Tactical Battle Eador vs LH

By on May 10, 2013 7:14:41 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

salikgyula

Join Date 02/2012
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I played some hours with Eador and i am back now to LH, to try the scenario.

I am stunned now how bad, shallow, meaningless is the tactical battle in LH.

In erador if i play well i can win the battle without losses, if i play wrong my complet army is dead.

Every move, attack and counter attack actually matters.

Here in LH it is nothing like that. Most of the battles i can win if i dont do anything, just clicking the attack on the nearest enemy.

Why is that?

We have chainmail, platemail, we have different weapons, we have mounts, in LH, and we can edit units, still the tactical battle does not matters. It is not matters how you move who you attack ther is no punishment. There is sometimes a lucky hit from the AI, and you dont know why your hero was slain in 1 hit, that is punishment but not the right one...

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May 10, 2013 7:25:23 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I played some hours with Eador and i am back now to LH, to try the scenario.

I am stunned now how bad, shallow, meaningless is the tactical battle in LH.

In erador if i play well i can win the battle without losses, if i play wrong my complet army is dead.

Every move, attack and counter attack actually matters.

Here in LH it is nothing like that. Most of the battles i can win if i dont do anything, just clicking the attack on the nearest enemy.

Why is that?

We have chainmail, platemail, we have different weapons, we have mounts, in LH, and we can edit units, still the tactical battle does not matters. It is not matters how you move who you attack ther is no punishment. There is sometimes a lucky hit from the AI, and you dont know why your hero was slain in 1 hit, that is punishment but not the right one...

 

Despite this, the auto resolve manages to lose the entire army in fights I don't even lose hp.

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May 10, 2013 7:27:31 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Eador >> LH, both in tactical battles and also as a game overall. 

The problem is that LH has many half-baked fiddly-piddly features that could be theoretically awesome, but just do not work at all when put together. Eador has much more solid mechanics and game design, both in and out of combat. 

For example, I like the dilemma of hiring cheap, effective but evil units like robbers for short-term edge, versus not using them, and not taking the long-term "karma" hits. Stuff like that was in Galciv 2, but not in FE/LH. Also, troop incompatibilities across alignments is a nice touch. 

The tactical battles just use what works - the good old hex-based wargame system, with terrain modifiers. LH had to reinvent the wheel, and ended up with five-pointed wheel with jingly bells - while it turns and propels the vehicle, it provides a very bumpy ride.

There is a solid effort behind FE/LH, but the tactical combat just does not cut it yet. The worst thing IMO is the fact that units do not counter-attack like in Wesnoth, Eador, Mom, and every other game around. This result in ganging syndrome - no matter how good a unit is, when the enemy (especially ranged troops) focus on it, they kill it in one round. Nothing you can do about it. The fact that the combatants start in close proximity does not help it either. Then you have terrain that has no meaning - lot's of fluff, but the maps are the same.

Well, I rather shut up now... 

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May 10, 2013 9:08:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well, the truth is that tactical combat never really was the main focus of the Elemental series. It was always designed around the idea that it offers quick and moderately tactical decisions but that the overall army strength is the deciding factor.

The focus is on the civilizing of the wild lands and on empire building in a heavily customizable sandbox mode. For all its neat gameplay concerning tactical battles, Eador does not offer that.

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May 10, 2013 10:18:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

that's interesting. i bought eador about two weeks ago, played for a week or so and stopped playing it after that point. tactical battles are interesting in eador, but they tend to be rather repetitive and slow. the strategic layer has some features that make it interesting, but unfortunately the overarching campaign is pretty much broken, which is one of the reasons why i shelved it for now. the different shards are interesting, but despite the little perks (like worlds of war/knowledge/magic etc.) the game tends to feel repetitive overall after you cleared the first few shards. imo, LH offers more variety.

 maybe i'll play it some more when they fix the campaign (maybe they already have, haven't checked their boards in the last few days)

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May 10, 2013 11:41:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Eador can be played as LH - just choose a big shard with lots of opponents and have fun (i also find a campaign too long).

I agree with OP - LH tactical battles are not so fun, but devs always made it clear they do not want to put too much emphasis on it. I cannot really understand this approach - all this cool self-designed troops and straight forward-no challenge tactical battles with no way to enjoy your power ... Also in Eador auto-battles are actually pretty good compared to LH.

 

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May 10, 2013 11:52:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Seriously ? I played the release version of Eador and I found it very bad. It's battles in comparison to HoMnM are very unblalanced and annoying, and the campaign interface is completely unintuitive, so I ended up uninstalling it. 

