My complaints on Legendary Heroes.

Reinventing the wheel never goes well in the end.

By on May 12, 2013 9:22:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

kwm1800

Join Date 03/2008
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It's like watching typical Linux desktop Distro development. For instance, for more than a decade, developers and OEMs have struggling with proper ALSA support. Just when we finally got a stable, nearly fully supported audio system for Linux, BOOM! Suddenly Pulseaudio comes out nowhere because apparently someone needs some features that 99.5% of people won't use ever, making the whole investment on Linux audio moot. The best thing is that the features which are actually so badly needed for people (like, as a just average computer person, I have no knowledge and unwilling to re-compile Kernel or install specific distro just for low-latency support for productive work or just listening to high-quality music.) are ignored to oblivion.

 

And very surprisingly, despite being developed by a company very familiar with Windows development, LH follows the above example.

 

 

1. Reinventing the wheel.... by breaking it further.

 

By no means the whole RPG system in FE is perfect. There are some glare flaws here and there, but it has still far better than 'improved' Legendary Heroes's RPG system. Yes, RNG element is indeed double-edged sword, and I am pretty sure some people still prefer randomized traits over pre-defined paths. From my personal opinion, it is actually a step in right direction, but this is very subjective matter. At best we can say it is 'tweaked', but no way we can claim the current LH system as 'improved'.

The problem is with very short release time, those 'tweaked' features are hardly complete. An example would be removal of encumbrance. Instead of further refine the current system, Stardock decides to remove it entirely and made heroes and troops depended on specific traits. By doing so, a lot of hero items and balance features are completely out of whack.

Sure, these can be fixed later, but my point is that Stardock did not have to do this in the first place. Like, instead of making pre-defined paths and introducing yet another large amount of hard-coded features that making the game further un-moddable as if current state is not enough to troll modders, they could slightly tweak current RNG system and enhance encumbrance system.

Really, those two are probably only needed for the whole hero/RPG system from FE. Other than it needed more contents, the system itself was the most completed feature in FE. There are far more broken things that absolutely need to be fixed, yet Stardock chooses the most finished element and decides to re-invent. And of course, with shorter period it is just mess and half-finished. I mean like outdated XP split system. Please let D&D rules die already and move on to more modern system... like the one FE kinda has.

I am so shocked that somehow LH turned out to be far less completed game than FE, despite further man-power and assets have been poured.

 

 

2. Ignored crucial aspects..... get ignored, AGAIN.

 

There are issues that are as old as WOM days, only to be never fixed and properly ignored, while new problems keep coming out, only to be (again) not fixed. One of the biggest problem is that AI never plays with same rule as player. Yes, no way AI can handle quests as human players do, but that's not my point. There are things AI simply ignores while players cannot ignore, such as....

 

Treaties and pretty much the whole diplomacy as whole.

Resources and research bonuses (probably byproduct of diplomacy issue)

Glitches caused by the game engine (infamous city raze issue.)

 

No, I don't expect AI to be good in the first place. With current technologies, AI sucks and will be bad for my lifetime. What I want is that AIs should follow the same rules that applied upon players. Currently it does not happen at all. Today I see the resource stat of AIs again.... and AGAIN I see negative resources such as -245 metal and -100 mana. Why a human player cannot have negative resources when AI can. Either a human player should have access to go negative resource or AIs should not allow to have go negative resources. There are more issues such as broken modding and never-fulfilled promises on illusive python conversation, and dry 4X elements as well.

 

 

3. Some get actually improved/fixed/added. But do they outweigh negative points?

 

Sure, we got a new campaign. While it is really nothing more than a custom game with pre-defined positions and quests, but I do see some efforts are done on the campaign. I also see there are some new quests a.k.a random events to sauce the game with new items, which I like. But there are just too few to say LH is better than FE. If Stardock did not waste effort and money on reinventing hero parts, and instead focused on adding more quests, more items and more new monsters, LH would had been actually worthwhile to buy it.

 

 

4. The problems of Elemental... From least problematic to the most severe issue that making the game not-worthwhile.

 

Currently, I say LH worth probably 20 bucks or less IF a buyer is a first buyer for Elemental series. For those who bought FE already, even upgrade price is not really worth it.... if the prices go below 5 bucks, do consider picking it up for added contents alone. FE is still the most wise/best choice and it is definitely worth for current price (30 bucks) Those who have not picked up EF yet, you guys should pick up FE already. FE is far better than WoM and definitely better than LH despite having less contents.

