The secret of the fastest fencer in the world

By on April 17, 2013 8:32:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Kamamura_CZ

Join Date 03/2006
+31

It's the backpack! When a naked guy with a knife faces a naked guy with a knife and a backpack, the backpacker now attacks faster, which is quite ridiculous. 

I understand that encumbrance was taken out, so the related items must have been given different bonuses, but this one does not make much sense.

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April 17, 2013 8:52:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

When a naked guy with a knife faces a naked guy with a knife and a backpack, the backpacker now attacks faster.

Tested this have you?

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April 17, 2013 9:36:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Video or it didn't happen

 

But ya its been mentioned a bunch of times that we are now saddled with really stupid former encumbrance items. How does a belt made of gold give splash damage? Or a horse give more damage than riding a wolf?

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April 17, 2013 10:20:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

enc replacement bonuses are stupid, entire system turn stupid now, now girl can fight with golem shield and hurge sword, but can't wear mail armor...

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April 17, 2013 11:35:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's a magic backpack. If nothing is placed in the backpack, it makes you lighter/quicker!

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April 18, 2013 12:04:25 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

well... you can kill dinosaurs, ghosts, skeletons and scorpiondudes with fireballs and lighting

 

"....Then came the Titans, immortal beings who sought control of Elemental, and the magic contained within it. They waged war amongst themselves, and in the process turned men into their vassals - and worse. Seeking control of the world’s enchantment, in the end, they all but destroyed it. At the last of the great battles they waged, the land itself was broken. Civilization perished, and the Titans vanished from the world entirely. There were survivors."

 

weird shit, son

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April 18, 2013 4:38:53 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I just heard there is a +2 backpack 

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April 18, 2013 7:06:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Still think my solution to this is the simplest

 

Backpack= +2 trinket room (for a net +1)  This is already a general skill.

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April 20, 2013 4:48:51 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Uh, actually, I'm pretty certain I've come across the "+1 initiative" enchanted backpack too. I thought it was a bit weird at the time, but glad to see somebody else has encountered it too.

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April 23, 2013 9:57:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Wow, and I thought backpacks were for carrying extra stuff without a weight penalty...  I want one

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April 23, 2013 12:12:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Alstein,

Still think my solution to this is the simplest

 

Backpack= +2 trinket room (for a net +1)  This is already a general skill.

 

so, let's do a little thought process here:

 

I have 1 slot left.

I add a backpack, which uses that slot.

Now I have 1 slot left.

 

why did I use a backpack?

 

If the backpack had an innate bonus, AND the extra slot, then it would be ok to do that.  If there is nothing innate to the backpack, other than giving another slot, then it'd be completely worthless.

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April 23, 2013 12:33:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting SBFMadDjinn,
I have 1 slot left.

I add a backpack, which uses that slot.

Now I have 1 slot left.

I think the idea is that you get two additional trinket slots.  So you go from 4 slots to 6.  One of those is taken up by the backpack, but you still have 5 open trinket slots (one-more than would be possible otherwise).

The main issue I see with this is trinkets don't automatically un-equip when the allowed amount of trinkets drops.  So you as long as you filled up your trinket slots, you could pass the backpack around to get 5 open slots for all your champs.  It should be a simple bug to fix, I think.

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April 23, 2013 4:27:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums
I agree. Using the pack should at least increase your net number of open slots.
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April 23, 2013 4:58:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm going to rant here.  This thread seems as good a place as any.

Over the years since Stardock first released Elemental: War Of Magic, I've seen Stardock retreat from several good concepts.

We used to have Dynasties, boats, stat bonuses, options to retreat from combat, global teleport, individual mana pools, large (12 unit) army stacks, the list goes on and on.

IMHO, all of these things made WOM a really cool game.  Your Sovereign felt like some powerful being, but as feature after feature was nerfed, Sovereigns have been made less and less powerful.

I had no problem with having a powerful Sovereign, because the AI's also had powerful Sovereigns that could do  pretty much the same to you that you could do to them.  This really just came down to tweaking the AI to take advantage of the game's features.

So instead of 'manning up' and taking on the balance and other issues, we've seen feature after feature removed from the game.

Some good stuff has been added, I will grant that, and some good progress on what is left has been made.  But at the end of the day, I find myself really just wanting the stability of the current build, and a handful of the newer features, with everything we had in E:WOM 1.0.