On the point LH tactical battles are not by far its strong point (like its Diplomacy) but I don't think there is actually so hard to fix them, like by adding some bonus tiles and stuff. With the new weapon abilities you can perform some interesting manuevers but its not there yet. 

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May 10, 2013 1:01:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The be all, end all of LH tactical battles are directly tied to your heroes development & gear, and strategic map control (mainly on resources so you can build better troops with more bonuses or upgrade existing ones) and obviously, shards upgraded. Any tactical spell that benefits from shards power increases exponentially with the number of shards your empire / kingdom controls. Those dictate the outcome of battles more than "stronger armies" can do.

Sincerely how many times did you beat that deadly / epic enemy with just a medium / strong army because of previous mentioned factors? Spells do affect the outcomes of a fight and are one of the most important aspect of LH (which is good and completely in theme with the game universe).

 

Comparing the tactical battles between different 4x games is not really a way to show that LH has a bad / undeveloped tactical combat. Some games main point is tactical battle while they lack severely in other departments. Other games have balanced 4x elements.

Civ5 battles are not really engaging or super tactical, higher number of troops / tech / promotions wins even with a bad general (like moving your artillery in front line). HoMM never had engaging battles, especially with latest series 6 (which to me personally was a huge disappointment after 5), all it had going for it was the anime feel of creatures and their animations. Endless space tactical battles are really on a very low level of depth, but they still serve their purpose as far as combat goes.

Can everything be improved? Obviously. How much does this add to game value? Look at Baldur's Gate (1&2) the battles weren't anything to write home about, but still were good enough for their purpose yet didn't hurt the game pace or feeling at all.

I have no problems with LH current version of tactical battles, but I won't say no if they decide to make improvements that are meaningful and add something valuable and not just clutter the tactical phase with unneeded "fancy" stuff.

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May 10, 2013 1:16:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ugh. Eador was easily the most disappointing game I've played in the last year. It is so shallow and clunky. It's one of the few times I would say that someone who likes that game would probably not like LH or vice versa.

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May 10, 2013 2:23:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

i am sad when luck of design, and polish is confirmed this way: "it was not in the focus"

If it was not in the focus why we got:

-self designed units,

-so many armor and weapon types

- trait tree for the heroes

These features are only usable in tactical battles, but right now you dont need it, you just have to click on attack the nearest enemy and win...

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May 10, 2013 2:45:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting salikgyula,

i am sad when luck of design, and polish is confirmed this way: "it was not in the focus"

If it was not in the focus why we got:

-self designed units,

-so many armor and weapon types

- trait tree for the heroes

These features are only usable in tactical battles, but right now you dont need it, you just have to click on attack the nearest enemy and win...

You are over simplifying. By all means don't use armor and weapons except starting ones, don't put a single point in hero trees, and don't design new units. Go and click attack nearest enemy from hard difficulty to insane and let me know how it goes.

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May 10, 2013 2:51:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting salikgyula,

i am sad when luck of design, and polish is confirmed this way: "it was not in the focus"

If it was not in the focus why we got:

-self designed units,

-so many armor and weapon types

- trait tree for the heroes

These features are only usable in tactical battles, but right now you dont need it, you just have to click on attack the nearest enemy and win...

 

Yes, the features are only usable in tactical combat. The thing is, you don't have to manually control them and can simply use autoresolve, which was by the way the only method of combat when War of Magic had a multiplayer mode. Once, when we were young. You can play the entire game without ever going into tactical combat at all.

I understand that tactical combat in LH is disappointing if you are into complex tactical battles with formations, flanking considerations, terrain modificators, etc. LH is not about that, because adding all of these things will shift the focus of the game and will make combat much slower and harder to get into if you are not interested in it.

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May 10, 2013 3:07:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting phazonfreak,


Quoting salikgyula, reply 9
i am sad when luck of design, and polish is confirmed this way: "it was not in the focus"

If it was not in the focus why we got:

-self designed units,

-so many armor and weapon types

- trait tree for the heroes

These features are only usable in tactical battles, but right now you dont need it, you just have to click on attack the nearest enemy and win...

 

Yes, the features are only usable in tactical combat. The thing is, you don't have to manually control them and can simply use autoresolve, which was by the way the only method of combat when War of Magic had a multiplayer mode. Once, when we were young. You can play the entire game without ever going into tactical combat at all.

