.

I am so shocked that somehow LH turned out to be far less completed game than FE, despite further man-power and assets have been poured.

 

 

2. Ignored crucial aspects..... get ignored, AGAIN.

 

There are issues that are as old as WOM days, only to be never fixed and properly ignored, while new problems keep coming out, only to be (again) not fixed. One of the biggest problem is that AI never plays with same rule as player. Yes, no way AI can handle quests as human players do, but that's not my point. There are things AI simply ignores while players cannot ignore, such as....

 

Treaties and pretty much the whole diplomacy as whole.

Resources and research bonuses (probably byproduct of diplomacy issue)

Glitches caused by the game engine (infamous city raze issue.)

 

No, I don't expect AI to be good in the first place. With current technologies, AI sucks and will be bad for my lifetime. What I want is that AIs should follow the same rules that applied upon players. Currently it does not happen at all. Today I see the resource stat of AIs again.... and AGAIN I see negative resources such as -245 metal and -100 mana. Why a human player cannot have negative resources when AI can. Either a human player should have access to go negative resource or AIs should not allow to have go negative resources. There are more issues such as broken modding and never-fulfilled promises on illusive python conversation, and dry 4X elements as well.

 

 

3. Some get actually improved/fixed/added. But do they outweigh negative points?

 

Sure, we got a new campaign. While it is really nothing more than a custom game with pre-defined positions and quests, but I do see some efforts are done on the campaign. I also see there are some new quests a.k.a random events to sauce the game with new items, which I like. But there are just too few to say LH is better than FE. If Stardock did not waste effort and money on reinventing hero parts, and instead focused on adding more quests, more items and more new monsters, LH would had been actually worthwhile to buy it.

 

 

4. The problems of Elemental... From least problematic to the most severe issue that making the game not-worthwhile.

 

Currently, I say LH worth probably 20 bucks or less IF a buyer is a first buyer for Elemental series. For those who bought FE already, even upgrade price is not really worth it.... if the prices go below 5 bucks, do consider picking it up for added contents alone. FE is still the most wise/best choice and it is definitely worth for current price (30 bucks) Those who have not picked up EF yet, you guys should pick up FE already. FE is far better than WoM and definitely better than LH despite having less contents.

Now, in order to make LH to be worth for 40 bucks, and making following expansions/DLC/new games Stardock worth to consider buying, following things should happen, to the least important to the most important.

 

(6) There needs to be the whole balance overhaul. Thanks to unnecessary tweaks, the game balance is just... destroyed. Someone needs to pick the pieces and put it together to match the quality of FE.

Why this is no.6 : Balance is also a subjective matter, and can be fixed/tweaked to good extent, even with bare-minimum modding capability the game has.

 

(5) The game needs more contents. For example, we need crapload of 'Epic' quests, some more 'Deadly' quests and a few 'Strong' quests. And a new item or two.

Why this is no.5 : Like balance issue, adding things aren't hard except asset parts. And the game already has a lot of contents.... only problem is the concentration of contents distributed is unbalanced.

 

(4) There are just so many bugs it is not even funny (almost as bad as Minecraft case). We need to fix the game before add any more stuffs.

Why this is no.4 : Fortunately, the game is definitely well-playable for most of people, and most of bugs are only recognizable only when players get used to the game and know the mechanics.

 

(3) AIs : No I don't mean making AIs smarter. What I want is AIs should follow the same rules as human player forced to follow. Otherwise a human player and AIs play different game. This completely breaks immersion of the game. Seriously no more negative resources, ridiculous diplomacy please.

Why this is no.3 : Other games aren't that better. Only problem is that Elemental's AIs are not playing same rules. Otherwise thanks to Brad's skill, other parts of AIs are quite decent.

 

(2) Modding : Seriously, there is a reason why almost all of old-timers and prominent modders stopped working on the game. DLCs and expansion packs in this age won't save your game and restore your company's reputation, but good modding support will. 

Why this is no.2 : Modding alone can fix all above 4 problems by itself. If we can mod the AI and mod without bugs, hard-coded stuffs and inconsistencies, I would be modding the game right now instead of making this another whining post, and modding section would had been much more vivid. Still, I must admit even modding is not the most severe problem of this game... so here no.1 comes...

 

(1) Boring early game : My opinion on early game of ALL of Stardock's 4X games, with few reservations : unbelievably bad.

Just go play games like even... heck, Warlock : Master Of Arcane. The difference is so huge in this aspect that makes people wonder whether Stardock is intentionally trying to make a boring game.

Actually this early game issue has been kept improving (yes, WoM has much worse early game. Believe it or not), but still, the early game is like a chore which is supposed to be attract players to play the game more. Yes, quests really helped this issue, among with all of tweaks being done, but we still need MORE early game spells, MORE choices, and MORE interesting stuffs to explore about. Make base movement allowance to 3 from 2, and buff ALL professions, including even so-called overpowered BeastLord and Armorer. And all factions should be able to make more interesting units other than spearmen, militia, scout and pioneer.

Why this is no.1 : Despite it is also can be fixed by modding (wow, modding is indeed a magic wand, isn't it?) the issue has been so overdue yet so severe that needs immediate fixes before the interests in this game dies away.

 

 

 

 

Last thought before I finish this post : Stardock complains people whine too much compared to other forums. I choked myself when I first read such statement. This is the most stupid comment/claim I've ever heard from both the Internet and real life.

 

People whine at something because they like it and want something more, and willing to pay if the company delivers. If people decide the company won't do it and lost faith, they will simply walk away, not whine. I mean, why they have to waste their time when it is just not worth to do so? Like Demigod forum pretty much dead after 3 months of the release, and pitiful post counts on SupCom 2 related forums, people will stop whine and stop paying attention to the company. Do you see any forums still discussing about Dragon Age 2? No, you actually see more posts about Dragon Age Origin. If the amount of whining posts has declined in forums, it means that customers lost interests in your products, and they are probably not going to come back (and everyone probably knows getting a new customer is several times harder than retaining a current customer, right?)

I bought Elemental : Limited Edition and also bought FE on steam despite I did not have to. And I pretty much bought all of Stardock's games til this point. After how modding support went and incidents happened here and there, I am not sure if I buy any Stardock's games in future. Sure, I will be probably buy some more Elemental DLC/Expansions since I have already invested in Elemental, but no way I will buy any new games right away after all of these problems.

