Combat ends movement - An ElementalDefs Tag would be better than Nothing

By on March 28, 2013 2:19:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Furibar

Join Date 04/2003
0

Maybe I missed something, a thread in this forum or a game option, but ... I was happy that this "feature" had disappeared from FE (I don't really remember when and I don't know why).

Anyone knows the reason why it is back in LH ? Or how to disable it ? I couldn't find any tag that could solve this in ElementalDefs.

 

EDIT april 2013

Frogboy told us that they don't plan to change it back. A few options to modify this are discussed in the following posts.

I still think that a tag in ElementalDefs is a fair and simple solution.

 

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April 3, 2013 2:43:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sorry, I think this makes the game better and should stay. Single mega stacks are less likely to win an entire war in one turn, which was possible. 

This will make the AI a little harder to defeat and outmaneuver. 

I vote it stays. 

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April 3, 2013 2:48:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like it from a balance point of view.  If you want to clear a lair you can have a second hero in a separate army with reserve troops - makes sense.

Otherwise, your ability to conquer and kill enemies is a function of how many moves you have, which with mounts can get pretty insane.

I quite fancy the idea of actually using Tarth as guerilla fighters as they were meant to be, instead of never getting the initiative and attack bonus because the army's too big.

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April 3, 2013 3:02:16 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

While I see the point of the change and don't disagree with it 100%, the problem then becomes that I can spam small militia groups to keep an army away from targets, assuming I'm close enough and the supply chain is uninterrupted. It's a giant legion of cavalry stopping for an entire season to massacre a tiny platoon.

Perhaps there is a middle ground?

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April 4, 2013 12:04:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It certainly seems unfair to defeat a city/resource, but not being able to claim it. It also seems a bit unfair to have to spend all remaining movement points when you attack, especially if you could subdivide the group prior to battle and have the smaller group keep movement going. I don't mind there being a penalty to attack, but deleting remaining movement seems like too much of a penalty.

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April 4, 2013 12:14:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I liked it better when combat didn't end turns.  The lair cleaning problem is super annoying.  I was super ticked off the first time I cleared a lair and then the AI stole the reward from me.  Very un-fun that was.

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April 4, 2013 12:39:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't mind that combat ends the turn, though I agree with others that it makes looting more annoying.  My pet peeve is that attacking caravans and pioneers ends movement. I had a ridiculous series of events where I went to attack a city and ended up attacking the caravan that was bizarrely on-top of the city.  Which ended my turn.  Which allowed the city to be reinforced.  Which didn't matter because I was ROFLstomping

 

I think, at the very least, if your army takes no damage it shouldn't end movement.

 

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April 4, 2013 7:39:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm pretty heavily against combat ending your turn. FE/LH is already a slow game to play, making combat end your turn just adds another layer of micromanaging by encouraging you to split your army so that you have a follow up group to take the loot after you kill the monsters. Stardock should be reducing the need to micromanage (eg by implementing production overflow, fixing pathing bugs, etc) rather than increasing the need!

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April 4, 2013 8:43:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Could we just make it so that combat takes more than one move?  If for example any combat takes two moves, you could plan around moving into position, fighting, and then moving into the lair you cleared.  I can understand the balance thing about mega stacks but it is very aggravating to have an AI player come swooping in and take the reward.  Perhaps just change those tiles so that after the battle the reward be given to you afterwards like in quests? 

Another thing about the mega stacks of heroes...isn't this already somewhat addressed due to wanting to split up your champions for efficient experience gain?

Edit:  The mega stack thing also brings to mind the argument that if you let your enemy get to that point, or they let you get to that level, don't you/they deserve the result?

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April 4, 2013 8:50:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In overall consideration, if the priority is to leave it as is, don't change it. Instead, put it in the XML so players can make their own mind, just like most other things. This is what really gives players the most fun, after all.

 

In my "game", I would change attacking to cost 2 movement points. Most units never get above 5 movement, so move 2, attack (cost 2) then move one more is reasonable. Of course, attack, move, move, attack isn't reasonable. I will just have to take this one as it is and look for workarounds, maybe a spell that grants one extra "move action" or something.

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April 4, 2013 10:19:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting AlienFromBeyond,

Yeah, it's begun to get on my nerves, kill enemies on a lair only to have the AI steal the rewards from you. I've started doing the same to them it's so annoying. AFAIK this was pretty much the reason for getting rid of it, so you could kill and loot in one turn.

Yes, I was trapped by an AI stack, a lair and water.  The only way out (after passing for 5 turns) was to kill the lair.  But with all movement gone the AI got my loot.

If the devs think it is necessary to end movement after combat then they need to make it so that you take the square that had the army you just killed.