I understand that tactical combat in LH is disappointing if you are into complex tactical battles with formations, flanking considerations, terrain modificators, etc. LH is not about that, because adding all of these things will shift the focus of the game and will make combat much slower and harder to get into if you are not interested in it.

Actually... as long as you have autoresolve, you can always bypass combat and just autoresolve, regardless of how in depth combat is.

AND, you could add this as a checkbox during scenario setup.  Advanced Combat Options y/n.  That way, if you want a faster game, but don't want to autoresolve either, don't play with the advanced combat options.

Because of the depth of detail in unit design, Elemental just cries out for a better combat system than we have now.  So I hope that the designers will take note of this, and add this as an expansion pack or something.

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May 10, 2013 3:10:27 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

We seem to get quite a few people who compain about tactical combat in FE/LH

I really think there needs to be a disclaimer somewhere.

"FE/LH is not empire total war"...

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May 10, 2013 3:14:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The Borg knows it thumbs up.

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May 10, 2013 3:22:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Threads like these are what inevitably happens when you open the floor to the entire internet.  You get some good ideas, some bad ideas, and a lot of ideas that have nothing to with anything.  Most of it is garbage.  Even the best of the good ideas are probably not going to be useful or take you in the direction you want to go.

And, inevitably, you get people who are sure, absolutely 100% sure, that they could design a better game in their sleep and implement it over a weekend or two.  It's pretty obvious that all you need to do to make LH the 2013 game of the year is X,Y, or Z.

Edit: to add, there's value in all user feedback.  but a few people saying "I like a feature in game X better than a comparable feature in your game" is not very interesting.

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May 10, 2013 3:32:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

hmm i don't find the LH tactical battles that much worse than eador's. eador is harder on the low difficulties and it has more stats (morale/stamina) and terrain features, that gives the battles more depth, but you always get the same premade units and it takes forever to get to even the second tier.

LH is simplistic if you play on low difficulties or avoid challenges. i find the combat quite interesting when i don't turtle half the game, then steamroll everything with super powered T3 units. plus, heroes in LH are a lot more interesting than the heroes in eador.

 eador forces you to expand early, so you pretty much have no choice but to tackle those strong lairs with T1 units and a level 5 champ. LH doesn't really force you to do this, but it doesn't stop you, either. i typically go for the challenging encounters in LH as soon as i can (sometimes too early ), so i don't find it that easy. killing that level 15 dragon on turn 115 with just 3 mid level champs and a handful of archers is far from "press attack to win". 

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May 10, 2013 3:57:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Despite the disagreements about the quality of other turn based strategy games it seems everyone agrees LH tactical fights are meh.  

Saying this is ok because other games have boring fights doesn't make LH any better.

Reading this thread and the fact ppl defend the current state of the game by saying X or Y wasn't part of the development focus prompt me to be blunt, game doesn't shine in any way, every aspect of it is damn boring after 40 hours. 

Customizing units is a great premise but the reality is the upgrade options are boring, + 1 to armor, + 5 armor + 10 to armor, etc. No reason to mix units, no reason not to use the best tech, 1 option from one end to the other.

Customizing and nurturing heroes is another great premise but it also becomes boring soon.  Current hero trees are maybe better than what we had in war of magic or fallen enchantress but is still full of meaningless or boring stuff.  To my experience the classes with most impact on the game are mages and commanders and that's because both classes can buff the armies or the civilization. 99% of the game they are there just to gain xp and pass their turn, the last percent represents the tougher fights vs dragons or wildlands bosses when they stay out of the way and cast buffs/debuffs. 

Research tree also has it's flaws, some of the bonuses gained are completely useless/too far in the tree to have any impact. Ratios for example, camps of asok, dragons, first aid kit, braided belt, first two types of bows , touch of darkness, boots of the spider and i'll probably find others that I never used and won't make any impact on most games. Btw, commander's administrator 3 talent that reduces unrest by 10% in all towns doesn't stack with other administrator 3 talents (or doesn't work at all ). 

Same thing with towns, settle every available spot, repeat roughly the same build order for the type of town. The only reason to alter the build order a bit is to get scarce resources.

Same thing with monsters and quests, all so damn repeatable and eventually boring.

Besides these game also has other design decisions I'm not really fond of: essence and the fact it limits the amount of buffs a town can get, the fact the towns don't gain bonuses by extending in additional tiles, the fact the towns are defenseless on their own (nope, militia is not a defense, not even for a fortress, not even in late game, both monsters and other factions will take your town easily, even without loses), lack of fantasy troupes under player control (except worthless summons and occasional beasts) .

