[MAJOR ISSUE] Dragon experience

By on April 24, 2013 8:37:13 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

davrovana

Join Date 05/2009
+60

Like a German that didn't say anything when the Nazis came for his neighbors, I heard the talk about dragons giving awful xp. I didn't pay full attention, I was thinking more of the general change in xp rewards and the resulting "useless heroes" effect it had on champions. How bad could it be if dragons have a little less xp than in FE?

Then, it happened to me:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mi8wpk945qx28so/Dragon_low_exp.jpg

I really like this game. Despite issues in the beta of LH, I appreciate where Derek/Brad et al. is coming from with the new design choices. I think the number of heroes compared to xp supply is not quite balanced, but it is getting there. 

However, giving me 14 experience for killing a dragon it basically a big middle finger for playing. I assume this is an unintended result of some new experience calculation. However, let me make my opinion clear: THIS MUST BE FIXED. 

A slag gave me 20xp in the same game. I killed a Lord of The Flame stack and got 140. I killed Mr. Fire lord with no casualties - the dragon roasted experienced troops I had become mildly attached to. How is 14 exp sensical?

FOURTEEN EXPERIENCE POINTS.

If you make a role-playing game, in which defeating monsters gives experience which in turn levels up heroes, you are playing inside genre expectations. CENTRAL to this genre expectation (which FE quite effectively was loyal to) is that DRAGONS are hard to beat, and will give large experience rewards. Given how much harder it is to level in Lh compared to FE, I should at least make HUGE PROGRESS towards my next level, if not gain one, after killing a dragon.

Please make dragons give a sizable xp reward. A milestone of every FE game was getting touch enough to beat a dragon. For some reason, that has been taken away.

Help LH become the game it's shaping up to be - fix this issue.  

Locked Post 26 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 9:11:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

That first sentence must be one of the weirdest I've read on the entire forum. Apart from the fact that the analogy does not even fit the point you are trying to make, it is also quite unnecessary.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 9:13:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hopefully it's just an easy XML fix. Very valid point.

Just wondering, but did you have any other heroes in your army? The penalty for more than one is rather severe.

I did see the next LH update will increase XP gain slightly, but that would probably only yield 20 XP instead of 14, which is still too low.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 10:52:12 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

 

Im not seeing what you are.  This may be due to the change to the xp calculation, which is that 0.07 of the monsters combat power counts to xp instead of 0.05 (FE was 0.075, so its almost exactly the same as FE).

But if that was the case I would expect the Lord of the Flame's xp to increase significantly too.  Instead I see the following:

http://screencast.com/t/uVzzwf7VzRm

http://screencast.com/t/Rr2gdfpR5qG

So Im not sure why you would get 140 xp from a Lord of the Flame and 14 for a Clambercoil dragon.  Unless you had a ton of xp bonuses for the Lord of the Flame battle (something around +100%) and a ton of champions in the dragon battle (4-5).

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 11:13:00 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Derek, would you be so kind to share with us the different modifiers that affect the XP you get by killing an enemy? Thanks in advance

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 11:49:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Its a pretty complex formula.  Mostly because it relies on other things.  The base per monster is the monsters battle rank (which is a big calculation in and of itself) times the GetCombatRatingToExpMultiplier in elemental.defs (the value that 0.85 switches from 0.05 to 0.07).  At a minimum units give 1 xp per level.

Battle rank is also modified by any CombatRating modifier on attributes (which is how we tell the threat level and exp systems that particular traits make monsters more or less dangerous).

Once we have the xp value for a particular monster we modify by the amount of champions in the winning army.  We also modify by world size (you get less xp on larger maps to balance for the more monsters and battles).  Finally we have the ability to set a minimum xp in elementaldefs (which is set to 1) and a maximum xp (which isn't being applied since it is -1).

Im sure there are a few other things, but in general thats how it works.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 11:55:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Thanks so much!

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 12:06:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hi Derek, is there any technical reason why the experience gain can't be displayed on the battle preview page?  So you could see before the battle started what the net gain would be?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 12:16:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting phazonfreak,

That first sentence must be one of the weirdest I've read on the entire forum. Apart from the fact that the analogy does not even fit the point you are trying to make, it is also quite unnecessary.