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Kamamura_CZ
OliverFA_306
May 14, 2013 10:34:23 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The final missing pieces...

 

One part pirate, one part diplomat, one part baby's momma. 

 

Then we can call this thing done. 

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May 14, 2013 10:43:54 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Andre_0,


Quoting Frogboy, reply 31
Now, if you want to complain about something in LH, complain about the diplomacy system. That is the single biggest disappointment in the Elemental games IMO. 

Yes, it is.  Any chance you can fix it?  I know you have the ability because I own GalCiv 2.  It just boggles my mind how a LH faction can go from neutral to hating my faction, to liking my faction within a 15 turn span, without actually communicating with me.

In terms of relations, that system works pretty well. The situation you describe can't happen simply because the evaluation system doesn't occur that often. The reasons they do or don't like you are displayed in the foreign policy window. The more negatives, the less they'll like you.

In addition, while in the beta the AI could break its treaty obligations, that bug was fixed (that's why we have betas <g>).

A lot of the things I've read in this thread simply aren't applicable and haven't been in awhile or we simply disagree. A beta isn't a released game. Condemning us on bugs in a beta version, especially after those bugs were addressed isn't very constructive. 

My suggestion to the OP is not to play betas of games. The sausage factory that is game development isn't for everyone.

I'm renaming the topic since its a bit ridiculous to make a rant about about bugs encountered in the beta and then refer to it as the "final verdict".  

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May 14, 2013 10:57:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The team has a strong core of empire building to work off of, which is great. I think most people agree with this. There needs to be another pass on faction differentiation, since that has kind of fallen by the wayside, and you now have a grand total of 1 interesting race (Resoln).

IMO the game just needs more interesting and more powerful heroes, including better items, more powerful early game, more access to XP (splitting or not doesn't mater, the amount and spread of XP matters), and WAY WAY more interesting skill trees.

My opinion on the last: there should not be a single trait that the design team feels is boring. Leveling up is rare enough that it should not be a disappointment to the player at any point.

 

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May 14, 2013 12:19:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

OK, I've been trying to hold back a bit, but now it's time to say how I really feel...

 

Dear Developers.

Please stop making this game more like Civilization or (insert title).  If I want to play a game like Civilization, I'll buy that title.  I don't want you guys to make another Civ game.

I originally bought Elemental because it did a lot of things differently than Civ does.  But I am currently seeing a lot of Civ-like mechanics/conventions/design choices in the current version of LH.  In fact, I'd still be regularly playing the original Elemental game/design regularly today IF it was as stable as LH now is, with a few added features you've come up with since that release.

Sure, there are still some innovative concepts that have survived.  But this game continues to get dumbed down, and become even more Civ-like, at a time when many of us expect more depth and sophistication in our designs, and better from you guys specifically.  This was no time to be taking Occham's Razor to the extreme.

You brought us Galactic Civilizations, an award winning design and certainly one of the Definitive 4x titles out there.  A good number of us want more the magic of THAT game in this one.  In fact, this IS why a lot of us bought Elemental in the first place, because we had faith that you could successfully bring many of good features/innovations from that title across to this one, along with a bunch of new innovations that you've shown us the ability to bring us in the past.

And there were some deeper concepts and intricate game mechanics in Galactic Civilizations, and one phrase I'd NEVER use in describing that game is dumbed down.

Is LH a decent game?  To a degree yes.  Is it worthy of it's predecessors, though? A good number of us think not quite.  It'll probably sell fairly well, but the Elemental Franchise could be SOOOO much better than this result.  And it breaks my heart to see you guys 'settling' instead of innovating further.

Get back to your roots please.  The flotsam of good features that have been thrown on the pyre is sickening, really.  AND NO, I am not referring to Encumberance, and I don't appreciate you trying to imply that this is THE major issue a good number of us have with the most recent iterations of LH (while it was a nice innovation that a lot of us would like to see kept as an option at least, that's such a minor issue in the grand scheme of things really).

Unfortunately, Brad has recently alluded that this might just be the last iteration of Elemental, so it's probably too late for an appeal to have any effect.  Which is sad.  So, this essentially means we will NEVER have properly working Dynasties in Elemental, Boats (outside of scenarios), Unique Tech Trees for each race, actual dungeon maps instead of the repurposed maps, more flexibility in Hero/Champion design (on the game end, not the coding end), and a good number of other things that have been mentioned numerous times.

Sure, the modders will try to rectify some of these issues (note what they did with further balancing the Tech Trees and such in TOA after you guys shifted focus from that game, not to mention all of the cool mods).  But a lot of the above mentioned Elemental issues are beyond their control/reach.

So, I'm guessing this appeal is too little too late, but if LH does well enough to warrant a fourth look, PLEASE get back to your roots, and reincorporate the design decisions you originally made (your 'gut instincts' as it were) into the current engine.  Your initial instincts were on the mark, the implementation just wasn't given a fair shake.

And stop trying to clone Civ or (insert title)!

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May 14, 2013 12:42:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting tjashen,

...
Sure, there are still some innovative concepts that have survived.  But this game continues to get dumbed down, and become even more Civ-like, at a time when many of us expect more depth and sophistication in our designs, and better from you guys specifically.  This was no time to be taking Occham's Razor to the extreme.

...

Get back to your roots please.  The flotsam of good features that have been thrown on the pyre is sickening, really.  AND NO, I am not referring to Encumberance, and I don't appreciate you trying to imply that this is THE major issue a good number of us have with the most recent iterations of LH (while it was a nice innovation that a lot of us would like to see kept as an option at least, that's such a minor issue in the grand scheme of things really).

Unfortunately, Brad has recently alluded that this might just be the last iteration of Elemental, so it's probably too late for an appeal to have any effect.  Which is sad.  So, this essentially means we will NEVER have properly working Dynasties in Elemental, Boats (outside of scenarios), Unique Tech Trees for each race, actual dungeon maps instead of the repurposed maps, more flexibility in Hero/Champion design (on the game end, not the coding end), and a good number of other things that have been mentioned numerous times.