Now, in order to make LH to be worth for 40 bucks, and making following expansions/DLC/new games Stardock worth to consider buying, following things should happen, to the least important to the most important.

 

(6) There needs to be the whole balance overhaul. Thanks to unnecessary tweaks, the game balance is just... destroyed. Someone needs to pick the pieces and put it together to match the quality of FE.

Why this is no.6 : Balance is also a subjective matter, and can be fixed/tweaked to good extent, even with bare-minimum modding capability the game has.

 

(5) The game needs more contents. For example, we need crapload of 'Epic' quests, some more 'Deadly' quests and a few 'Strong' quests. And a new item or two.

Why this is no.5 : Like balance issue, adding things aren't hard except asset parts. And the game already has a lot of contents.... only problem is the concentration of contents distributed is unbalanced.

 

(4) There are just so many bugs it is not even funny (almost as bad as Minecraft case). We need to fix the game before add any more stuffs.

Why this is no.4 : Fortunately, the game is definitely well-playable for most of people, and most of bugs are only recognizable only when players get used to the game and know the mechanics.

 

(3) AIs : No I don't mean making AIs smarter. What I want is AIs should follow the same rules as human player forced to follow. Otherwise a human player and AIs play different game. This completely breaks immersion of the game. Seriously no more negative resources, ridiculous diplomacy please.

Why this is no.3 : Other games aren't that better. Only problem is that Elemental's AIs are not playing same rules. Otherwise thanks to Brad's skill, other parts of AIs are quite decent.

 

(2) Modding : Seriously, there is a reason why almost all of old-timers and prominent modders stopped working on the game. DLCs and expansion packs in this age won't save your game and restore your company's reputation, but good modding support will. 

Why this is no.2 : Modding alone can fix all above 4 problems by itself. If we can mod the AI and mod without bugs, hard-coded stuffs and inconsistencies, I would be modding the game right now instead of making this another whining post, and modding section would had been much more vivid. Still, I must admit even modding is not the most severe problem of this game... so here no.1 comes...

 

(1) Boring early game : My opinion on early game of ALL of Stardock's 4X games, with few reservations : unbelievably bad.

Just go play games like even... heck, Warlock : Master Of Arcane. The difference is so huge in this aspect that makes people wonder whether Stardock is intentionally trying to make a boring game.

Actually this early game issue has been kept improving (yes, WoM has much worse early game. Believe it or not), but still, the early game is like a chore which is supposed to be attract players to play the game more. Yes, quests really helped this issue, among with all of tweaks being done, but we still need MORE early game spells, MORE choices, and MORE interesting stuffs to explore about. Make base movement allowance to 3 from 2, and buff ALL professions, including even so-called overpowered BeastLord and Armorer. And all factions should be able to make more interesting units other than spearmen, militia, scout and pioneer.

Why this is no.1 : Despite it is also can be fixed by modding (wow, modding is indeed a magic wand, isn't it?) the issue has been so overdue yet so severe that needs immediate fixes before the interests in this game dies away.

 

 

 

 

Last thought before I finish this post : Stardock complains people whine too much compared to other forums. I choked myself when I first read such statement. This is the most stupid comment/claim I've ever heard from both the Internet and real life.

 

People whine at something because they like it and want something more, and willing to pay if the company delivers. If people decide the company won't do it and lost faith, they will simply walk away, not whine. I mean, why they have to waste their time when it is just not worth to do so? Like Demigod forum pretty much dead after 3 months of the release, and pitiful post counts on SupCom 2 related forums, people will stop whine and stop paying attention to the company. Do you see any forums still discussing about Dragon Age 2? No, you actually see more posts about Dragon Age Origin. If the amount of whining posts has declined in forums, it means that customers lost interests in your products, and they are probably not going to come back (and everyone probably knows getting a new customer is several times harder than retaining a current customer, right?)