 

To end my rant, game had potential but in the end doesn't deliver and the launch date is too near to see anything getting "in focus".

 

 

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May 10, 2013 4:02:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting tjashen,
Because of the depth of detail in unit design, Elemental just cries out for a better combat system than we have now.  So I hope that the designers will take note of this, and add this as an expansion pack or something.

That sounds very familiar

WoM was on the right track, but was released too early, FE was much better and had so much potential, but was released too early and LH is much better and has so much potential, but will be released too early. I think Stardock should improve the tactical combat, the hero advancement and the magic system, because these are the selling points of LH.

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May 10, 2013 4:22:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wizard1200,



That sounds very familiar

WoM was on the right track, but was released too early, FE was much better and had so much potential, but was released too early and LH is much better and has so much potential, but will be released too early. I think Stardock should improve the tactical combat, the hero advancement and the magic system, because these are the selling points of LH.

This!!

You are missunderstanding me. I play elemental from the beginning and i love the game, i just want better tactical battles, more challange, fixed heroes trait tree.

I dont want autoresolve battles, i want play them. And as Anelyn said i am actually dont put a single point on hero specialization tree, dont using any armor, only the first basic spear and some traits, and i am already steamrolling the scenario with my 1st basic unit. And i did this in normal game on expert level too. And this is a problem.

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May 10, 2013 4:42:47 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting salikgyula,



Quoting Wizard1200,
reply 18



I dont want autoresolve battles, i want play them.

So do I, to a point. By mid game, I just don't have the desire to go into tactical battles with any left over low level monsters.

Better to just auto -resolve and be done with it.

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May 10, 2013 5:46:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Borg999,
So do I, to a point. By mid game, I just don't have the desire to go into tactical battles with any left over low level monsters.

Better to just auto -resolve and be done with it.

 

I really like what they did in heroes vi: you can autoresolve any battle and if you're not happy with the result click a button and play the battle yourself. This saves so much time end game when the army is strong enough to wipe most of the enemies but the auto-resolve occasionally loses some troops. 

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May 10, 2013 7:45:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting salikgyula,

i am sad when luck of design, and polish is confirmed this way: "it was not in the focus"

If it was not in the focus why we got:

-self designed units,

-so many armor and weapon types

- trait tree for the heroes

These features are only usable in tactical battles, but right now you dont need it, you just have to click on attack the nearest enemy and win...

Galactic Civilizations II had user designed units with lots of different weapon and defense types and it didn't have tactical battle at all.

If tactical battles is what you want to focus on, our games aren't really about that.  The point of tactical battles is for players to see the results of their strategic choices. 

There are lots of good games out there that revolve around tactical battles. This game isn't one of them.

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May 11, 2013 12:50:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
If tactical battles is what you want to focus on, our games aren't really about that.  The point of tactical battles is for players to see the results of their strategic choices. 

There are lots of good games out there that revolve around tactical battles. This game isn't one of them.

I am sorry, but in this case you wasted so much effort with the creation of the swarm mechanic, the weapon abilities, the tactical abilities of heroes and the tactical spells.

In my opinion the game has evolved from a strategical game (WoM) to a strategical AND tactical game (FE and especially LH) and this change is amazing, because it makes the game much more interesting.

Quoting Borg999,
So do I, to a point. By mid game, I just don't have the desire to go into tactical battles with any left over low level monsters.

Low level monsters could automatically flee and be removed from the strategical map like in Kings Bounty: Armored Princess.

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May 11, 2013 6:06:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,


If tactical battles is what you want to focus on, our games aren't really about that.  The point of tactical battles is for players to see the results of their strategic choices. 

There are lots of good games out there that revolve around tactical battles. This game isn't one of them.

My only hope are the modders now than. Pls someone put some challange in to the game!

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May 11, 2013 7:16:33 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Before asking for mods, did you actually try to play on any setting higher than hard for both world and AI? The challenge is there, and is in all aspects of gameplay. 

Tactical fights are not meant to be a game inside the game and last for an hour "So yeah I played today LH for 4 hours, managed to settle a city, build 3 buildings and clear 3 lairs near my city, tomorrow I shall explore a bit further to the west."

On higher diff levels you can't autocombat or steamroll through monsters even at end of game when you have all upgrades, you can still die easily (and not because of stupid lucky crits or some BS). You don't click and win, you need think, pay attention to initiative bar, hp and position of your units and enemy ones, what abilities you have on CD on troops, and when will they be available again. Is not a smack smack arcade by far, you hit 1st he hits 2nd who hits hardest wins.

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