...

And stop trying to clone Civ or (insert title)!

 

I dislike you for the following reasons:

  1. You appear to think that removing any features, no matter how "dumb," makes the game more shallow. I'd rather spend my time making real decisions and choices rather than brain-dead choices and navigating through systems that don't go well together. Everything that has been removed should have been removed, although perhaps these removals were not prioritized as well as they should have been.
  2. You seem to want LH to be more like E:WoM, which is one of the worst games I've ever played.

That said, you do have a point that the game should not be trying to clone anything else. It has distinct advantages which it should be utilizing.

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May 14, 2013 12:50:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I have to agree here with tjashen.  I really liked the original game and with a few of the features of the newer versions added to it would have made for an amazing game.

Some simple things that could have been.  While I love the food/population system I have some things I wish could have been implemented with it or brought back.  Excess food converted to a exportable food instead of a faction bonus and then imported to a specific city since food is a finite resource.  One, or many, could be food exporters and one, many could be food importers which is the way it works in the real world.  The specialist system was absolutely brilliant and I would love to see it make a comeback as it solves support issues for population/troops/buildings.  Dynamic production values for population sizes should never have been cut in favor of flat values for city sizes as once you level a city up it just becomes a static value no matter if you have 1 person or 600.  Population is a resource and should be treated as such not a growth mechanic.  Some other simple things that could have been backported was the simple system for dodge versus accuracy.  This was very easy to understand and with the stat systems in E:WoM would have worked just fine.

 

Hmm the more I think about it the more I think many of us would like to be able to just either tinker with the more basic functionality of specific designs, basic stats, or have an updated patch for E:WoM which allows us to implement these changes back to it.  Or better yet bring the changes forward from E:WoM to FE/LH engine.

Let me reiterate what I have said before, I love this series but I wish it went the direction of E:WoM and not Civ with magic.

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May 14, 2013 1:01:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think you guys may be looking at WOM with rose colored glasses. The game was terrible, terrible, terrible. You don't have to take my word for it, just look at the reviews from critics and players alike. Fallen Enchantress and Legendary Heroes have greatly improved upon the original product. 

That being said, I do agree with the last few posters that it does seem like some of the neater features have been stripped out of the game over time, but those features were poorly implemented to begin with. The best case scenario for this series would have been to improve upon those features instead of cutting them and changing them, but overall, the things that are still left are at least done in the right manner and they actually work.

WOM felt like a gigantic jigsaw puzzle that was partially put together, the expansions feel like smaller jigsaw puzzles that are at least almost complete when they release.

 

 

 

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May 14, 2013 1:28:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's like talking to a wall.  Stardock's vision for this whole series is a strategy game with RPG elements.  There's no ambiguity there.  Frogboy has put that right on the table in this thread.  You may want this game to be X, but the people who are making this game do not want to do that. 

I know you think you're offering constructive criticism, but what you're doing is straight-up whining.

The hilarious thing is to read people saying that removing poorly-functioning mechanics like encumbrance or dynasties or weapon-type-damage is dumbing the game down.  When in reality the game has become more complex and more challenging every step of the way.  FE was better than WoM, not because it was simpler, but because it was more fun, more challenging, and more interesting in every way.  And the same is true when you compare FE to LH.  LH has been clearly the better game since the very first beta was released.

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May 14, 2013 1:37:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Where were all these Elemetnal War of Magic fans back in 2010?  

This read is such a good example of revisionism. The original WOM was a mess. legendary Heroes is so much better because they went in and made e player's choices matter. 

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May 14, 2013 1:46:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

can't comment on WOM - never played it, but in my opinion, LH is a lot better than FE. can't really follow the theadstarters line of reasoning (if there's actually a line of reasoning in that post). had to laugh hard at the "balance is destroyed" comment (point 6). the balance in FE was nowhere near what we have now in LH. there may still be some issues, but for the most part, it's easy enough to not use the handful of obvious exploits if you're looking for a more balanced game. at least you can no longer win the game without even settling your first city.

also, judging the beta version of a game by the amount of bugs is just dumb. 

don't get the comment about boring early game either. in fact, if i had to name one strategy game with an interesting early game, it would be LH.

 

 

 

 

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May 14, 2013 2:52:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Azunai_,
don't get the comment about boring early game either. in fact, if i had to name one strategy game with an interesting early game, it would be LH.

That is indeed a very curious thing and I am genuinly puzzled how such extremely differing perceptions come about? I assume it has to do with what you expect to get out of a game within a certain genre.

Early game is the most fun I have playing LH and if anything, I feel like late game starts to drag. I actually tend to quit a session before killing off all the remaining factions because they are no challenge anymore and it is a downright chore. This is a recurring issue I have with all 4X games I've played.

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May 14, 2013 3:26:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting sweatyboatman,

It's like talking to a wall.  Stardock's vision for this whole series is a strategy game with RPG elements.  There's no ambiguity there.  Frogboy has put that right on the table in this thread.  You may want this game to be X, but the people who are making this game do not want to do that. 

I know you think you're offering constructive criticism, but what you're doing is straight-up whining.

The hilarious thing is to read people saying that removing poorly-functioning mechanics like encumbrance or dynasties or weapon-type-damage is dumbing the game down.  When in reality the game has become more complex and more challenging every step of the way.  FE was better than WoM, not because it was simpler, but because it was more fun, more challenging, and more interesting in every way.  And the same is true when you compare FE to LH.  LH has been clearly the better game since the very first beta was released.

Your reply is as good of a place to start as any.

My intention was not constructive criticism r.e LH with this last reply.  MY INTENTION was to put the designers on notice as to what a good number of us would like to see in the NEXT Elemental release, should we be fortunate enough to see it.  LH is effectively done at this point, so expecting change there is just not gonna happen, and it is, as many of you point out, LH is it's own game at this point.  I'm just laying the groundwork for the discussion r.e. the next version, if we are lucky enough to see one.

AND, this is why I didn't start a new thread, and instead buried my request into this thread, so that new potential customers wouldn't come to the forum and see 'Note to Designers: Next game should have' emblazoned as a forum topic, and wondering if LH sucks so bad that it needs another rework...

Many of the 'poorly functioning mechanics' you are referring to were selling points for the original E:WOM.  And my 'gripe' as it were is that these mechanics could have been tweaked into properly functioning mechanics, but instead were not fully realized.

As I remember, the #1 issue with Dynasties wasn't that they didn't work (they worked fine), but that the kids had really wild/OTT stats, something that with some work could have been brought into line.  Also, Dynasties make a great basis for advanced Diplomatic options.  NOW, the only reason I bother with diplomacy now is to make some cash and keep people off my back (non-agression pacts and selling tech for gildar) for as long as possible.  I still use it, but it's hollow at it's core.  Brad has commented already that this could be better, and IF we get another go/Elemental 4 maybe we will see something.  But giving up on Dynasties is a perfect example of an unfulfilled promise in this game.

LH is great for stability.  by comparison even E:WOM 1.4 had stability issues.  This is the #1 reason people don't play that game.  I recently, within the last month, re-installed E:WOM 1.0 and played it for a bit.  The frequent crashes were very annoying (all hail the auto save!), but the game plays differently.  The pacing is different, and there more of a sense of mystery in the game, partially thanks to not knowing/seeing where most things are at the start of the game (goodie huts, some resources, heroes), which changes your approach to things completely. 

Plus the Lore tree kept things interesting for most of the game.  By comparison, I think the Fame stat works OK (it has a lot of potential for other uses as a purchasing resource BTW, as someone alluded to in another thread recently), but since we now know where pretty much all of the monster lairs are, well that detracts from the mystery of the game, and eliminates a lot of the guesswork.

As a comparison, take Barbarians in Civ, or the Alien Lifeforms in Alpha Centauri.  You never really knew when they'd strike, and they had this annoying tendency to show up at the worst times.  The original E:WOM had this with monsters, but now that we KNOW where the lairs are, once they are removed from the map, it's almost a non-issue (random events aside).  I liked the idea of NOT knowing where the lairs werre, or where they had just cropped up, and having to actually explore to find them and take them out.  Note that this wasn't fully implemented in E:WOM, but we had discussions about this to 'home' the monsters and add to the 'problems to solve/need to find that monster lair' to the laundry list for empire management.

Another good example is Heroes versus Champions.  In E:WOM, you never really knew when these guys would show up.  In LH, it is spelled out explicitly (not counting quest acquisitions).  Better for game balance?  Perhaps.  More Challenging?  Not at all.  More mysterious?  Not even.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE.  Back in E:WOM, channeling cities in a given direction was much more flexible.  Want lots of material production?  Build lots of crafting structures.  Want lots of research?  Build a lot of studies.  NOW, it's one and done, and even the upgrades are one and done.  Cities are much more 'canned/unisex' now than they were in E:WOM.  And I had absolutely no issue with having to build hovels for my population.  Again, there was the balancing act to keep in mind.  NOW, it's simply 'maximize food production' and go, and maximize other structures when the upgrades show up.  I do remember doing the math r.e. libraries versus studies and other research structures and such in E:WOM, and actually putting thought into going big or going fast (study versus a bigger structure), or looking at my overall tech production versus building capacity, etc. and shifting building priorities on the fly.  In E:LH?  Yeah, just have three main decisions to make: Conclave, Fort, or City... everything else is pretty much 'build it when it becomes available', so it's a matter of WHEN and in what order, not IF you should build this instead of that...

Oh, and btw CIV had/has more flexibility on City focus than LH does, thanks to being able to send engineers out and convert farms to mines and such.  While E:WOM didn't have quite this flexibility it had more than we have now, which is my point.

The current design is great if your only goal is to build armies and go conquer (which, incidentally, take twice as long to build now since you have to build your city up OR build armies, which slows down pacing considerably).  In E:WOM, well how you built your cities was a much bigger deal, with a lot more decisions to consider IMHO.  Oh, and this incidentally magnifies the 'stack of doom' problem further, as having multiple stacks is now harder to do, especially in the early game.

This one single point (build and train) is one important thing that made E:WOM different from Civ, and one of the reasons why I say the game now feels more like Civ.

Did E:WOM have room for improvement?  Absolutely!  I was one of the modders that took a crack at this, and I will admit that I became frustrated when patches were coming out so fast that I had to re-do things multiple times as the files and core mechanics kept changing a bit, so I gave up.  Others made efforts to balance things, combat wise and such, and by 1.40 a lot of the wilder inconsistencies had been addressed.  But this is why I keep saying 'Take the Elemental Engine we have now, re-add everything from the beginning, apply the balancing tweaks that have been arrived at, and continue from there', in the next release.

And, btw, E:WOM 1.0 is almost a completely different game than E:WOM 1.4, thanks to the many changes between the two.  I think a lot of people are thinking of E:WOM 1.4 when they see E:WOM, when in fact many of us are referring to the ORIGINAL EWOM as the baseline.  Sure, E:WOM 1.4 adds a few things, and balance was better in some ways, but we lost some things along the way too...

Oh, and Global Mana Pools?  Lazy.  I put a LOT more thought into hero upgrades and spell casting when individual mana pools were in the equation..

 

Oh, and SINCE you brought up Encumberance, AGAIN, even though I said this WASN'T the core reason behind the letter, requiring a trait to wear armor is just lazy.  Especially when this can be addressed with penalties very effectively.  There are other very good ways to balance armor, that do not require soaking up valuable trait slots, using modifiers.  And, as has been pointed out, Elemental remains a game of Glass Cannons in many people's eyes, and armor isn't as effective as it could be thanks to things like swarm.  And, it is just stupid to say 'well, we know that you could just pull that chain shirt over your head, but you don't have a chain shirt license so you can't do that'.  But that's a topic that has been beat to death in another thread, and as I'm not focusing on LH at this point, but looking forward, the point is moot.

 

SOOOO, again, you LH lovers have nothing to worry about.  LH is almost gold at this point, so that's the game you will get. And LH isn't a bad game, it's just not the game many of us E:WOM Lovers types wanted from Stardock when we first bought into the franchise.

 

I'm looking towards the future, and holding Brad to the promise he put forward with E:WOM, with the considerably more stable engine we now have with E:LH, with some of the newer features being incorporated to improve on the design.