I bought Elemental : Limited Edition and also bought FE on steam despite I did not have to. And I pretty much bought all of Stardock's games til this point. After how modding support went and incidents happened here and there, I am not sure if I buy any Stardock's games in future. Sure, I will be probably buy some more Elemental DLC/Expansions since I have already invested in Elemental, but no way I will buy any new games right away after all of these problems.

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May 12, 2013 9:49:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,
(1) Boring early game : My opinion on early game of ALL of Stardock's 4X games, with few reservations : unbelievably bad.

Just go play games like even... heck, Warlock : Master Of Arcane. The difference is so huge in this aspect that makes people wonder whether Stardock is intentionally trying to make a boring game.

Actually this early game issue has been kept improving (yes, WoM has much worse early game. Believe it or not), but still, the early game is like a chore which is supposed to be attract players to play the game more. Yes, quests really helped this issue, among with all of tweaks being done, but we still need MORE early game spells, MORE choices, and MORE interesting stuffs to explore about. Make base movement allowance to 3 from 2, and buff ALL professions, including even so-called overpowered BeastLord and Armorer. And all factions should be able to make more interesting units other than spearmen, militia, scout and pioneer.

Why this is no.1 : Despite it is also can be fixed by modding (wow, modding is indeed a magic wand, isn't it?) the issue has been so overdue yet so severe that needs immediate fixes before the interests in this game dies away.

 

Interestingly enough, I completely disagree with you here. I think early game is actually the most fun part of the entire game with the most interesting strategic choices. It is fun to create your faction and sovereign, to uncover the map (or your immediate neighborhood if it is a large map) and identify important locations and dangerous monsters, to build up your infrastructure and expand while at the same time training your troops to get rid of the ever-lurking creatures around you that might be in the way of the desired spot for your next city, to get experience and decide which way to go with your champions, to keep the competing factions at bay.

It tends to get boring much later on when you reach mid to end game and your empire has been established. You reach a point where (if you survived that long) enemies are no real threat anymore, the research only provides for simple added numbers and all you can do is conquer the hapless competition or roam the map for quests that are not really that helpful anymore.
 

Last thought before I finish this post : Stardock complains people whine too much compared to other forums. I choked myself when I first read such statement. This is the most stupid comment/claim I've ever heard from both the Internet and real life.


 They have? Can you quote a post to support this?

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May 12, 2013 10:15:27 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

May not be the most elegant post ever, but it rings true.

SD, please read, then go back over the main points again in reverse.

Push your chair away from your desk, stand up and take a step back, (maybe even go for a run / grab a beer / etc..), then sit down and play the game for a bit, as if it was your first time.  Games are no different than any other communications media with regard to how important your introduction is.  In this case - the first 50~100 turns.  I know this is asking the impossible, but the exercise is one of the most crucial and productive practices in any creative field: it will be well worth your time.

And thanks again!

 

Edit: The exercise can be taken a step further by doing the same with any competing products..

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May 13, 2013 12:26:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I DO have a long laundry list of things that are bothering me about Elemental: Legendary Heroes.  At this point, however, being within 2 weeks of scheduled release, I am holding back (yeah, reading my other recent posts, it might not seem like it, but there are a LOT of issues I'd like to discuss).  At this point, I've accepted that what we see now in the beta is what we are going to end up with, with some last minute tweaks, and a good number of people seem fairly happy with the result (I'm in the somewhat underwhelmed category).

Once we see release, I'm sure that myself and some other modders will try a few things, but I do want to see a LOOONG open discussion amongst regulars here about what is working and what could be better before Stardock goes for Round 4.  In short, I see a lot of missed potential in the design.  Sure it's fairly fun, but it could be soooooo much better with a fresh look.  I'd love to see a 'Wish List/Suggestions forum' added once LH is released, so that we can separate the 'what should be in the game' discussions from the 'this isn't working/I love this/etc.' threads.

Elemental still intrigues me, and I'm glad to see a good number of the reviewers being fairly happy with E:FE and some of the initial E:LH previews have also been kind.  But Elemental COULD be a 9.5 out of 10/10 out of 10, and I don't think it's there yet.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of angst resulted when Elemental:War Of Magic was first released.  If it had been stable, I think it would have received a much better reception, and some of the concepts the team tried in that design would have held up better.  But because people get annoyed when games crash, they start LOOKING for other reasons to hate the game, and want sweeping changes, instead of giving the design a fair chance.