 

It's some kind of crazy way to get past Godwin's Law by making it the first thing we talk about...truly bizarre.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 12:21:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I saw the dragon in Derek's screenshot was level 12 and the one in the original poster's screenshot was level 7. I don't think level actually matters much when it comes to how hard it is to kill a dragon, but is it possible it is in this complex formula for exp?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 12:40:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Level definitely matters.  It modifies the dragons spell mastery, accuracy, attack, hp, combat speed, crit chance, breath weapon damage and defense.  But I dont think it would be enough to drop it that much.

I think the dragon the player found is a very weak dragon from the Ghost Helm quest.  I made that quest forever ago and it is still listed as a level 7 dragon (which used to be a high level long ago).  I'll boost it to the level Clambercoil dragons are supposed to be (12) and that should help both with XP and making sure its appropriatly dragonesque difficulty.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 2:03:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Thanks for the reply, Derek. You are correct that it was the clambercoil from the ghost helm quest.

I may have gotten my panties in a wad too early, I fought other dragons in the same game and got more appropriate experience amounts, seen here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ohshcbufrj8llp/sov_solo_dragon.jpg

95 xp for killing a dragon solo. I'll take that.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ojo6uivfpzgmmg4/fell_dragon_exp.jpg

45 xp for my sovereign, with another champion present. Again, no complaints.

 

Why I got so little xp still doesn't make sense to me either, since the battle mentioned in the OP was only my sovereign and trained troops - no additional champion present. My sovereign had no xp-boosting traits. At the time of fighting the Lord of the flame, my sovereign may have had the tutelege enchantment. He was wearing the band of insight in all these examples (including LotF battle and when he got 14 xp). 

So my point remains, getting such relatively low xp from a dragon hurts the game experience overall. But now it seems to be an unexplainable one-off, so calling it a MAJOR ISSUE may have been hasty. 

I think other players would appreciate anything you can do to prevent 14xp dragon battles. But as for the REST of the LH beta, it is overall really great. Thanks for your work so far.  

(I have my saves from the end-game if you want to see them and they would be relevant, I didn't think to keep the saves after those battles)

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 2:29:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I do think it was an error that that dragon was only 7th level.  That will be straightened up in the next patch so it looks like this will be fixed (or at least better).  

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 2:37:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I saw this reflected in the .85 changelog. Thanks. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 4:06:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Another major issue bites the dust!

Hoping the new patch arrives today (or tomorrow).

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 7:43:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Would it be possible to not have level effect XP gains? What I mean is, have the balancing factor only be how much XP you need to get to next level. As a player, it is satisfying to see larger numbers for the XP gained from creatures. The fact that the number of XP earned scales at all can be dissapointing.

For example, at level one, when I kill some darklings, I may get 20 or 30xp. And yet at level 10, if I killed those same darklings, I would only get 5xp. By keeping the number of XP static, at 20 or 30xp, I feel like I am earning something and that my character is more powerful, even if the time and kills to reach level 11 stay the same.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 24, 2013 9:58:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Naidrev,

Would it be possible to not have level effect XP gains?

I agree with the sentiment behind this, but without the scaling, I could see this encouraging farming of lower level units just to level.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 25, 2013 12:53:25 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Lord Reliant,
I could see this encouraging farming of lower level units just to level.

While this may be a large change to game play, I don't see anything wrong with doing that. In fact, I think you SHOULD be able to raise low level units faster by having them team up with higher level units. This lowers the skill gap of units faster mid and late game, while still taking time and risking the death of the weaker units. In fact, I'd say this way is more appealing as it makes the risk worth it.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 25, 2013 3:51:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Lord Reliant,
I could see this encouraging farming of lower level units just to level.

Which is exactly what we are already doing since LH beta started, since it looks very slow to level up multiple heroes, even after the 0.7 change.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 25, 2013 3:52:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting davrovana,
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ojo6uivfpzgmmg4/fell_dragon_exp.jpg

45 xp for my sovereign, with another champion present. Again, no complaints.

 

I always wondered why in quite a big window which takes only a part of the screen there is no place for the whole army and you need to scroll every time to see if you lost anybody after clicking auto-combat?

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 25, 2013 4:44:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Naidrev,

Quoting Lord Reliant, reply 16I could see this encouraging farming of lower level units just to level.

