Hero Exp Split- Bad Design or Really Bad Design?

By on May 1, 2013 4:02:54 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Burress

Join Date 06/2006
+15

I cannot understand the reason for this design decision. It seems to add needless complexity and discomfort for the player without being fun or making any sense.

First, the making sense part. Champions are people who become developmentally handicapped in the presence of other champions. They are smart as a whip sitting back and letting 6 squads dismantle the opposition, taking notes and learning the ways of uber-pwnage. But with two champions, what happens, is there only one pen and paper for the entire squad? Do they have to take turns writing and split up each other's notes afterwards?

I know this rule was instituted when it was discovered that champions were so powerful that you could beat the game with them without ever building units. This strategy offended those in power long ago, and since then champions were neutered with exp split, general exp decline, and spiced up with that just three to six crummy levels til I get the cool ability feeling. At the same time, units got an extreme buff, and now you can beat the game easily without ever using a champion (or having a champion be useful), but there is no outcry. What gives there?

Now there is the effect on the player. Players have to build an army for each champion, or resign themselves to just having fancy backstories to their unrest reduction in some city. The player must manage these multiple armies, which will never have enough map to level them all, all the while wondering, is this how Peter Venkman felt when Egon told him to never cross the streams? I mean you CAN use them together to win that hard battle (maybe against a giant marshmallow man), with all that juicy exp... which gets split up to the point its just one more stride on the long mile to level 10 or 12, or whatever level a champion actually will feel heroic at. Fellow champions are each other's kryptonite, which makes it a difficult strategic decision whether to use them together, but it's like a choice between crummy or crummier to the player.

This forces a player who knows the split exists to play with far more micromanagement and complexity in the hope, in my experience in vain anyway, that your heroes will eventually be, you know, heroic. I mean make it to the level ups that are fun (the ones that aren't +1-3 to a stat that doesn't make much difference). Players who don't know it exists will just wonder "why are the trees so long"?

I know this is a negative post, but hey, I strongly feel this is a bad decision through and through. The game will be better and more friendly and logical to every newbie, at the least. But I think it may even make people who are strategy diehards have fun teaming up heroes without having to worry about fighting 2-5 times as many battles to get where almost no champion but the sovereign gets in a normal game now. It makes sense and it is a fun, simple strategy to band champions together, and it is bad design to discourage logical, simple, fun gameplay. It is not unthinkable there was another way to encourage more complex gameplay without killing the fun rpg parts of the game or forcing players to juggle making and using many armies.

Btw, I think the game is great and should get deep and wide acclaim, but I think decisions like this endanger it to a possible dilution with "meh" because it doesn't pander to the most visceral and powerful source of fun in games with rpg aspects, the ego identification with heroes and the player's character. I have posted about this before, but basically every game that has ruled this genre has been at best a decent strategy game suped up with a fat layer of ego satisfaction. I think this is a great strategy game that has been drowning out its own ego attraction in the name of balance. 

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NaytchSG
May 4, 2013 2:52:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

As others have said the xp splitting is not the real problem, and it is very complex so you could solve it in various ways. Personally I think the problem lies with monster lairs being one shots. This means it just makes sense to use a single hero to consume all the lairs and this leaves nothing for other champions. Once those lairs are gone what are you supposed to do?  Also most people aren't aware you get more experience for using lower strength armies. i.e weak versus Medium.

 

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May 4, 2013 2:53:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting kwm1800,
 

Well, I believe "very easily" and "modding" cannot be in same sentence regarding this game. 

I disagree. My biggest difficulty in modding this game is drawing the darn icons.

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May 4, 2013 3:34:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I am not an expert in modding this game, but I have spent a decent amount of time modding it and, if my opinion is worth something, I would not call it "easily modable". Yes, it's not impossible to mod, but not easy either. 

Now that I am used I can do many things pretty easily, but I remember how difficult it was to understand some concepts, like resources being distributed in three different files. Also, there are many things that just can't be modded no matter how hard you try. Do you want to affect global resources from cities? No way. Do you want to know how many soldiers in your army? No way. Do you want to calculate the effect of units/champions abilities? we are sorry. And most recently, do you want to change the champions "path of"? good luck trying it.

Then there are the hidden traps and unexpected side effects that come when you mod something and it triggers an unsuspected side effect, like allowing a champion to found a city and then discovering that the champion is not consumed in the process, which brings me to the incoherent behaviour, elements that behave different depending on the context, such as Additive resources working for champions but not for trained units.

So, in my experience and my humble opinion, the game is not as modable as promised. Yes, it's more modabble than other games that simply are not modabble, but a lot less than promised.

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May 4, 2013 3:39:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting mqpiffle,


... The game is balanced in the eyes of the developers.  ...

I highly doubt the developers themselves would claim that. From what I have gathered from dev journals ect., Stardock does not have a large dedicated play-testing department. Without one, it is impossible to understand how the game plays with all the different combinations of settings and player preferences without getting feedback from a place like this one. Unfortunately, this approach comes with the drawback (among others) of trying to sift through noise (abundant and sometimes very shrill) for the signal they are looking for.

It could very easily be the case they could miss something important with something they thought they had put abundant effort in to, such as heroes and sovereign design/play. They have a wonderful customization system, face/clothing/body customizer, backstory maker, background choice, many interesting special abilities to choose from, ect. It may be surprising after all this work to hear that the whole thing is underwhelming from certain players (they will have to decide how significant this population is), not because the systems mentioned above are not excellent, but because of something that is primarily in data and how different populations of players enjoy the game. 

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May 4, 2013 4:19:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting parrottmath,



I disagree. My biggest difficulty in modding this game is drawing the darn icons.

 

Really? OliverFA put his some input, but let me add more: there are too many inconsistency and too many limitations to do anything on this game.

Like... dynamic cost for casting something fronthead? not possible. Even setting things like minimum distance between cities for each map requires one of core files in game folder has to be overwritten, not possible using mod folder. No way to fix AI issues, AIs not playing same game as player does (like, AI actually does not really play quest in same way as player does.)

 

I know this has gone to off-topic so I will make this short: don't expect anyone to make any 'proper' mod to test out all of the ideas present because the game simply does not support modding game mechanics in reasonable way.

 

 

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May 4, 2013 4:47:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Altering the xp gains in ElementalDefs is indeed very easy. Altering the trait trees would not be so easy, but can be done with about 6-10 hrs worth of work if you know what you're going for and develop a good plan.

The point I'm trying to make is that the game is balanced in terms of certain design decisions the developers have made over the past few years.  Altering something so crucial as champion xp splitting at this point would unbalance the entire leveling process and would require many hours of paid labor to rebalance.  And in fact it's (imo) kind of silly, because there are ways around the issue at hand already in the game that you are not accounting for in your rants, such as properly using traits, commanders, spells, or henchmen (bards) to name just a few.  My hunch is that many of you are also calling for the removal of the Potential traits, when in fact these are exactly the traits you'd want to choose if you want to group champions.

I feel like many of you are frustrated because you don't want to believe that this is a strategy game at its core, which requires making tough decisions based on the circumstances you're dealt at the beginning of the match and as the game progresses, and therefore you're not willing to play the game as its meant to be played.  That's fine, but I'm afraid you're going to have to either make mods or wait until someone mods the game to your liking because your vision and the developer's vision on this matter are not the same.

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May 4, 2013 4:53:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Burress,
I highly doubt the developers themselves would claim that. From what I have gathered from dev journals ect., Stardock does not have a large dedicated play-testing department.

Trust me, Stardock is getting input (that we are not necessarily privy to) from very high level strategy gamers out there who are overall providing much better game play and balance feedback than what they can get from these forums.  Just look at the strategy game talent they've brought in over the past three years, then tell me their friends and associates who are playing these builds don't know what they're talking about.

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May 4, 2013 5:22:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

@ mqpiffle

I am having a hard time imagining this, but I am really curious. Do you know something specifically? Because if being a game developer required someone to ask their friends for 20-50 hours or so of labor at regular intervals, I would think it would be the lonliest job in the world. But maybe I don't have the right picture.