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May 14, 2013 3:29:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting phazonfreak,


Quoting Azunai_, reply 60don't get the comment about boring early game either. in fact, if i had to name one strategy game with an interesting early game, it would be LH.

That is indeed a very curious thing and I am genuinly puzzled how such extremely differing perceptions come about? I assume it has to do with what you expect to get out of a game within a certain genre.

Early game is the most fun I have playing LH and if anything, I feel like late game starts to drag. I actually tend to quit a session before killing off all the remaining factions because they are no challenge anymore and it is a downright chore. This is a recurring issue I have with all 4X games I've played.

To date, the board game (and iOS port) Eclipse is the only 4x I've known that solves this issue.

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May 14, 2013 3:42:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting phazonfreak,


Quoting Azunai_, reply 60don't get the comment about boring early game either. in fact, if i had to name one strategy game with an interesting early game, it would be LH.

That is indeed a very curious thing and I am genuinly puzzled how such extremely differing perceptions come about? I assume it has to do with what you expect to get out of a game within a certain genre.

Early game is the most fun I have playing LH and if anything, I feel like late game starts to drag. I actually tend to quit a session before killing off all the remaining factions because they are no challenge anymore and it is a downright chore. This is a recurring issue I have with all 4X games I've played.

+1

Yeah, once you've steamrolled a couple of empires (on say a 10 empire map), it has usually become a foregone conclusion, and there isn't much point in finishing at that point.  There was a time I would play games through all the time, but investing another 8-16 hours to accomplish the obvious is not on my 'want list'.  If there are other elements to keep me interested it's another matter (i.e. I want to try this instead of that kinda stuff), but I'm not finding a lot of compelling reasons in Elemental these days.

A good example of what I'm alluding to is trying to maximize food production in civ, versus maximize produciton.  Sometimes you just want to see if you can make a size 26 city... not really feeling 'THAT' in Elemental.

But I digress.  Early game is what I enjoy the most, due to the 'how the heck am I going to get enough guys scraped together to kill that monster stack of doom' thing... but once my monster killing stack is built, well those stacks are awesome for conquering cities too, and then the tediousness sets in.

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May 14, 2013 3:45:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

tjashen, I fundamentally disagree with almost everything that comes from your head.

 

Quoting tjashen,


As I remember, the #1 issue with Dynasties wasn't that they didn't work (they worked fine), but that the kids had really wild/OTT stats, something that with some work could have been brought into line.  Also, Dynasties make a great basis for advanced Diplomatic options.  NOW, the only reason I bother with diplomacy now is to make some cash and keep people off my back (non-agression pacts and selling tech for gildar) for as long as possible.  I still use it, but it's hollow at it's core.  Brad has commented already that this could be better, and IF we get another go/Elemental 4 maybe we will see something.  But giving up on Dynasties is a perfect example of an unfulfilled promise in this game.

Dynasties flat out did not work. They were broken as all hell, not just mechanically, but conceptually. I could go into detail on how horrible they are in so many different ways, but I think that would be a waste of time. Plus Medieval Total War 2, released 2 years before E:WoM, implemented dynasties almost flawlessly, which made E:WoM's dynasty system stand out as an even bigger turd than it would have otherwise. Giving up on Dynasties is a perfect example of reconciling the game into something reasonably coherent.

Quoting tjashen,

LH is great for stability.  by comparison even E:WOM 1.4 had stability issues.  This is the #1 reason people don't play that game.  I recently, within the last month, re-installed E:WOM 1.0 and played it for a bit.  The frequent crashes were very annoying (all hail the auto save!), but the game plays differently.  The pacing is different, and there more of a sense of mystery in the game, partially thanks to not knowing/seeing where most things are at the start of the game (goodie huts, some resources, heroes), which changes your approach to things completely. 

Wrong. Well, we could take a poll, but most likely very wrong. I don't hate E:WoM because I had to restart frequently. I hate it because it sucked bad. I will grant you that there was more mystery with things being revealed later in the game. I did find that interesting. It would have been a pain to make it work though, so I'm not sorry to see it go.

Quoting tjashen,


The current design is great if your only goal is to build armies and go conquer (which, incidentally, take twice as long to build now since you have to build your city up OR build armies, which slows down pacing considerably).  In E:WOM, well how you built your cities was a much bigger deal, with a lot more decisions to consider IMHO.  Oh, and this incidentally magnifies the 'stack of doom' problem further, as having multiple stacks is now harder to do, especially in the early game.

What are you smoking? In E:WoM you built EVERY city EXACTLY the same way: to completion. There were no decisions.


Quoting tjashen,


Oh, and Global Mana Pools?  Lazy.  I put a LOT more thought into hero upgrades and spell casting when individual mana pools were in the equation..


I think people who like individual mana pools are lazy, and don't want to analyze the benefits and costs of using a particular spell. For me, that's engaging as hell. And it took more effort to implement this and remove the old system, so it's hardly due to laziness.

Quoting tjashen,

Oh, and SINCE you brought up Encumberance, AGAIN, even though I said this WASN'T the core reason behind the letter, requiring a trait to wear armor is just lazy.  Especially when this can be addressed with penalties very effectively.  There are other very good ways to balance armor, that do not require soaking up valuable trait slots, using modifiers.  And, as has been pointed out, Elemental remains a game of Glass Cannons in many people's eyes, and armor isn't as effective as it could be thanks to things like swarm.  And, it is just stupid to say 'well, we know that you could just pull that chain shirt over your head, but you don't have a chain shirt license so you can't do that'.  But that's a topic that has been beat to death in another thread, and as I'm not focusing on LH at this point, but looking forward, the point is moot.


Again, removing a system to implement something else is NOT lazy. If you can reduce complexity without reducing depth (that is, decision making), then you should always do that without exception. ALWAYS. However, I do feel there are other higher priority changes to be made, and that such a change was very poorly timed.

 

With your wish for free mana, no traits for amor, etc. I'm seeing a recurring theme: you hate limitations on what you can do while playing a game. I love them, since they make me think. 

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May 14, 2013 4:13:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting sweatyboatman,

 The hilarious thing is to read people saying that removing poorly-functioning mechanics like encumbrance or dynasties or weapon-type-damage is dumbing the game down.  When in reality the game has become more complex and more challenging every step of the way.  FE was better than WoM, not because it was simpler, but because it was more fun, more challenging, and more interesting in every way.  And the same is true when you compare FE to LH.  LH has been clearly the better game since the very first beta was released.

With all respects, I don't see how LH is more complex than the previous incarnations. The previous posters have pointed many of the reasons why is not like that. Again, is not about encumbrance. Encumbrance is yet another feature removed in a long list of concepts axed. The drop that floods the cup if you want to say in that way.

Perhaps Stardock plan has always been to make a simple strategy game, but what I remember reading when I preordered E:WoM was a very complete game with lots of features that interacted with each other and allowed to play it in many different styles. What we have now is an ok game with a lot less features that is advancing more and more towards abstraction, which in my opinión is not good. Having weird abstractions forcing you to make "interesting strategic choices" does not look like my idea of fun (yes, I said MY idea of fun, because I am giving my opinión and am not trying to evangelize).

However, it seems very strange to me that a game that was not supposed to be a very complete game had as many features as E:WoM, and it seems very logical to me to say that this game is simply not like E:WoM. Will I commit suicide because that's not the game I hoped for? Not at all, but I feel like expressing it here in the fórums.

To put in a short way: My humble opinión is that the game continues to lose features that really made the difference and made it stand on its own against other games, not only 4x/TBS/RPG games, but games in general. During this process the game has become a "me too" game. An enjoyable one and pretty cool, but very far from its original objective.

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May 14, 2013 4:21:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting tjashen,

 But this is why I keep saying 'Take the Elemental Engine we have now, re-add everything from the beginning, apply the balancing tweaks that have been arrived at, and continue from there', in the next release.

I fully agree with this.

 

Quoting tjashen,
 SOOOO, again, you LH lovers have nothing to worry about.  LH is almost gold at this point, so that's the game you will get. And LH isn't a bad game, it's just not the game many of us E:WOM Lovers types wanted from Stardock when we first bought into the franchise.

 

And with this too. Thanks for giving me FE for free. That's cool and even enjoyable, but it's not the game I paid for.

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May 14, 2013 4:27:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

E:WoM was a complex, shallow strategy game.

LH is a far less complex, deeper strategy game.

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May 14, 2013 4:30:54 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I can't help but note all the people lamenting these lost great features don't like it when you point out what those features actually were.

Encumbrance

Dynasties

Weapon-type-based damage (FE)

Recruitable heroes just hanging out on the map

Dozens of mostly useless buildings so that you would just end up building one in every city

Individual mana pools

High level monsters that would appear out of nowhere and destroy your cities.

The list goes on...

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May 14, 2013 4:31:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting OliverFA_306,

To put in a short way: My humble opinión is that the game continues to lose features that really made the difference and made it stand on its own against other games, not only 4x/TBS/RPG games, but games in general. During this process the game has become a "me too" game. An enjoyable one and pretty cool, but very far from its original objective.

 

Well put.

 

More summons ("warring elemental"s) > less dark pop-ups.  I guess I'm looking forward to the DLC's?

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May 14, 2013 5:24:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting sweatyboatman,

I can't help but note all the people lamenting these lost great features don't like it when you point out what those features actually were.

Encumbrance

Dynasties

Weapon-type-based damage (FE)

Recruitable heroes just hanging out on the map

Dozens of mostly useless buildings so that you would just end up building one in every city

Individual mana pools

High level monsters that would appear out of nowhere and destroy your cities.

The list goes on...

 

My largest problem with the removal of features is not that they have been removed but that the ability to re-add them has been either removed or greatly reduced.  You can overcome some of it through creative efforts but it is painful compared to that which used to be a very easy change.  This right here is why many don't like to mod for this series along with the inability to override values through the mod fold, unless this has changed recently.

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May 14, 2013 5:43:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Sythion,

tjashen, I fundamentally disagree with almost everything that comes from your head.

 


Quoting tjashen, reply 62

As I remember, the #1 issue with Dynasties wasn't that they didn't work (they worked fine), but that the kids had really wild/OTT stats, something that with some work could have been brought into line.  Also, Dynasties make a great basis for advanced Diplomatic options.  NOW, the only reason I bother with diplomacy now is to make some cash and keep people off my back (non-agression pacts and selling tech for gildar) for as long as possible.  I still use it, but it's hollow at it's core.  Brad has commented already that this could be better, and IF we get another go/Elemental 4 maybe we will see something.  But giving up on Dynasties is a perfect example of an unfulfilled promise in this game.




Dynasties flat out did not work. They were broken as all hell, not just mechanically, but conceptually. I could go into detail on how horrible they are in so many different ways, but I think that would be a waste of time. Plus Medieval Total War 2, released 2 years before E:WoM, implemented dynasties almost flawlessly, which made E:WoM's dynasty system stand out as an even bigger turd than it would have otherwise. Giving up on Dynasties is a perfect example of reconciling the game into something reasonably coherent.

While I'm not going to question whether they worked flawlessly in M:TW2 (never played that game), saying they didn't work at all isn't true.  They produced offspring, which gave you more generals/spellcasters for your armies.  My kids saw a lot of action in Elemental, and made great combat spell platforms.  Sure, a lot of the other uses for dynasties was neglected, no one is disupting that, but again this could have been addressed with continued work on the concept, rather than just abandoning it.  As Brad has said, Diplomacy is his one nagging issue he'd love to improve somehow, and Dynasties just happen to dovetail into this nicely.


Quoting tjashen, reply 62
LH is great for stability.  by comparison even E:WOM 1.4 had stability issues.  This is the #1 reason people don't play that game.  I recently, within the last month, re-installed E:WOM 1.0 and played it for a bit.  The frequent crashes were very annoying (all hail the auto save!), but the game plays differently.  The pacing is different, and there more of a sense of mystery in the game, partially thanks to not knowing/seeing where most things are at the start of the game (goodie huts, some resources, heroes), which changes your approach to things completely. 




Wrong. Well, we could take a poll, but most likely very wrong. I don't hate E:WoM because I had to restart frequently. I hate it because it sucked bad. I will grant you that there was more mystery with things being revealed later in the game. I did find that interesting. It would have been a pain to make it work though, so I'm not sorry to see it go.