While this may be a large change to game play, I don't see anything wrong with doing that. In fact, I think you SHOULD be able to raise low level units faster by having them team up with higher level units. This lowers the skill gap of units faster mid and late game, while still taking time and risking the death of the weaker units. In fact, I'd say this way is more appealing as it makes the risk worth it.

Or, if devs want to prevent low level units from gaining levels by just watch while high level units do all the work, adjust the XP for those low level units but allow the highest level unit to get all the XP, making the formula:

XP= Monster XP * (Unit level / Level of the highest unit in the army)

 I'll explain with an example:

Let's imagine that a Level 10 Unit and a Level 1 unit kill a monster valued 100XP.

- Level 10 unit would get 100XP (100*(10/10))

- Level 1 unit would get 10XP (100*(1/10))

Another example. A level 5 unit and a level 2 unit.

- Level 5 unit would get 100XP (100*(5/5))

- Level 2 unit would get 40XP (100*(2/5))

I think this is easiest to understand (and to balance) and allows high level units to get full XP while low level units don't get XP for just watching.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 25, 2013 8:08:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Whether it's the old system or the new one, I'm hoping that farming monsters for XP isn't an intentional design. What I mean is that SD intentionally wants players to leave monster huts around just to keep them around for leveling purposes. It seems like once you clear out monsters but don't capture their lair, they shouldn't regenerate more. I'm also unsure why monsters keep growing past 1 size of group. I'm sure it's more threatening, but it also encourages farming and makes things confusing when trying to capture a lair (especially when there are 2 or 3 stacks of monsters on a lair).

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 25, 2013 11:12:13 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Lord Reliant,

Whether it's the old system or the new one, I'm hoping that farming monsters for XP isn't an intentional design. What I mean is that SD intentionally wants players to leave monster huts around just to keep them around for leveling purposes. It seems like once you clear out monsters but don't capture their lair, they shouldn't regenerate more. I'm also unsure why monsters keep growing past 1 size of group. I'm sure it's more threatening, but it also encourages farming and makes things confusing when trying to capture a lair (especially when there are 2 or 3 stacks of monsters on a lair).

I don't understand why you wouldn't want to have the choice of farming monsters for XP? Personally, I clear out mobs and lairs inside my borders and then leave the stuff on the outside as a bit of an AI buffer, but if you don't take the lairs, it is as much a danger as it is a potential reward.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 25, 2013 11:30:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Derek Paxton,

I do think it was an error that that dragon was only 7th level.  That will be straightened up in the next patch so it looks like this will be fixed (or at least better).  

Derek - can you please talk a little bit about multiple Heroes in a group and experience? I'm having to leave most of my heroes sitting drinking in town at the moment. In FE, there was a definite penalty, but it wasn't bad enough that I didn't take the hit.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 25, 2013 11:41:34 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The penalty is exactly the same as it was in FE.  Total xp is divided by the amount of champions in your army.  You may be feeling it a bit more because FE had higher xp in general (multiplier was 0.075 while LH was 0.05).  In 0.85 the multiplier is being raised to 0.07.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 25, 2013 5:29:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Derek Paxton,

Level definitely matters.  It modifies the dragons spell mastery, accuracy, attack, hp, combat speed, crit chance, breath weapon damage and defense.  But I dont think it would be enough to drop it that much.
 

That's what I was thinking, it seems to imply that 6 (14 * 6  = 84 to 82) of the OP's level 7 dragons would be equal to one level 12 dragon. Maybe that throws the formula off, but the OP's dragon had 22 percent more hp for 5 levels, assuming the other statistics increase approximately the same, a level 1 dragon could still probably take a level 20 bear or wolf, but I bet the bear or wolf in the formula would be worth a whole lot more. My thought was that the base type seemed to be more important than levels, but the formula doesn't seem to reflect that. Maybe it only creeps up in the oddities like this dragon, but maybe it also makes world difficulty a bit skewed too (since it only affects levels, which in small numbers don't seem to make much of a difference).  For instance, someone wants an easy game, sets the world difficulty down a couple of levels, and then monsters are slightly easier, but give fractions of the exp. It would be a bad side effect of overestimating levels.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #101114  walnut1   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0001610   Page Render Time: