Heroes and leveling - boring?

By on March 22, 2013 2:19:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

bpalczewski

Join Date 05/2010
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first of all, all the exp enhancing skills are the must, if hero is planned to develop. Thus, for couple of levels nothing happens .... I personally think those should be gone, exp enhancers are too good to pass on them, on the other hand, they are totally boring ... 

second, warrior's skills are kind of boring +1 attack, +2 attack and so on for like 6-7 levels before you get sweep ... On the other hand, playing wizard: you have all this summons, new spells etc. and leveling is way more exciting ... 

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March 22, 2013 2:24:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree that warriors could use more 'offshoot skills' off the lethal line.

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March 22, 2013 2:35:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yeah, I'd consider D&D 4e type solutions for making warrior combats more interesting.  For example, maybe let a defender attacks automatically "mark" someone to not let them attack someone else except at penalty.  This makes the defender sticky.

Damage dealing warriors might have a rage.  

Warlord types might be able to give someone else a turn.  

 

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March 22, 2013 2:45:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Agreed. The system as a whole is pretty awesome but especially warriors need some more interesting choices. 

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March 22, 2013 2:45:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'll get this feedback to Derek, I agree that there could be a little more 'sizzle' to the warrior tree in particular. It's very very good (those attack bonuses are really good, if not exciting), but it could be more interesting

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March 22, 2013 2:57:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

On the assassin tree, the synergies seem pretty terrible- why should I have to go through the dodge tree to get arrow swarm- that makes no sense to me.  Also 3 levels of nothing but raising dodge is boring.

 

I think the common problem is that it takes too long to get to the fun stuff.

 

Agreed on the potential traits not being worth keeping.

 

To me, the real issue is that there's little reason to switch up strategy- some of this is due to the lack of being able to kill enemy heroes for awesome weapons/mounts, then basing a synergy off that weapon.   It was a cheese tactic though.   Also, there will be a best path- some randomness is needed to keep the game interesting.

 

 The mage tree should be determined by element- and perhaps things like summoning ignys should require Pyromancy + Summon, where Summon can branch off into different paths, as can Pyromancy (between spells or raw fire damage)

 

 The main reason I am disliking the new mechanic- I'm unsure if it's because the mechanic is fatally flawed, or just not properly implemented yet- I'm leaning towards a combo of these needs to be some randomness, but the mechanic can work.

 

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March 22, 2013 4:21:48 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Eh, warriors are just cannon fodder anyway. It's all about the magic/wizards, guys.

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March 22, 2013 5:54:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree, the trees as they stand are sort of bland. They help with the ridiculously random nature of leveling that was present before, but the problem I think is that they use the same upgrades as the initial setup. This leads to what was before a problem of "ohhh, this is an option now, I'll grab that!" or "Meh, there's nothing very good here, I'll take +1 defense." is now a problem of ohhh, I want this, so I have to get hmmm, three or four completely unrelated skills... that seems odd.

I think it will take a rethink of the entire skill system, to make things seem a bit more coherent. The trees concept is fine, but the old skills don't exactly fit into the new system well.

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March 23, 2013 3:30:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ya I used to play warrior every game in FE.  In Legendary Heroes Ive picked warrior on 3 starts and its so boring as well as weak.  Its a struggle to level heroes compared to FE.  Warrior is now the most useless class in the game.  In FE a warrior with good equipment could compete with unit stacks but in LH warrior heroes are inferior to stacks by far.  We need to get to the good stuff way soonger.  We should be able to get to something really cool by lvl 3-4.  This new system would work if levels came way faster.  Make levels come 50-100%  faster or compress the trees and increase the power of required skills like lethal which are total crap. 

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March 23, 2013 3:53:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I would like to see more but shorter paths (branch type paths within each class) and only have enough max levels to get some of the paths. That creates a lot fun variations for different games.

That said I really like the new system. Not only is it way more interesting than the old system but in the process of building it they came up with some cool new skills. I hope they continue to develop the system in future expansion packs but honestly alot of RPGs have shallower character development than this 4X game!

I will add my hate for XP bonus perks to the pile. I despise these because in practice they end up being always right or always wrong not creating a meaningful choice.

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March 23, 2013 3:56:54 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This is no joke, leveling is not fun. It hasn't been fun since some of the first iterations of WoM in my opinion, where balance was thrown out the door, but hey, at least it was fun. The new system just lets the player see in advance how much fun they are not going to have.

It takes so long to level, and instead of getting something new and awesome for that work we are now 1/3 to 1/7 of the way closer to getting something that is at least cool (there really aren't many new abilities outside the mage tree). This is the old, old school approach to leveling, where you work for 10 hours to finally be able to do something cool. I think Diablo 3, Skyrim, and Fallout 3/NV are the modern approach with good reason. Why should players be such masochists to grind  most of the game wanting to be able to do something cool? Let them do something new and cool all the time! 

Maybe sovereign trees need to be separate from hero trees. I could tolerate heros just getting these bland, so so increases to stats all the time, but the sovereign must be fun to level. The mage tree is a good start, but even then, you have to sacrifice getting good at elements to be a summoner. +2 levels to summon is like fodder between getting something fun.

If you are going to make level 10+ be endgame levels, the trees can't be this long.

 

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March 23, 2013 4:44:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Some warrior skill ideas for SD:

Bludgeon: [Active, requires blunt weapons skill] This attack gets +100% bash chance on target enemy

Decimate: [Active, requires blunt mastery] This attack gets +25% (ie overpower) per unit and +100% bash chance to target enemy

Parry and Riposte: [Active, requires expert sword] Unit enters defensive stance, with attack value added to defense; +1 counter attack

Coup de Gras: [Active, requires sword mastery] If target unit is under 50% hp, a successful hit will instantly kill the unit

Hamstring: [Active, requires axe expert] Target unit (Men or beast or faction unit) is attacked for 50% and receives -3 initiative.

Also, I think Revenge should be changed to: Anytime unit is successfully struck in melee combat she receives an immediate counterattack.

Anywho, just some random thoughts.

 

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March 23, 2013 9:11:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I want to preface this by saying the game as a whole is coming together to be great, an individual fantasy tbs that is unlike any other. I am not a hater.

I think those are great ideas mpqmiffle. I think that is the right track. New abilities are tangible, you use, see them and you know you have gained something cool. +1 attack is very uncool, and to have it 7 times over, I don't know what the spreadsheets look like, but it feels from a player's perspective to be a miniscule improvement for 5-10 battles time (up to 2 hours of playing time for some champions). I don't even know the attack formula to even know what +1 attack even means! I know big attack numbers are good, but 20 vs. 21 is not something I have ever noticed a difference in. I notice a difference when the 45 attack ogre hits me, big time. I don't even know if +1 attack is worth 1 hit point of damage on average, I suspect it is less. Who could get excited by doing 0.8 more hit points of damage per attack? Who could get excited about the prospect of spending 10 hours to get +5.6 hit points of damage per attack?

I know hardcore games are about delayed gratification, but if there is nothing exciting to look forward to it is masochistic.

The game as a whole is beautiful, but the rpg side is not sexy at all. It is too much work for goals which if they were in a pure rpg game it could only have been popular in the 80's (like Dragon Warrior or The Bard's Tale). That is old school to even people who went to that school and loved it at the time. The new way (like Diablo 3 leveling) is much, much better.

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March 23, 2013 9:13:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kestral2040,

I'll get this feedback to Derek, I agree that there could be a little more 'sizzle' to the warrior tree in particular. It's very very good (those attack bonuses are really good, if not exciting), but it could be more interesting
Look at the Defender one too. It's just as boring.

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March 23, 2013 10:16:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Agreed, warriors and defender need love

 

Good suggestions quiffle.

 

Defender bonuses could give armies benefits for fighting in their territory!

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March 23, 2013 10:48:59 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Borg999,
Eh, warriors are just cannon fodder anyway. It's all about the magic/wizards, guys.

Nope it's all about the Beast Masters they will slaughter your lil magic wizards now. :_)

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March 24, 2013 12:25:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree with everyone here.  The endless chains of +1 to passive ability stuff is terrible.  So boring and unexciting.  

You shouldn't have to choose +1 to attack.  Heck, you should be getting that for FREE with every level up if you're a warrior.

And the reason mages seem to have +xp is because they simply can't slaughter things as quickly as a warrior can I think.

The plus to spell resistence chain also kills me.  I would probably never choose that skill, except it unlocks stuff.  So now maybe I have to?  Lame.  In most leveling systems, spell resistence, hp, attack ALL go up when you level.  And you get interesting stuff.  Throw out the chicken feed skills. 

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March 24, 2013 12:33:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I would like to see the weapon maneuver skills deal damage based on level additionally to their current, which would make them all useful.

 

Also, effects are more useful than damage. I would rather lose my next turn to "risk" knocking a target prone or confusing them for 3 turns than "risk" dealing 2x damage. This is because I might roll "low damage" to get critical, making the status effect better.

 

Impale is a case where this can be seen. The first target should take x2 damage and the second should take normal damage.

 

Another good effect would be "lose next turn, "risk" causing opponent unable to use skills or spells for 3 rounds.

 

I personally think the weapon skills are a step in the right direction but they need more meat, more strength. Spells deal more damage based on shards, have these skills do more damage based on something. level or strength/dex is perfect because they increase on using the unit.

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March 24, 2013 12:47:51 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Had a suggestion for maces posted in the AI thread

 

replace crushing blow with skull bash:

 

Skull bash has an accuracy penalty, but if successful (based on damage vs hp of unit), the unit loses accuracy and spell mastery.  Best against champs.

 

 

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March 24, 2013 9:21:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree with what's been said about the trees needing some rearranging.  Here is my input on the trees.

 

Warrior - The tree is boring, and even though there are some flavorful or unique abilities on the tree, you just know that taking lethal 1,2,3,4,5 is just more efficient.  I would definitely break up the lethal line from being just a straight 1->5 and change it so you want/have to take some other skills.  The specific weapon skills chains need some love, partly because they are competing with the lethal line.  Add in a reduced cooldown on the bash and cleave to the mace and axe skills, and give swordsman something like an extra counter or a weapon ability for a master swordsman would be cool.

Mage - This is my favorite tree, but I think the evoker section suffers from the same thing as the lethal.  At least you don't feel compelled to take it because you can focus on summoning or utility spells.  I also wonder if the role of having a spellbook is diminished some by the trait tree.  Also I think the Warlock profession should be changed because the trait tree can already add enough damage at will and could use more flavor/balancing.

Defender - My 2nd least favorite tree that needs a lot of work.  Spell resistance chain is too long/linear.  I  suggest taking stun off the end, and making obsidian guard an offshoot chain.  I would also add in some traits that actually improve this unit's defense aside from defending.  Warrior gets traits to improve base damage so a defender should get traits to improve base defense.  The tree ending in shieldwall is long also.  One thing I do like about the tree is that there are some nifty abilities in there, like guard, withstand and rescue.  These are the kind of abilities that make combat fun.  Also revenge (+1 damage when hit) would fit well in this tree somewhere.

Assassin - I think this tree is better designed than most, by looking at the layout, but I also have not used this one in game much yet.  I would suggest more with using a ranged weapon.

Commander - My least favorite and I think you need to rework the whole tree and concept, but I think that is already being done.

General - I am not a fan of potential line.

 

Abilities that you can use in battle are the best kind of trait, chains that are too long are not good, and that you should never feel forced into taking something.  You could also add level requirements to some of the abilities in the chains, like you did for mages, if abilities are so strong that you want to delay a player taking them but you also don't want to make the tree too long, just to force a player into taking crap to get there.

 

 

 

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March 24, 2013 9:30:41 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Instead of abilities unlocking with their own trait pick, for the most part they should unlock along with other picks.

So basically each ability choice unlocks a passive stat boost or ability and an active tactical ability (if applicable.)

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March 24, 2013 10:34:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't like the liner progression of skill trees, in every game the level up process will be the same. I'd rather the skills be random so that it's a different experience every time you play. Even though you are given 4 or 5 choices to pick your next skill it's same the 4 or 5 choice every game, it's boring.

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March 24, 2013 10:47:40 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

first of all, all the exp enhancing skills are the must, if hero is planned to develop. Thus, for couple of levels nothing happens .... I personally think those should be gone, exp enhancers are too good to pass on them, on the other hand, they are totally boring ... 

 

Agree, remove the increase exp gain skills. The mage path has a +25 % one.

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March 24, 2013 1:20:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

 

Quoting Hozy,

I don't like the liner progression of skill trees, in every game the level up process will be the same. I'd rather the skills be random so that it's a different experience every time you play. Even though you are given 4 or 5 choices to pick your next skill it's same the 4 or 5 choice every game, it's boring.

There needs to be a middle ground between pure randomness and 100% predictability. Is it true that every "Warrior" has the exact same trait tree? If so does it matter which champion you get, except for the initial traits?

It's be great if each champion can only choose between 2 or 3 paths and not all... Seems odd that no matter which champion they can be a warrior, mage, assasin, governer etc. 

There also should be some small amount of randomness so not all the warrior traits trees are the same. That would makes thing a lot more interesting, so you level up to warrior, and then it would be interesting to see how your warrior trait tree looked for this champion which might be a little diff from another warrior.

Each champion also should have some special favour, some special trait or ability only that champion has. I hate to mention another game called MOM..... 

 

 

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March 24, 2013 5:43:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting mqpiffle,

Instead of abilities unlocking with their own trait pick, for the most part they should unlock along with other picks.

So basically each ability choice unlocks a passive stat boost or ability and an active tactical ability (if applicable.)

This is the best idea. I also think the passive bonuses are way too stingy. Champions are very underpowerd now, since you can't effectively stack them and a trained unit is like a group of champions at a certain point. A trained unit can get the effect of picking 7 levels of lethal times 3-6 (group size) by upgrading their weapon, without fighting 40 battles to do it! Champions can't compete in melee or ranged once you pump units out. 

The situation is really bad with the current trees. You can't level the champions you get to ever get deep in the trees to begin with because leveling is so slow and the passive bonuses seem impressive by name (lethal) but in reality they have very little game effect.  A level of lethal is probably at most a hit point of damage on average, but an extra +1 on a weapon is 3-6 times this on a unit, with far less work involved. +2 dodge? Two percent chance to not get hit for battle after battle of work?

I don't like to pile on, but the leveling situation is way, way off the mark. I am surprised it has stayed this way for so long.

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March 25, 2013 12:03:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Perhaps the leveling formula should give quicker EXP and remove the second and third EXP perk, making the first one 20%. This way a mage with 20% and 45% will be "special".

 

The exp perk should either be the first perk in a tree or the last. It could be the last if the leveling were quicker. This would mean a mage can pick its special exp perk right away and the last later. That would force a mage off the normal path to choose both, and it would require a commitment to get. However this would only work if the leveling were faster.

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