Removing encumberance, IMHO, is just another retreat by the developers, because they didn't want to have to be bothered with tweaking it a bit more.  I didn't notice anything amiss when encumberance was in place, and I'm sure that any 'misapplied' modifiers could have been fixed.

 

I do think that LH is a good game, and I'm glad that the reviewers are receiving it well.  However, the missed potential of this game will always nag at me.  Brad had the initial design right, it just needed some love IMHO, not an axe.

 

The designers are doing a great job with the game overall, don't get me wrong.  And I do appreciate the developer's efforts to make the May deadline, and I know that some last minute decisions need to be made as to what's worth fixing and what needs to be jettisoned.  I can only hope that we will see more of those concepts that many of liked re-incorporated in future versions.

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April 23, 2013 5:00:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Rant away... dear.. I agree with almost all of what you say.  Just not much we can do about ti?  Unless its still in the code somewhere?

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April 23, 2013 7:51:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

As someone who has dug through the code a great deal I can tell you the ability to make most of that happen again is there but does not work directly because the executable restricts it in its current form.  Here are a list t of a few things that work, some that sort of work, and those that don't at all.

Alright works with the current code;

Option to retreat is still in the game it just has to be readded back into each tactical map there is also the escape spell which can be made into a skill talent for commanders allowing for a strategic retreat.

Large Army stacks can be added back in relatively easy and have been through the realism mod.

Global teleport can be modded in, I think.

Encumbrance can be modded back in and I can verify this one, the only thing lost is the UI that shows how encumbered you are.

Alright those that sort of work from your list given above;

Dynasties can be force implemented through the cheat function to have a wife and kids spawn.

Stat bonuses can sort of be turned back on but they do not all work the way listed within the Elemental Defs file.

Alright the things that do not work;

Individual mana pools do not work when readded back into the game, I tried for a long while to readd them back into E:WoM after patch 1.10 since that was the one that removed it.

New stats with different bonuses associated with them, the game does not update talent points on the fly like it does for game modifiers for spells.

 

I do not know how to readd boats other than they are in certain scenarios and specific maps.

 

That is all I know for sure that I can think of while studying for may last final.

 

I do agree that removing these from the main game has detracted from the complexity but more so they lost some of the epicness of the game because of the depth you had to try harder and pay attention deeper to how you played.  Now its build cities, make units, research, kill things, kill other factions or quest or spell of making and game over.  The extra stuff is slowly being removed.  Its the extra stuff that made this game unique compared to other TBS and RTS.

 

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April 24, 2013 4:42:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting halmal242,
Dynasties can be force implemented through the cheat function to have a wife and kids spawn.

There is also a switch in the ElementalDefs.xml, which reactivates dynasties. However, I never tried it, so I can't tell how well it works.

 

 

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April 24, 2013 5:19:55 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting tjashen,

 Removing encumberance, IMHO, is just another retreat by the developers, because they didn't want to have to be bothered with tweaking it a bit more.  I didn't notice anything amiss when encumberance was in place, and I'm sure that any 'misapplied' modifiers could have been fixed.

I do think that LH is a good game, and I'm glad that the reviewers are receiving it well.  However, the missed potential of this game will always nag at me.  Brad had the initial design right, it just needed some love IMHO, not an axe.

The designers are doing a great job with the game overall, don't get me wrong.  And I do appreciate the developer's efforts to make the May deadline, and I know that some last minute decisions need to be made as to what's worth fixing and what needs to be jettisoned.  I can only hope that we will see more of those concepts that many of liked re-incorporated in future versions.

+1

You make a really, really good point here. I 100% agree with your feeling.

IMHO, it is OK that the devs removed some features from E:WoM to FE as a way to not spread themselves too thin. Instead of trying to do everything at once, focus on a few things and get them well. Then, once that selected set of features works like a bliss, add back the other features, slowly. Honestly, that's what I thougt that would happen. And here is when things are starting to go wrong... again.

The problem was not that the scope of FE was limited in order to do less things in a better way, the problem is to continue limiting that scope in the expansion, removing even more features and changing features that don't need to be changed (at most fixed or improved).

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April 24, 2013 5:22:34 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting halmal242,

 Individual mana pools do not work when readded back into the game, I tried for a long while to readd them back into E:WoM after patch 1.10 since that was the one that removed it. 

Even the simplest (or "streamlined" as Marketing guys like to say) games have this feature. Why was it removed? Specially when the solution has been there from AoW1, a global mana pool that can be channelled in small amounts depending on the caster's proficiency.

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April 24, 2013 6:13:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It was removed because individual mana pools didn't work in this game and people were asking for a global mana pool.

I understand some of the frustration here, but the stuff that was cut and changed almost always has been reflected in the wishes of the community. As annoying as it may seem, but games can break very easily because they try to do too much and WoM was a prime example for that. A game might not go the route you personally would like it to, but you have mods for that.

Personally, I welcome the removal of encumbrance. After a short phase of doubting the decision, I don't really see anymore how it added anything to the depth of the game. The properties of each item and the trait trees of each class still need a big overhaul to reflect that of course, but I like the direction it is going.

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April 24, 2013 6:23:32 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree that games can break when they try to do too much (in fact I said a couple of posts above). The problem is not focusing on a subset of features. The problem is to continue reducing this subset of features and cuting more and more features. With each iteration the game become less deep and enjoyable.

The reason why encumbrance didn't add much was because it only had effect at two points. So again oversimplification is the problem. Instead of having arbitrary points at which the effects jump a more gradual organic approach would feel better.

As tjashen says, everytime something does not work it just gets axed instead of fixed. Perhaps individual mana pools suffered the same destiny.

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April 24, 2013 10:34:33 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Global mana is fine for strategic spell use; however, for tactical spell it does not make a lick of sense.  I understand that individual mana was a means of preventing rampant magic use in tactical combat but the replacement of that with cooldown timers and by late game almost unlimited mana use is not fun.   When the npc factions have no concept of mana usage and can go negative to infinity this does not equal balanced at all.

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April 24, 2013 4:12:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Rant mode still on.

 

Individual mana pools worked just fine.  Sure, a few spell costs needed some love, but spellcasting worked just fine, and heroes were faced with the classic 'sword or sorcery' dilemma when leveling up (boosting Essence or other stats).

I've always felt that instead of creeping up on balance, that the developers have fallen into the trap of making lots of sweeping changes, and placating certain groups of posters because the game wasn't working the way THEY thought it should.  The number one complaint that I remember was cities, and how 'tedious' they were.

That 'placating posters' argument also applies to people like me, but then I'm a luddite when it comes to Elemental, as I fell in love with E:WOM, even with it's flaws.

 

Well, just so I could make sure I wasn't just embellishing my old WOM experience in my mind, I reloaded 1.0 E:WOM, and played it a bit last night.  Things that immediately stood out:

1) Cities could build units and structures at the same time.  This sped up gameplay considerably, but I found myself in a gildar/resource crunch for most of the early game, so doing both at once was not always possible.  Plus, saving money for heroes also limited this.  In the later game, I used this more, as I finally had my economy going, but this was good as I had lots of things to fight.  Again, doing both at the same time speeds up play, which I think was a good thing.

2) The initial design for the interface wasn't really bad at all.  I liked having the progress bars for spells and tech at the bottom.  Plus, the ovals around the cities showed time to complete for projects (left side buildings, right side units).  While the city progress bars continue to this day, the ovals were a nice artistic touch, and lent themselves to the interface design.

3) Boats are still fun.

4) While I didn't play long enough for the kids to mature, I had two boys working their ways to adulthood.  Which brings up some interesting discussions about having kids on the road when the two heroes are far apart from each other... And this brought back memories of the discussions about the uber kids.  Again, with some tweaking, the kid's stats could have fallen more in line, but this is an area where I felt that we could have crept up on the solution instead of tossing the babies out with the bathwater.  Overall, though, I loved the dynasty concept and want it back in future Elemental games.

5) Stats.  Sure, some people just hate when people min-max stuff, but a lot of us love trying out various combinations to see what works, and E:WOM 1.0 had the potential for multiple combinations in spades.  And it did it simply, without long skill trees.  Sure, the stats needed a little tweaking r.e. cost versus effect, but overall they worked.  Did you want this hero to be fast in combat, or faster on the map?  Tougher offensively? Tougher defenses?  More essence?  Higher intelligence (more damage for spells?).  Lots of choices.

6) Crashing.  Yes, E:WOM 1.0 crashes a LOT.  Even with my memory upgrade, the dreaded 'ping' sound still showed up.  However, if I could have E:WOM 1.0 with the stability of E:LH, that'd be hella cool.

7) No incremental patches.  I was looking through the old E:WOM forums for older patches, to try to pick that 'sweet spot' just before concepts were getting tossed out/coded out, so I could maximize my old school E:WOM experience, but alas you can only patch to 1.4.

8) Heroes.  Lots of heroes.  Yeah, these guys were cannon fodder.  But everyone had them, so as long as the AI was also snagging them left and right like I was, there was balance in the world.  This actually relates to one of my gripes about E:WOM, that is the lack of distinction between them.  If I could have some of the new traits/path trees with large number of E:WOM heroes, and still have stats/essence (so I could actually customize 'parties' of heroes), that'd be cool.

9) Combat - initially this was side a goes, then side b goes.  Each side would do all of it's actions before the other side could act.  Going to initiative order was a good change, although I still like how the old speed stat worked.  E:LH seems to allow more actions for higher initiatives, I think.  At least I've seen my Air Elementals doing multiple attacks on slower creatures, in turn.  So if I could have the old E:WOM speed stat, with the 'round robin' approach to initiative (each unit takes a single action, then the next unit, in order of initiative, takes an action, etc. until you've used all of your action points), that'd be cool.  Tedius, perhaps, but that's about as close to simultaneous combat as you can get with turn based.  I could elaborate more on this, but it's kind of pointless since speed, as it used to work, is gone now.

 

Sure, E:WOM had issues, but I found myself enjoying my jaunt back onto the old tan maps. 

 

So, if I had to point out anything new that is bothering be about E:LH, it'd be pacing.  Even on fast, in E:LH it takes a LOOOONG time to build things, develop technologies, and advance heroes.  Some people like this, but I liked the pacing of the original E:WOM better. 

In E:WOM, it seems like there were a lot more immediate rewards for doing stuff.  Techs and spells were advancing at a good clip, cities constantly needed attention, with every building you added making an immediate if incremental impact on things, and lots of monsters and heroes to chase down.  Not to mention those pesky AI players... plus the 'Adventure' tech always kept goody huts fresh, so you'd be crossing the map back and forth to get at the newly spawned huts.  Overall, the game kept you very engaged.  Sure some of it was tedious, but again I think that with tweaks here and there (more interesting quests and such), the original E:WOM was a good game on the cusp of being a great one.

 

I think E:LH is a very good game as well.  I just want Brad and the other designers to stop doubting themselves about all the things they tried to do in E:WOM.  Because there is gold there, that just needs some love.

 

 

 

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April 24, 2013 4:44:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


^ I second that opinión.

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April 25, 2013 10:09:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I reject the two opinions above me.

 

1) I like making tough choices between infrastructure and military.

2) Don't care much, but think UI is better now

3) Boats have almost never been fun in any game ever.

4a) The kid system was a joke deserving of much mockery.

4b) I think everyone in the kingdom knows how I "magically" impregnated my wife while warring an entire continent away from her.

5) I like choices, not just seeing numbers increase. Stats were no brainers or traps, and have been in nearly every system they have been implemented in including D&D, Diablo 2, etc.

6) I'd rather crash to desktop over and over than play E:WoM again

7) Not sure what you mean by this. LH will follow the same patch pattern as E:WoM once it's released I'm sure.

8a) I think everyone here agrees that "Legendary" Heroes is a bad title for the game in its current state.

8b) I feel that I have more champions that I can take advantage of at the moment. Of course, some of that is because of xp splitting and scarcity.

9) I forget what "speed" is, but I think it's pretty similar to initiative, which does give extra actions.

 

One thing I was impressed with in both FE and LH is the pacing of city building. Even dedicated building will struggle to have nothing left to build but troops. I like the direction they went with this, since it gives choice without "maintenance math" that the Civ games were hamstrung by at higher difficulty levels.

 

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April 25, 2013 10:09:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Oh... I forgot to say this...

 

JUST IMAGINE HOW POWERFUL BACKPACKS WOULD BE IF YOU COULD STACK THEM!!?!? OMG!!!

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