 

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April 4, 2013 10:55:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Whoops

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April 4, 2013 10:56:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

It's not likely to change back.  We did this in order to balance against single mega stacks.

You mean you did this to make the AI's favored tactic of an endless tide of abject garbage stronger.

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April 4, 2013 11:25:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This is clearly a problem. Those thinking it's not haven't thought it through.

Your party comes up to a camp, decides to attack, runs inside and attacks, then after winning the battle they.... Decide to walk outside the camp and wait for next SEASON to loot? It shouldn't work like that at all. 

Please fix this Stardock!

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April 5, 2013 4:48:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
It's not likely to change back.  We did this in order to balance against single mega stacks.

Didn't notice Frogboy had commented on this.

If mega stacks winning multiple battles in a turn are the problem then just make each army only able to attack once per turn. That is a much tidier solution than making all movement stop and it allows the player to still take loot if they win a battle (assuming they have enough moves).

Current solution seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me.

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April 5, 2013 8:36:41 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Schweiz,
Is it possible then so that when you kill a stack, or a random mob, you move into its square? So you can kill and loot in one turn? I always thought it was weird that in attacking them I didn't end up in their square once conquered. Chess has already implemented this feature .

This is a very logical suggestion.  I am all for ending movement on the world map when combat occures but if you are the attacker and win then you should occupy the tile you just fought over since that is the tile you tried to move into to start combat.  Most games already do this.

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April 5, 2013 9:04:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Attack once per turn ... or attack moves you into the square both seem better than what we had.

I am reminded of Civ IV where most units could only attack once.  You had to have an upgrade to be able to attack more than once per turn.  I wouldn't mind seeing something like that.

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April 6, 2013 5:35:48 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

if army moved into tile, it shoud move into tile instantly, and then engage any enemy in this tile, one by one, after enemy units wiped, army shoud automatically loot\pillage\capture whatever.

this will not allow to stop army, it will still move, but only single tile per turn, no more loot stolen but no win in single turn allowed.

 

also this will allow to stack hurge amount of units inside single cell, this will allow to defend strategic locations from any mega stack without issues, no stack will be able to defeat 5-6 full armies in single turn.

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April 6, 2013 3:51:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Mistwraithe,
If mega stacks winning multiple battles in a turn are the problem then just make each army only able to attack once per turn. That is a much tidier solution than making all movement stop and it allows the player to still take loot if they win a battle (assuming they have enough moves).

Current solution seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me.

I was just about to post this same thing.  Except without the disturbing idiom.  

Basically, once a stack has initiated combat, none of the units in that stack may initiate combat again that turn, but they may continue to move (provided they have movement left).

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April 7, 2013 9:36:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ben_sphynx,

If there is unclaimed loot in the square you are fighting over, and you win the fight and the square is now empty, you should get the loot. No need to move into the square, but you should be able to collect the spoils of war after the fight.
This happened to me. Rounded up my forces, but they only made a strong army. Saw a deadly monster army. Took them on. Actually won.

Next turn, a nearby empire had moved into that square, and stole the fame from it, despite me immediately moving when the turn ended. I declared war over that, and took his capital city, getting me his tower of dominion, so it wasn't all bad... But still, as long as the AI has the ability to profit from something I killed, I will not be happy.

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April 7, 2013 10:23:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting StevenAus,

Or provide an option to automatically take the square if you just defeated the last enemy on it.

 

I like this idea best.

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April 8, 2013 3:43:11 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It would need to make sure to trigger the square too.  But if any battle (against monsters, or against AI players) if you defeat the last enemy, you should move automatically onto and trigger the square.  Probably so many would use this that it may as well become the default, which would help the AI too.

Although it could be an option each time for players and an always-on for AI, so for example, if you defeat an AI player's army sitting on a resource, you may not want to move because you will be capturing the city and won't have to rebuild the resource.  Either way it would help the AI a lot because it is quite easy to steal the AIs rewards if you're near at the time.

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April 8, 2013 6:07:49 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Mistwraithe,

Quoting Frogboy, reply 10It's not likely to change back.  We did this in order to balance against single mega stacks.

Didn't notice Frogboy had commented on this.

If mega stacks winning multiple battles in a turn are the problem then just make each army only able to attack once per turn. That is a much tidier solution than making all movement stop and it allows the player to still take loot if they win a battle (assuming they have enough moves).

Current solution seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me.

Agreed.

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April 8, 2013 8:27:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Schweiz,

Is it possible then so that when you kill a stack, or a random mob, you move into its square? So you can kill and loot in one turn? I always thought it was weird that in attacking them I didn't end up in their square once conquered. Chess has already implemented this feature .

Agree with this, as long as the conquered square is empty of enemies.

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