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May 4, 2013 5:25:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting mqpiffle,

I feel like many of you are frustrated because you don't want to believe that this is a strategy game at its core, which requires making tough decisions based on the circumstances you're dealt at the beginning of the match and as the game progresses, and therefore you're not willing to play the game as its meant to be played.  That's fine, but I'm afraid you're going to have to either make mods or wait until someone mods the game to your liking because your vision and the developer's vision on this matter are not the same.

We agree that many times this is a matter of personal preferences, what you like and dislike. But in my opinion (and it is just my opinion) is not just about being "strategic" or "being balanced". There is an important factor which is being fun. For me (and I repeat, that's my opinion ) resorting to extreme abstractions kills the fun. I can accept that game wise it probably makes sense to split XP between champions and not between trained units, but for me that's weird and makes very little sense. Either you split the XP between everybody or don't split them, but applying different implementations depending on the type of unit feels like a game mechanic and not like a world simulation.

That's why despite accepting that it is a good solution from the game mechanics point if view I believe that it is a very bad solution from the fun point of view because it implements a strange and unnatural behaviour. And yes, that's just my opinion.

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May 4, 2013 6:05:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The game is not meant to be played to fill all skills on both trees of your hero(es). Is not D1-D2-D3 in that regard where you replay content to get a bit more xp and get another skill etc. The purpose of the game is not to fill your skill slots left and right, is to explore, develop, and achieve victory (or fail) with several options on how to achieve that.

You can clearly see this from the design of game. It makes sense for example as a spellcaster to master one or two of the schools you're proficient with, then add some flavor (more damage, less spell resist, shorter casting time w/e) from the spellcaster tree. Oh you want all 5 spell trees and also fill all spellcasting stuff. How on earth? Maps are limited, the amount of XP on them is limited, number of opponents is fixed, sure you can spawn quests, but after a certain level you'll only get a good bump on XP from epic quests. There is no respawn on lairs and wandering monsters and apart ingame events (like skeletons invasion) when you clear an area it stays clear (except for enemy players). It wouldn't make any sense for me to clear a lair to settle a town and 20 seasons later a higher level lair to pop next to my city. Say what?

 

If you played heroes series (HOMM) it was no different, once you cleared monsters or killed AI's main army, it was all gone. Yes week of the X creature adding several mobs on map that would barely make your xp bar flinch. The games are not neverending quests, it's not a living world simulation or persisting world like MMO's. It's a set scenario, is a strategy game

Baldur's Gate (1&2) both had xp split among heroes. In order to even hope to get a hero at max level you would have to solo the game refusing any NPC to join your party to not share xp. I don't think anyone complained that you can complete the game (as intended to be played) with several mid level heroes or with a single one near or reaching the XP cap. And that was a pure RPG adventure with no strategic elements.

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May 4, 2013 6:29:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting OliverFA_306,
There is an important factor which is being fun.

And having a bunch of OP heroes running around with no concern for trained troops would be fun?  I personally think not.

We have been through all of this in the FE beta.  There are really good reasons these things are the way they are.  If you don't want to accept it that's fine (it is your opinion after all) but what's being asked of this thread is to undo all of the testing that went on back then which told SD that the non splitting of xp was broken.  And I'm not trying to come off as 'been there done that' (I could have said that earlier if I wanted to play that card) but it has been hashed out in detail previously.

The reason hero xp is split is because they are so much more powerful than your average trained unit.

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May 4, 2013 6:46:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting kwm1800,

Quoting parrottmath, reply 102


I disagree. My biggest difficulty in modding this game is drawing the darn icons.

 

Really? OliverFA put his some input, but let me add more: there are too many inconsistency and too many limitations to do anything on this game.

Like... dynamic cost for casting something fronthead? not possible. Even setting things like minimum distance between cities for each map requires one of core files in game folder has to be overwritten, not possible using mod folder. No way to fix AI issues, AIs not playing same game as player does (like, AI actually does not really play quest in same way as player does.)

 

I know this has gone to off-topic so I will make this short: don't expect anyone to make any 'proper' mod to test out all of the ideas present because the game simply does not support modding game mechanics in reasonable way.

 

I have been modding this game for awhile. As I say there are some limitations in what can be easily done, most of what people want can be done. For dynamic cost of casting something, this can be done. The other part of editing core files, you can set this up by creating a senario in game. This will allow you to edit any of the core files and you set up a war between nations. Within game to set up random sovereigns and such may be a little difficult, but then you don't need the ingame editor and function players to set this up. Like other games and how you mod them you produce a front end that runs the game afterward.

The AI problems that you talk about can be fixed in other ways. For example, set up poor tatical decisions made by the AI to be bonuses. If you've played the game enough you know what the AI will do, it's not all that random, and the moddability of the game is there. I've made several mods and discovered there are loopholes in most of the system. Most of what OliverFA is wanting to try out may not be done directly, but there are systems in place that will produce basically the same effect.

It is not that hard to develop your own programs that will make a random map (better or the same as what the game has). When I say this is not difficult to do I really mean it is NOT difficult to do the modding. I've already on 2 seperate occassions posted a mod that removes the champion XP split from everyone. It is simply adding a line to every champion

<DividesBattleExp>0</DividesBattleExp>

It is a simple mod to create.

If you want to run a more linear scale when it comes to the XP bonuses create a spell like this

<Spells>
     <SpellDef InternalName="XPReductionReduced">
        <DisplayName>XPReduction</DisplayName>
        <Description>At the beginning of battle a bonus is applied from each hero to every unit in the stack.</Description>
        <Image>S_BlessingOfRestoration_Painting.png</Image>
        <IconFG>S_BlessingOfRestoration_Icon.png</IconFG>
        <CanStack>1</CanStack>
        <SpellBookSortCategory>Unit</SpellBookSortCategory>
         <SpellBookSortSubCategory>UnitEnchantment</SpellBookSortSubCategory>
        <SpellType>Tactical</SpellType>
        <SpellClass>Defensive</SpellClass>
        <SpellSubClass>Buff</SpellSubClass>
        <SpellTargetType>AllFriendlyUnits</SpellTargetType>
        <HideInHiergamenon>1</HideInHiergamenon>
        <IgnoreCastAnim>1</IgnoreCastAnim>
        <IsCastable>0</IsCastable>
        <GameModifier>
            <ModType>Unit</ModType>
            <Attribute>AdjustUnitStat</Attribute>
            <StrVal>UnitStat_ExpBonus</StrVal>
            <Duration>-1</Duration>
            <Value>75</Value>
         </GameModifier>
         <AIData AIPersonality="AI_General">
            <AIPriority>5</AIPriority>
        </AIData>
     </SpellDef>
</Spells>

Then attach this to every champion by giving an appropriate abiliy. This will then have every champion cast this at the beginning of every battle and since it can stack you will find that with 2 champions you get a 150% bonus, but if you do the math 100% exp divided by 2 gives 50% of the XP, then 150% of that XP 125% of the original XP. Mind you you get 175% of the XP in a battle with 1 champion involved. Thus, the reduction goes down by less than half. For 3 champions you then would get 33% of the XP but a 225% bonus, That means you get somewhere along the lines of 75% or little less than half when with 3 champions.

This will still reduce the XP, but you can have around 3 champions and still get decent XP for everybody in your army. This can be done from the mod folder.

For dynamic spell casting in tatical battles add the game modifier

<GameModifier>
     <ModType>Resource</ModType>
     <Attribute>Mana</Attribute>
     <ApplyToCaster>1</ApplyToCaster>
     <Calculate InternalName="Calc" ValueOwner="TargetUnit">
         <Expression><![CDATA[[Unit_GetLevel] * -10]]></Expression>
     </Calculate>
     <Calculate InternalName="Value">
         <Expression><![CDATA[[Calc]]]></Expression>
     </Calculate>
</GameModifier>

This will cost the casting unit 10 mana per level of the target. I'd call that dynamic and an upfront cost. Currently the strategic map casting calculations are broken which they are slowly fixing.

Editing the AI would require scripts to determine the functionality. Notice throughout that we have AI_General tag everwhere... There is an xml that can edit ALL of the AI personality and what choices they make. What priorities they will use and what they will try next. You can edit all of these files, I haven't editted them and I don't know of any of the modders who have touched these files. You can probably set up the numbers in such a way that you have effectively SCRIPTED an AI to do exactly what you want them to do, but that would take hours.

I could address all of these issues that people have listed in these pages, but I just don't have the time or more importantly the money to devote that much time to working with all the XML of these files and create a fantastic mod. There are some quirks and things that you want to have happen that just won't because the game engine is limited... I'm sure you can even get around the combat ends movement (I've got an idea that probably work).

I don't think XP split is the problem, I am developing currently a mod that will provide INFINITE monsters (or even near INFINITE). Provide a really slow but high level game. I'd even include a trait in the trees that will allow you to get around I cannot choose a trait bug on the level up screen.

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May 4, 2013 6:52:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting mqpiffle,


Quoting OliverFA_306, reply 109There is an important factor which is being fun.

And having a bunch of OP heroes running around with no concern for trained troops would be fun?  I personally think not.

We have been through all of this in the FE beta.  There are really good reasons these things are the way they are.  If you don't want to accept it that's fine (it is your opinion after all) but what's being asked of this thread is to undo all of the testing that went on back then which told SD that the non splitting of xp was broken.  And I'm not trying to come off as 'been there done that' (I could have said that earlier if I wanted to play that card) but it has been hashed out in detail previously.

The reason hero xp is split is because they are so much more powerful than your average trained unit.

I am not denying that from the number-crunching point if view it makes sense to apply a rule only to heroes and not to regular troops. What am I saying is that to me it seems illogical.  I am not even denying the problem. What I am questioning is the solution because it creates a world that makes no sense. Yes, I know that someone is going to reply "but this is a fantasy world, logic des not apply" and I will answer that there is a difference between fantasy and illogical or nonsense.

i repeat that for some people is perfectly ok that the world "simulation" plays in completely odd ways and that it has very little to be with real world, but I am the kind of people that like games to make sense even if they are game. I like games to incorporate realistic elements (and yes realistic" is compatible with "fantasy") Such as upkeep, resource storage, supply chains, morale, etc  and yes, that's a matter of taste. That's why some people praise games which are "balanced" and "strategic" while some other people criticise the same games for being "illogical" or "too abstract". Just a matter for perspective. 

About overpowered heroes, what's overpowered? For some people, a late-game hero killing 100 troops single handedly is overpowered while for others is the well deserve reward of a full game levelling up that hero and brings a sense of accomplishment and progression. 

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May 4, 2013 7:06:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting parrottmath,

 Most of what OliverFA is wanting to try out may not be done directly, but there are systems in place that will produce basically the same effect.

With all due respect, there is a difference between "can be done" and "can be EASILY done". That's why I felt the need to make that little comment.

Other than that, I'd be extremely happy to be proven wrong when I say that something can't be done, because I have learned that this something can't be done because I tried to do for my mod, so if someone proves me wrong what it means is that it's good news for my mod. That's too much thread hijacking, so I will post some questions in another threads but just to mention two impossibilities that I've found and I find basic: I have not found a way to count the number of cities (I have a decent approximation but not the actual number) and I can't make a Pioneer cost food. And I really hope that's fruit of my incompetence and not of the engine limitations. 

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May 4, 2013 7:15:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If that code works, they may finally fixed <ApplyToCaster>1 ruining the whole code (or not?) But I can easily guess <SpellTargetCreatureType> has not been fixed. I can't bother trying this again but regarding Stardock's stance of modding a.k.a "nop" it is still burst after 6 months of the release of the FE. See this thread.

http://forums.elementalgame.com/436469/page/1/#3274785

 

I mean, I know the codes and stuffs (since I also did modding for some time) but there are too many minefields that breaks the code, even more,they are fairly inconsistent. Like back to <ApplyToCaster>, it may work with other codes, but as soon as it meets with <SpellTargetCreatureType> it simply stops working.

 

With infamous instant city raze issue that forced Brad to just remove turn restriction for raze, the game engine has so many issues (and I have to still have to struggle selecting multiple units with shift key because of the engine glitch) I am so baffled that Stardock refuses to improve the modding and open up the engine so us modders can fix the engine and the whole game, for free.

 

Like many others, I am not going to waste my time again on modding the game with this broken engine, unless someone capable finally reverse-engineers the engine like Minecraft so we can see how ugly it is and attempt to fix the bugs.

 

Sorry for keeping going for off-topic folks!

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May 4, 2013 8:40:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I have read through all this debate, and one thought keeps coming to mind.

In the time it takes everyone else to grab Potential 1/2/3, I can have Lethal 1/2/3, Vital Strike 1/2/3, etc.  I will be three traits down the path to what I want while everyone else is still trying to get started, after grabbing things that offer NO BENEFIT for either the Tactical or Strategic gameplay.

Yes, with Potential they can catch up faster, but I already have the head start I need to get the big powers before you, and then use them against you.

Potential gives my Army, Champion, Kingdom/Empire no physical benefit, and is pretty much a wasted Level when I could be getting more Attack, more Spell Mastery, more Health, more Spell Resistance, more Spells, etc.

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May 4, 2013 8:58:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting kwm1800,
If that code works, they may finally fixed 1 ruining the whole code (or not?) But I can easily guess has not been fixed. I can't bother trying this again but regarding Stardock's stance of modding a.k.a "nop" it is still burst after 6 months of the release of the FE. See this thread.
http://forums.elementalgame.com/436469/page/1/#3274785

I mean, I know the codes and stuffs (since I also did modding for some time) but there are too many minefields that breaks the code, even more,they are fairly inconsistent. Like back to , it may work with other codes, but as soon as it meets with it simply stops working.

I've posted a fix to that problem in that forum post.

I do believe that the XP problem lies with the fact that the creature lairs on the map are few (even on dense), but this can be changed in a few different ways. Up the amounts of lairs in the controls, or provide another means of spawning lairs in the game as they get cleared away. A hidden resource that everyone gets when cleaning lairs and then random events that spawn new lairs... Also, building providing XP to the stationed champion I think is a very moddable thing to do. We already have building provide bonuses when they are built, why not add that tag to every building that way if a building is built and the champion is stationed in that town they get XP (in fact you can give every unit that station in that town XP).

What I would like to see the devs do is reduce the effects of the XP divide. Rather than be 1/2 1/3 1/4, something more gradual.

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May 5, 2013 1:00:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting parrottmath,


What I would like to see the devs do is reduce the effects of the XP divide. Rather than be 1/2 1/3 1/4, something more gradual.

That definately sums up how I feel about this matter, as well.

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May 5, 2013 3:21:35 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

No one is asking for heroes to be able to unlock every ability in their tree. No one is asking for them to make heroes horribly unbalanced. 

What lots of people are saying in various ways is that the current heroes feel underwhelming, dull, not that fun, and not particularly legendary. Whatever fix it takes to turn that around, it needs looking at in my opinion.

This thread has received 2400 views in the last week, far more than any other recent threads, so I'd hazard to guess there's quite a few players who feel this way.

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May 5, 2013 3:24:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If Stardock would announce plans to do another expansion after this with large amounts of content additions, I could care less what they do before release with this one. I just don't want this expansion to be it. This was a good expansion, but it seemed like it was mostly balance. The love they put in to balancing is awesome, but it would be sweet to get one more expansion or some dlc with new quests (so we don't get the same ones each game), deeper diplomacy, some new game modes or scenarios, more monsters, more spells and abilities, upgrades to graphics, UI, and special effects. Basically a meaty content expansion with as much as is possible.

There is another thread with a list of fixes that could be done before release, and there are plenty of other threads about balances and bugs. If the goal was to make the biggest impression before release, I think you could fix every bug and equal out every strategy and not make much of any difference on release impressions. Of the things that can easily and quickly be changed, people will notice how champions and leveling plays. If they play like well-balanced tools for winning the game, then people with rpg-expectations for a fantasy TBS game can easily be disappointed. Even if they went too far and they made them significantly overpowered, instead of being viewed as a bug, it will most likely thrill these same people. It's a tough call, because I would find it hard to argue from a pure strategy game perspective that it isn't the most interesting the way it is. I just don't know the numbers and whom the devs most want to please.

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May 5, 2013 3:36:13 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

(off-topic)

[quote=parrotmath]My biggest difficulty in modding this game is drawing the darn icons.[/quote]

I can help you in drawing icons (or other similar tasks, involving drawing) if you need help, offcourse.