And, as the OP did mention above, even now some things haven't been given the love and attention that they probably deserve, because we've been too busy focusing on other aspects of the game.  As an example, Diplomacy could be SOOOOOO much better, but I think that's a discussion for the wish list thread for future versions, as it works OK now and we want people to stay interested in the game so we CAN see another sequel.

And, I will fully support the NEXT version of Elemental not being free.  E:WOM is effectively finished, and I think Stardock has been more than generous in giving us early adopters two free games/expansions at this point.

What I'd love to see going forward would be a 'Stand Alone' expansion that revisits the E:WOM setting and upgrades all versions, incorporating a good number of the current concepts and engine fixes, with the work focusing on fixing things in the original E:WOM that weren't given a 'proper shake', such as boats and dynasties, and (in my own personal opinion) properly implemented Individual Mana pools.  And I'd think that this expansion should cost at least $10 at this point (more if you haven't already bought into the franchise).  But again, at this point I think it best to separate this discussion from E:LH, as overall E:LH isn't too bad of a game, and can be enjoyable the first few times. 

I'd envision this expansion as more of a 'revisit/balance expansion', not re-inventing the wheel which can take much longer to do, and drive up developments costs a lot.  There are a lot of concepts from the original E:WOM still in the code, which of course will need tweaking, so focusing on them and letting the modders/community point the way on balancing issues and such would keep costs down.

As an example of what I'm thinking, r.e. Dynasties and game balance, I'd love to see situations where you WANT/NEED to merge two empires, to counter some other threat in the game.  You spend some time cultivating the relationship with said empire/kingdom (lots of trading interaction and such), and where 'Hey, these guys are beating up on me, come help' actually had a strong reward mechanism for doing so, rather than just being some random diplomatic issue that you can sorta kinda ignore, while giving lip service of course.  Alliances are often cemented with marriages, but said potential ally won't just marry anyone, hence your need to score points with them, all the while dealing with whatever menacing empire(s) or kingdoms that are giving both of you grief.  And, of course, you can always try to go it alone, but this would bring more meaning to Diplomatic Victories and such.  Example: The Tarth/Pariden Alliance has become effectively unshakable, so do we take them out or appease them?  Oh, and just for fun you could borrow 'spies' from GC to intoduce intrigue into one or both courts of said alliance.

Oh, and to borrow a concept from another fave game of mine, whenever you conquer a city, you have "Occupy, Pillage or Raze' as options, with Pillaging destroying some/a lot of structures for resources but the city stays somewhat intact.  Even Occupy should probably have some collateral damage.  These three decisions become VERY IMPORTANT in diplomacy, if a workable surrender structure is implemented. Kingdoms/Empires might be more willing to surrender if you are nice to their cities during your campaign.  And, sparing a city (we won, but you can keep your city) might make for an interesting twist for Diplomacy... just possibly leading to an alliance down the road.  And an opposing Sovereign just might join your ranks (as a Champion type) rather than fighting to the death, depending on how 'clean' you've kept things and if he's more pissed at another Kingdom/Empire that has been destroying his/her empire. Or not...

Diplomacy alone has SOOOO MUCH potential!

Looking at where the game is now, I can only imagine how cool E:WOM would have been with the current engine and some balancing/tweaking (but not flat out changes).  Maybe if I win the lottery or something...

So, in my assessment, I think it's time to accept what we can't change, as release is upon us, and start the ideas/suggestions discussion for the next version in a fresh setting.  All the while expecting Stardock to continue quashing bugs in E:LH in the short term, of course!

 

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May 13, 2013 3:04:23 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Last thought before I finish this post : Stardock complains people whine too much compared to other forums. I choked myself when I first read such statement. This is the most stupid comment/claim I've ever heard from both the Internet and real life.

Is that a frog's squish-steps I hear in the distance?  Is he coming to welcome you to the inner circle of "Entitled Gamers"?

Oh, and if you want more in-depth modding all you need to do is reverse-engineer the source code, or whatever they used to do back in 1843 when Frogboy was modding.