Just go back to the original EWOM threads, and note all of the 'OOM/game is broken/I quit threads'.  Not questioning that YOU hated the game, but others really wanted to love it, but expected better from Stardock quality/bug wise.  #1 could be an exaggeration on my part, but based on the I quit threads, I don't really think so.


Quoting tjashen, reply 62

The current design is great if your only goal is to build armies and go conquer (which, incidentally, take twice as long to build now since you have to build your city up OR build armies, which slows down pacing considerably).  In E:WOM, well how you built your cities was a much bigger deal, with a lot more decisions to consider IMHO.  Oh, and this incidentally magnifies the 'stack of doom' problem further, as having multiple stacks is now harder to do, especially in the early game.




What are you smoking? In E:WoM you built EVERY city EXACTLY the same way: to completion. There were no decisions.

I specifically remember building multiple libraries, or multiple workshops, or arcane libraries, and having to decide on some balance for these.  Each provides +1 to their repsective discipline, plus there was the whole 'Hosten's Library adds 25% to Lore' and other structures thing, which factored into those +1's.  So many buildings to build, so little time...  Now, you build just one and maybe upgrade it later.

Mind you, I like the lumber mills in LH, but again you build just 1, and you are stupid not to build one if you can.  With population caps, well you might not even have the population to man said lumber mill, but we don't have those anymore.  Not sure if that is a late E:WOM or early E:FE innovation though, but I loved the population pool concept (with appropriate balancing of course).



Quoting tjashen, reply 62

Oh, and Global Mana Pools?  Lazy.  I put a LOT more thought into hero upgrades and spell casting when individual mana pools were in the equation..


I think people who like individual mana pools are lazy, and don't want to analyze the benefits and costs of using a particular spell. For me, that's engaging as hell. And it took more effort to implement this and remove the old system, so it's hardly due to laziness.

All global mana does is encourage you to make one huge mana pool.  Once the mana gravy train is rolling, the only thing I worry about is if I have some huge 500 point spell (read: cure plague) to cast, as I can generally cast any spell I need to.  Under the Old system, whether a hero could even cast a spell depended on the size of his individual mana pool, plus they took time to regenerate, so I found myself having to think about whether a given stack had any mana to use, or if I should send a different stack/caster, who had more mana available. 

AND, you had a 'mana cap' based on the total size of your individual mana pools.  We have no mana cap whatsoever anymore...

Do note the multiple 'I have thousands of mana points' posts in the LH discussion.  These generally go 'I bank mana until the end game, and then go hog wild with spells as I devastate/cripple opponents with effectively unrestricted spellcasting'.  When we had individual mana pools, this never happened, as you had to regenerate said individual mana pools between bouts, or go in short of mana.

Global Mana augments the stack of doom (makes it even more OTT), as one or two spellcasters in the back can go spell crazy if they want, as long as the pool is large.  In the old system, they only had their own mana to work with, which while said pools could get rather large at higher levels of experience, weren't anywhere near the size of pools I'm seeing now.

As far as global spells and individual mana pools, I've covered this already.  The developers already had the 'send mana to another caster' mechanic implemented for expensive global spells with channeling, although said global spells were fairly cheap so usually a Sov could handle it on his/her own, but with balancing this intended result could have been brought to fruition.  Plus, these days in LH, I don't find myself casting many combat spells, as combat units are so effective.  Bow armed Sovs work well as fire support in the early game, except against Bacco of course, but that's a minor issue.  They do need screening units, but as you can make some pretty powerful units, again spells aren't as important/have as great an influence as they used to be.  While I do use a few ranged spells in LH combat from time to time, they aren't the order of the day, and I used them A LOT in E:WOM 1.0.

Sure, the formulas for individual mana pools needed some tweaking, but we were 80% of the way there, but tossed the concept instead because 'Using Channeling for global spells was weird'.  The one change I'd make is a 'use or lose' philosophy for channeled mana, and a 'Strategic Use Only for channeled mana' requirement, but that's just me, and there are other solutions.

Quoting tjashen, reply 62
Oh, and SINCE you brought up Encumberance, AGAIN, even though I said this WASN'T the core reason behind the letter, requiring a trait to wear armor is just lazy.  Especially when this can be addressed with penalties very effectively.  There are other very good ways to balance armor, that do not require soaking up valuable trait slots, using modifiers.  And, as has been pointed out, Elemental remains a game of Glass Cannons in many people's eyes, and armor isn't as effective as it could be thanks to things like swarm.  And, it is just stupid to say 'well, we know that you could just pull that chain shirt over your head, but you don't have a chain shirt license so you can't do that'.  But that's a topic that has been beat to death in another thread, and as I'm not focusing on LH at this point, but looking forward, the point is moot.


Again, removing a system to implement something else is NOT lazy. If you can reduce complexity without reducing depth (that is, decision making), then you should always do that without exception. ALWAYS. However, I do feel there are other higher priority changes to be made, and that such a change was very poorly timed.

Before, I had issues to face r.e. encumberance.  I specifically remember having to balance weight issues so I could use that really heavy double axe with Bacco, and taking a pass on heavier armors just so I COULD use said axe.  Plus augmenting his carrying capacity accordingly to help with the defensive situation (full plate was still out of the question though).  While the item in question (double axe) was unique, this forced me into an 'Offense versus Defense' quandry with this particular unit. 

Encumberance accomplished this nicely, and gave players flexibility as to how they would deal with it (lighter armor bigger weapon or vice versa?).  Again, we still had balancing to to, but we were mostly there.  And with all of the traits already in the game, soaking valuable slots up with armor traits was a step backward IMHO, especially as you haven't addressed the fundamental question 'why can't you just put the chain shirt on anyways?'.  As to my lazy comment, Encumberance had multiple values associated with it, a trait has considerably fewer.  So going the trait route was the 'easy way out', and we lose out on an interesting game mechanic in the process, that incidentally WAS working and influencing unit designs and what each Champion/Sov could pack around with them.  Remember that Encumberance focused on more than just armor...