(/off-topic)

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May 5, 2013 3:43:43 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

What about a dynamic xp slider such that when you have more than one person in a group the base xp is increased by 1.X amount such that when there are two people the base is increased by 20% so the final xp split is 60% instead of 50%.  For three people it would 1.3 times and a base of 43% instead of 33% and so on and so forth.  This would cushion the xp split but not make it overpowered to stack of doom things.

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May 5, 2013 11:18:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ok here's an idea.

 

Make heroes on each levelup, up to level 10 gain a free skill of their choice (still bound by the skill trees, so you can only fill them up in the order they are linked) in this tab, and one skill which they get to pick in their specialization path.

 

So for example my level 2 sovereign who gets to pick a specialization, say Spellcaster, will also have a talent to spend into general tab, picking initiative for example. At level 3 I get another free pick in General Tab, say more trinket slots, and I also get a talent for my Spellcaster specialization, picking summons.

 

This way they don't need to change Hero XP at all from how it is, but you know you're getting rewarded better for each level up, and since the xp bonuses are in general tab, will alleviate the problem with using more than 1 hero per army (as they will get more xp being in a group or solo).

 

So we have general tab that is available and sort of auto-fills for every hero (none of the perks here are overpowered or a must for any build, but they are nice to have), and you still get to fill any secondary specializations you want.

 

Now if you have 2 or 3 magic specializations on the general tab, you won't be able to fill them all from the free points obviously, but still it gives you some spells (if you chose so) during early levels for free, while you still get to work on your specialization.

This will also make playing other specializations feel more smooth and more in theme with Elemental and Magic, as you won't have to delay getting that Warrior or Assassin skill you want at expense of getting 3 more spells in your book.

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May 5, 2013 12:28:09 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting parrottmath,

What I would like to see the devs do is reduce the effects of the XP divide. Rather than be 1/2 1/3 1/4, something more gradual.

Fibonacci comes to mind, just divide XP through F(n):

1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34

1 hero   -  XP /1

2 heroes - XP /1

So the game would encourage you to use two heroes in your stacks who would "earn twice the XP" then. A new hero trait that doubles XP gain for any hero who fights alone in an army would fit in very well. Encouraging the use of two heroes also make sense as you could roleplay one for support (Healer, Commander) and one for offensive demands. Could spice heroes up a bit.

3 heroes - XP/2

4 heroes - XP/3

5 heroes - XP/5

...

 

That way, availiable XP would in fact be multiplied for hero progression with a sweet spot at two heroes, from three heroes per stack upwards you would in fact "waste" XP and slow hero development down and with more than five heroes (which is completely silly anyway) your heroes would end up  earning less XP than regular troops in the same stack.

 

Of course that would only make sense if we agree in two problems.

1) there is not enough XP avbailiable for hero progression at the moment  (heroes level too slow, trees are too long)

2) there is no "stack of doom" problem in LH regarding stacks of multiple heroes.

 

I for one think heroes should level faster and reach higher levels, so being able to earn twice the XP with two heroes at once seems worth a try for me. I also think that an additional company of regular troops adds a lot more punsh to any stack than another hero, so I don't see the "hero stack of doom" problem in LH.

 

Please excuse my bad french...

 

 

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May 5, 2013 1:43:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

i believe the biggest misconception is that heroes need a high level to be powerful. i've been playing LH a lot recently, and in my experience, that's just not true. heroes can be real game changers at low/mid levels (~level 5-7 or something) and some paths become just ungodly powerful at level 10-15. those levels are reachable with pretty much every champion you get (in my experience, anyway). getting to those levels too early just breaks the game IMO.

of course there are also exceptions. some of the specs aren't really worth picking in my experience, but that may just be a "learn to play" issue. for example, i have very little experience with assassins. i generally don't pick them because i like the other 4 paths better, so i have no clue if an archer assassin is useful i also don't know what the purpose of the spell resistance line for defenders is, since i love my trusted "tank" defenders and never really used the spell resistance spec.

most of the speccs/paths i've played so far tend to do more than fine at the levels you can reach in the game right now, so i've come to the conclusion that making hero XP more readily available isn't really necessary. my heroes are already legendary

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