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May 13, 2013 5:53:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Very well written and detailed post kvm1800. I agree with most of what you say, and specially with the feeling that too many efforts have been spent in reinventing the wheel. Yes, that was not the perfect wheel, but there was no need to reinvent it either, specially when other parts of the game where (are) in a lot more need of attention, and there was no need to substitute the old wheel by a new half baked wheel which is again a non-perfect wheel and IMHO an even worse wheel that the one it is substituting.

Also you make a good point in how unmoddable those new aspects are. Not being to change champion paths is a big issue. Maybe that will be solved in later patches, but right now that's how it works And I am curious why encumbrance and random skills cannot be accessed through modding. After all the work is done, so why not allow modders to use it if they want?

I also agree that by far FE is much better game than LH, because the few additions of LH don't compensate. Curiously enough, my feeling with 0.50 was different, I felt like "Wow, that's a pretty great game for just version 0.50!" but versions have succeeded and that feeling changed for worse.

Also there is something I wonder about. Why worry to make a game with such great lore as Elemental and then put so few effort in the campaigns? Aren't campaigns supposed to capitalize and expand on the lore? After all those years I still remember Julia from Age of Wonders or Crag Hack, Tarnum, Gem and Sandro from Heroes of Might and Magic III and that's thanks to the great campaigns those games have.

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May 13, 2013 5:59:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting tjashen,

Looking at where the game is now, I can only imagine how cool E:WOM would have been with the current engine and some balancing/tweaking (but not flat out changes).  Maybe if I win the lottery or something...

So, in my assessment, I think it's time to accept what we can't change, as release is upon us, and start the ideas/suggestions discussion for the next version in a fresh setting.  All the while expecting Stardock to continue quashing bugs in E:LH in the short term, of course!

 

I agree with you. Too much resorting to the "let's change it" instead of the "let's fix it".

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May 13, 2013 6:02:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes, I think they have thrown some things out too easily.  The way you work at improving a particular mechanic affects how well it turns out, but a lot of it has thrown the baby out too.  If you don't do a good job improving a certain mechanic, then of course it won't work.  It doesn't mean the mechanic itself is flawed, just that the improvement process is flawed.  Everytime you throw out a mechanic that could work, you essentially go back to square one.

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May 13, 2013 7:56:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Regarding modding issue: the more modifiable a game is, the longer its 'shelf life' lasts. Just take a look at Fallout 3, a very old game time wise. Yet a brand new, entire stage setting is about to be released by players and fans - (called a 'total conversion' in some circles). SureAI did the same thing for Oblivion. SD would be well advised to make their game, via modding tools, as modifiable as possible (by fans). Want the longevity of Fallout and Morrorwind-oblivion-skyrim? Then make LH as easy to mod as these two franchises' games. Take a look at the Nexus site, and compare the elemental franchise (number/depth of mods) with oblivion, or skyrim, about the same length of time after their respective releases. Notice something? The relative sparsity of elemental mods is due, in part to this pattern of behavior by the SD game developers: Example: How SD handled one game area [dynastic] needing 'balancing / adjustment. Did they leave it in the game, making it an option players could chose,or leave out of their game via a check mark at game world set up? [-ie, make it an optional module.] No, they eliminated it. They threw the baby out with the bath water! When some players decried the dynastic system - SD killed it off (double entendre intended). [I understand its buried in the code, still]. In stead of revising/fixing/expanding the game by merely making changes in the code, make tools to change/edit code, and, make those tools available to the players/modders/fans. Its all about player power to customize the game world environment. [[I have no way of knowing the following as I'm not one of the insiders on these forums: Please apply the lesson you learned in how you organized your team in putting together the original EWOM (scattered teams - no central focusing mechanism). This minimal user access to modding the game in a significant manner *may* be related to how your entire design flow is set up.]]

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May 13, 2013 8:16:24 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting phazonfreak,


 They have? Can you quote a post to support this?

To be fair, Brad has used the term "entitement", quite a lot.

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May 13, 2013 8:33:16 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

What's confuses me is why the diplomacy in FE/LH is so lacking, when we all know how good it can be from GC2.

 

 

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May 13, 2013 10:25:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Lol. Thus is the kind of post that could be quoted for a cracked.com article on why gaming entitlement.

i love this quote:

(1) Boring early game : My opinion on early game of ALL of Stardock's 4X games, with few reservations : unbelievably bad.