If encumberance flat out didn't work, I'd agree with you.  But it worked quite well, and while it could always be better it was just another implementation that made Elemental cool, and more immersive.  Traits aren't immersive.  Weighing the pros and cons of how heavy something is versus the benefit?  That's a thinking man's game...

 

With your wish for free mana, no traits for amor, etc. I'm seeing a recurring theme: you hate limitations on what you can do while playing a game. I love them, since they make me think. 

Can't agree with you at all there, I had a LOT of thinking to do in E:WOM.  Do I want more speed for a unit, or more Essence?  What about attack strength?  I want another spellcaster, how do I accomplish that and where do I find another Essence potion to get him started? Sure, some of these things were item related, but stat points and where to apply them had a direct and immediate impact on how units functioned.  And mana wasn't any more free than it is now.  Sovs and other spellcasters still relied on shards for their mana regeneration rate, and again had to choose between spells (mana) and martial disciplines for their stat points.  LOTS of stuff to think about right there. 

Do I risk sending units out to track down new heroes, and perhaps conquer an enemy empire or two, or will powerful hordes of monsters show up while they are gone?  Sure, we still have powerful stacks of monsters in E:LH, but you KNOW where they are... and in E:WOM, this was never a given.  Plus, large enemy stacks had this annoying tendency to show up unannounced, which I don't see as much in E:LH (the unannounced part)

Do I risk sending my heroes halfway across the world trying to recruit champions, and leave my cities undefended?  Sure the teleport mechanic helped with this, but Mana wasn't as readily available with individual mana pools, and many spellcasting heroes didn't have enough mana to cast this spell in the first place, or the ability for that matter.  AND, the enemy empires also had teleport, so (if the AI had been buffed) they could have reacted in a similar fashion (teleport home when the empire was in danger).  Was teleport a 'cheat' of sorts?  Probably.  But it made E:WOM unique, and added another strategic problem to consider, as there were only one of you and 8-10 opponents that could use the same tactic simultaneously against you...

The only question I think about with Global mana is whether I have mana available or not, instead of which units have mana and how do I get them to where I need them?  And E:WOM had limitations for sure, just as E:LH does.  But you aren't thinking in the proper context.  E:WOM was never balanced to the degree that E:LH has been combat wise, so if you lift some of the values we've arrived at, and drop them into the E:WOM setting, well you'd see a much better balance game than the one you experienced back in the day.

Also remember that I took advantage of several mods back then, thich took Elemental from a nice game to a fun game.  Kenata's weapons mods, Heavenfall's stuff, and a number of other mods completely changed the E:WOM 1.11 experience, not to mention later iterations (their mods came out during the initial patch flurry), which made Elemental a fun game.  Incidentally, some of the weapon abilities you guys now have in E:LH? Thank Kenata and the other modders for creating some of them, as said modders introduced them in E:WOM...

And remember Elemental's roots.  You'll note that in Galactic Civilizations, how you build your empire is as intriguing and intricate as building your fleet.  With E:LH, the focus has shifted from Empire/Kingdom building to Unit design.  Sure, this is a 4x game, but Empire building is what a LOT of us love about these games.  Combat is fun too, but city design decisions are a huge deal to us.  And I'm sorry, we lost a lot of that with E:LH.  As I said before, I doubt I'll ever have that 'how to I get this city to level 26' moment in Elemental, because cities only have one way to go (once the Conclave/Fort/City route has been decided, which you can't change later btw).  Sure, that initial decision is important, but again, your path is chosen for you before you begin once you've made it.

 

And, again, I don't know why you are bothering.  You obviously have the game you want in LH.  Knock yourself out.  I'm sure I'll be playing it too.  But my work is still ahead of me, that being convincing the team to give a good number of us the E:WOM game WE want to see.  You don't have to come along for the ride, and you certainly don't have to play this other game I'm shooting for.  It's a free world, after all!

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May 14, 2013 5:53:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sorry, double post

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May 14, 2013 7:16:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Disagree, plain and simple. I liked the original EWOM somewhat, although I didn't play it much after beta. FE was far better then EWOM and in my honest opinion, LH is the best of the three. I like it. Some of the things you want can be fixed. Monsters can be made to be more random for example, and stronger. You can make it so that lairs respawn in different spots so even if you destroy a lair, one might pop up some where else.

 

Other things maybe can't be brought back but if some of you would like to come talk about it in my immersion thread then maybe I can come up with some ideas to bring some stuff back or change some of the stuff to what you are hoping for. I wont be able to do it unless people come and have dialogue with me though, I get a lot of my ideas from talking to others and reading what people want.

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May 14, 2013 7:27:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting BlackRainZ,

Disagree, plain and simple. I liked the original EWOM somewhat, although I didn't play it much after beta. FE was far better then EWOM and in my honest opinion, LH is the best of the three. I like it. Some of the things you want can be fixed. Monsters can be made to be more random for example, and stronger. You can make it so that lairs respawn in different spots so even if you destroy a lair, one might pop up some where else.

 

Other things maybe can't be brought back but if some of you would like to come talk about it in my immersion thread then maybe I can come up with some ideas to bring some stuff back or change some of the stuff to what you are hoping for. I wont be able to do it unless people come and have dialogue with me though, I get a lot of my ideas from talking to others and reading what people want.

I've been following your immersion mod thread loosely.  I kinda figured you'd go gangbusters with it once we had an official release, and you had a general idea where the base game values were going to end up, and I do plan on taking it for a spin.  I appreciate your efforts and look forward to the results.

Unfortunately, a lot of what I DO want to see (eventually) is currently beyond the realm of modding.  Dynasties are broken (interface issues), Global Mana is the norm/no way to go back to individual, Stat Points are also now 'unimplemented', again interface issues, boat building I think is gone too, etc. etc. etc., hence me laying some groundwork for the next round.

And since E:WOM wasn't truly 'fixed' in 1.4, well that game is abandoned now so there you go.

LH is it's own game, and I've said SEVERAL times now that isn't the focus/my goal at this point (so you LH lovers, don't worry be happy).  Its Elemental Part 4 I'm thinking about when I bring up these points.  The 'other' crowd, that is some of us Elemental luddites, want Stardock to try again to give us the game they had hoped to deliver fully on, that was suggested on the E:WOM box.

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