 
 
the question post people will want to know if whether legendary heroes, an expansion pack, is better than fallen enchantress and that is a resounding yes.  Is there anyone in even this cesspool of a thread who is willing to say that think Fallen Enchantress is better? Of course not.
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May 13, 2013 10:30:53 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This thread is really embarrassing. It makes our community look like a bunch of comic book guys.

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May 13, 2013 10:44:53 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Mmrnmhrm,
Lol. Thus is the kind of post that could be quoted for a cracked.com article on why gaming entitlement.


(1) Boring early game : My opinion on early game of ALL of Stardock's 4X games, with few reservations : unbelievably bad.

 

While I disagree with the OP's statement referenced above, it is his opinion. It is not entitlement.

It's really bad when the rabid fan boys label any contrary opinion as entitlement. It's an attempt at silencing differing opinions through shaming/mocking.

Kind of like political correctness.

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May 13, 2013 10:46:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Eh, it's fine.  They wanted to push FE/LH out to a wider audience, that means a broader range of loons on the forums.

tldr; this is not the game kwm1800 would have designed.

But my favorite part of this is the way he did the numbering so that it starts in ascending order and ends in descending order.

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May 13, 2013 10:47:02 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Xan,

This thread is really embarrassing. It makes our community look like a bunch of comic book guys.

Please refrain from personal attacks, xan.

We do read through the threads and we are aware that our hard core fans, especially the ones from the beginning, aren't happy about the removal of encumbrance.  The battle between complexity vs. focus has been with us for as long as games have been around.

Kael and Frogboy and Soren concluded that encumbrance was a mechanic that was convoluted and implied complexity and depth that just didn't exist. But we do know that it's removal changed the way the game is played and that some of our most loyal players miss that way of playing. E.g. Getting horses lowed enc. which in turn let you wear heavier armor as opposed to needing to spend for armor proficiency separately. that heir goal is for the player to have to make interesting choices. Not being able to make uber units that can do it all is less satisfying if you are used to it, but it does make it a better game IMHO. 

I am sure someone else could say what I said more elegantly than I have. I just think some of you are resorting to hyperbole to try to get your way And that isn't fair to those of us who think the game needed these kinds of changes.

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May 13, 2013 10:48:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Borg999,
It's really bad when the rabid fan boys label any contrary opinion as entitlement. It's an attempt at silencing differing opinions through shaming/mocking.

Kind of like political correctness.

But it's not bad when you label people who disagree as "rabid fan boys"?  Come on, man.  Get it together.

 

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May 13, 2013 10:53:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't disagree with the OP, but I'm pretty willing to attribute most things to personal preference. Some people love the game and some don't.

But, the one (legitimate, IMO) gripe that I do have is that it's gotten harder, not easier, to modify core aspects of the game with the latest release. I remember waaay back it was suggested by the higher ups that we could easily be playing total conversion mods set in a fallout-style world or something similar.

That seems fairly unrealistic now, to put it mildly.

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May 13, 2013 11:01:25 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

@istari, sorry.

@boorg. I'm a fan Boy? Lol. l was one of the most prolific posters saying that Demigod needed more multiplayer stress testing before it went out.  I was the first War of Magic poster after it shipped to post here that they had failed and it wasn't fun.

entitlement isn't having a contrary opinion. Entitlement is demanding changes because you are owed them somehow and using exaggeration and "hyperbole" to imply something that has no basis in reality. See the OP for an example.

Stardock doesn't owe you the game you imagine in your head. 

I bought Eador and its a total piece of crap. But I don't hang out on their forums demanding that they "fix" it to be the game I believed they implied it to be.  Same with Warlock. That game implied it was going to be a fantasy Civilization game when it's just a shallow tactical battle in a big map game.

The Elemental games promised me that they were going to be in the same spirit as Master of Magic. That's what I want. MOM is a fun 4x game with simple but satisfying tactical battles. LH comes closer to any other game right now to delivering that.

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May 13, 2013 11:28:26 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree with some of this. I own several other strategy games (Warlock, Civ5, Eador, Endless Space) and I usually prefer real time strategy such as Supreme Commander. I have to say this is by far my favorite turn based game. I have over 90 hours just in LH and over 100 in FE and I love both games. I enjoy LH more. I think the changes to the game made it more fun.

 

I don't know if I"m a 'hardcore' fan or whatever that means, but I do know modding means nothing to me. I have 200 games on steam and I play whatever seems good that day (I'm a father with small children, I get to play at night when the wife steals the TV and the kids are in bed, turn based games are becoming a new staple since I can quit on a dime). I prefer the devs not waste time with modding at all and just make a fun game. The games that have great modding tend to have bland games because of it (I"m looking at you oblivion and skyrim....the mods are the only things that make those games even playable...).

 

I do agree with some of the balance issues, but that stuff is minor and is always being tweaked, what I care about the most is how much fun I have with the game. I got this game for free, and I can't wait to buy the map pack for it. Not because I care about the map pack, but the game is so good I want to reward the devs with something for all they're hard work.

 

I love this game, I think the devs are amazing and have done an amazing job. Please continue focusing on making a fun game, that trumps all else in my opinion.

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May 13, 2013 11:42:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Mmrnmhrm,

Lol. Thus is the kind of post that could be quoted for a cracked.com article on why gaming entitlement.

i love this quote:



(1) Boring early game : My opinion on early game of ALL of Stardock's 4X games, with few reservations : unbelievably bad.

 
 
the question post people will want to know if whether legendary heroes, an expansion pack, is better than fallen enchantress and that is a resounding yes.  Is there anyone in even this cesspool of a thread who is willing to say that think Fallen Enchantress is better? Of course not.

In fact that's the only thing in which I disagree with the OP, but I believe he is completely right in everything else. So the fact that this specific point is wrong does not invalidate the rest of his well exposed and detailed argument.

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May 13, 2013 11:52:58 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

..Should've just removed all the initiative modifiers that are baked directly into weapons (except magical), instead of the entire encumbrance system.  Weapon weights, and the initiative penalties of the different encumbrance levels just needed some attention; especially concerning casting.

 

Edit: I do feel however that this thread is attempting to communicate much more to the devs than merely discontent over the removal of the encumbrance system.  The title is "Final verdicts on Legendary Heroes", and the OP is directing the test community to discuss the general direction that the developers are taking the franchise, as well as the areas of the game that are receiving the brunt of their attention.

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May 13, 2013 1:13:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting StevenAus,
Yes, I think they have thrown some things out too easily.  The way you work at improving a particular mechanic affects how well it turns out, but a lot of it has thrown the baby out too.  If you don't do a good job improving a certain mechanic, then of course it won't work.  It doesn't mean the mechanic itself is flawed, just that the improvement process is flawed.  Everytime you throw out a mechanic that could work, you essentially go back to square one.

Yeah, that happened sadly many times during the development of WoM, FE and LH, but i guess that this can be fixed with the DLCs for LH:

Quoting Frogboy,

I'm not sure where we'll go after Legendary Heroes. I guess it depends on sales.

I do know there's a lot of DLC plans (loot, maps, spells, equipment, etc.). But in terms of the overall direction of the Elemental universe, that remains to be seen.

Right now, we've been fortunate enough to get some amazing talent that's on board ready to do whatever comes next.  We've got Dorian (who was largely responsible for the general look of Civ V), Tom Symonds, who did a lot of the Civ V modeling and of course Soren who designed Civilization IV. And that doesn't include Jon (Shafer) who is working on his own game but generously provides help and feedback regularly.

I would imagine Legendary Heroes is going to be the definitive edition of Fallen Enchantress with what comes after being sometime in the future and being as different from Fallen Enchantress as Fallen Enchantress was from War of Magic.

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May 13, 2013 1:57:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Istari,


Quoting Xan, reply 12
This thread is really embarrassing. It makes our community look like a bunch of comic book guys.

Please refrain from personal attacks, xan.

We do read through the threads and we are aware that our hard core fans, especially the ones from the beginning, aren't happy about the removal of encumbrance.  The battle between complexity vs. focus has been with us for as long as games have been around.

Kael and Frogboy and Soren concluded that encumbrance was a mechanic that was convoluted and implied complexity and depth that just didn't exist. But we do know that it's removal changed the way the game is played and that some of our most loyal players miss that way of playing. E.g. Getting horses lowed enc. which in turn let you wear heavier armor as opposed to needing to spend for armor proficiency separately. that heir goal is for the player to have to make interesting choices. Not being able to make uber units that can do it all is less satisfying if you are used to it, but it does make it a better game IMHO. 

I am sure someone else could say what I said more elegantly than I have. I just think some of you are resorting to hyperbole to try to get your way And that isn't fair to those of us who think the game needed these kinds of changes.

While Encumberance is on my list, so is the removal of stat points, removal of boats, removal of Dynasties, how City Building now works versus how it used to work (some good, some bad), the 'hot button' Mana Pool issue (we will forever be divided on this one global versus individual pools), how lairs now work, removal of 'build and train at the same time', removal of separate tech trees for Kingdom and Empire (we went backwards, not forward on this, we should have multiple tech trees by now), weapon/armor/combat balance, actual dungeons versus some dungeon-ey looking map, lacking implementation of Diplomacy (already detailed above), (lack of) XP gain issues for administrators, limited modding options of the traits tree, and a number of other issues.

AND, one of the things modders have been asking for is that when you 'orphan' a feature, that we still have access to it for our mods.  Some things are still available, others aren't, or are effectively broken at this point.  Because a number of things have been moved beyond our reach, we can't very easily demonstrate to you developer types what we are thinking would work better in Elemental (or prove to ourselves it's not necessarily better).

And, a number of people have suggested check boxes for game options multiple times now, for (pick your old favorite thing).  The more customizable a game is during setup, the more reasons to go back and replay it later (what if I tried this option instead of this other option).

Here's an example of what I've seen in other games:

WebPlayCiv forum posts

Scroll down to post 16, and you'll note a number of options to choose from when setting up your game for Alpha Centauri.  While I'm sure there are better examples out there, this illustrates HOW you can allow for more options in setup, and allow players to customize the Elemental experience to THEIR tastes.  The ability to make the game more your own adds to the mystique, and hence a person's attachment to this game.

Sure, you might not want to play with 'Advanced Diplomatic Options' as an example, but someone else might.  This also allows players to set the parameters in advance r.e. how long they are looking for in a go round with a given scenario.  Want a short game? Uncheck a bunch of 'advanced features'.  Want a LOT of stuff to think about?  Check a bunch of options.  You get my meaning.

Yes, Elemental does have a few options during game setup.  But it could have a bunch more.

 

But I digress.  A lot of us want the same thing here.  A totally kickass game.  Sure, we may differ as to what we think works and doesn't work, but the overall goal is satisfaction and replayability.  The more people replay a game, the more willing they will be to tell their friends about it, and the more willing they will be to get expansions and such.  You guys have your sales numbers, so you know just how well E:WOM and E:FE have done.  But imagine if those numbers could be double or triple what they are now?

Gaming is a 'side thing' with Stardock, sure, but you have a whole community of gamers here that are willing to put in the work for a great product.  You do utilize us to a degree, but give us more tools so we can 'pay it forward' by more completely augmenting the Elemental experience, and y'all will benefit.

 

Freelancer has some pretty extensive mods, and that game is MUCH harder to mod than this one.  By comparison, many have made efforts to mod Elemental, and ended up leaving this community in frustration.  I'm in the often frustrated camp myself, but am still willing to try, as are others.  Elemental SHOULD have as rabid a modder base as a number of the other classics, but how moddable the game is really falls in Stardock's court (short of reverse-engineering the code, which I believe violates the EULA).  Think about that.

 

Apologies, this post is longer than I intended, but I'm trying to convey the magnitude of the situation.  Thank you for reading at least.

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May 13, 2013 2:14:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting tjashen,
But imagine if those numbers could be double or triple what they are now?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that mods, like MP, only boost sales on the margins (that is, anecdotally).  Most people who buy FE/LH will play the content that Stardock provides and nothing else.  And it's not like the vanilla game doesn't already provide a ton of replayability.

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May 13, 2013 2:22:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I disagree with a lot of what the OP said. I think LH is an much better game than FE, despite its flaws. I do wish they had at least another month to work on bug fixes, balancing and AI however.

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