[1.3.2 BUG] Brad, will you please schedule 4 hours on your calendar next Tuesday to write AI code that performs immunity checks before attacking?

By on March 14, 2013 1:09:54 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Trojasmic

Join Date 04/2006
+40

The AI does not perform immunity checks before attacking.  I know this has been reported numerous times before and there are numerous examples of this ... here's one:

AI Dragons breathing fire on my fire elementals has no effect.

P.S.  I assume this will be even more important in LH with things like immunity to physical weapon damage so please FIX IT!

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March 14, 2013 2:43:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Also interesting when you have a mixed stack of resistant creatures with non-resistant in a strategic spell situation.  A stack with an Ophidian in it is immune to some strategic spells (tremor and freeze in my experience).  I can't remember if tidal wave or tornado worked on the mixed stacks...

 

I have also witnessed the behavior Trojasmic describes in tactical with Ignys and fire shrills vs. fire elementals.

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March 14, 2013 2:58:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This is a pretty major AI issue, though I could see "stupid" monsters trying it.

 

 

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March 14, 2013 3:21:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

The AI does not perform immunity checks before attacking.  I know this has been reported numerous times before and there are numerous examples of this ... here's one:

AI Dragons breathing fire on my fire elementals has no effect.

P.S.  I assume this will be even more important in LH with things like immunity to physical weapon damage so please FIX IT!

This is how you get immediate action on something!!!

P.S. That was sarcasm. I'm sure at some point it will be addressed. 

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March 14, 2013 4:03:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Illauna,
P.S. That was sarcasm. I'm sure at some point it will be addressed.

There is no hurt in stating it once in a while, sometimes a person working on a specific object will go blind to one or two flaws simply by looking at them too often.
So this is a good reminder that it would be nice to see the AI remember to check resistances and spell resistance when choosing which action to perform, and which targets to choose.
I remember some patches ago, the AI spent a whole combat trying to slow my hero with 100+ spell resistance, poor enemy hero died from inaction, and would be nice to see the AI figure this out that it doesn't work.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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March 15, 2013 2:34:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree with the OP (in spirit), though would like to chime in that the AI has gotten better each patch.  It does make me sad seeing Archers targeted by Beguile and Web.  I have faith it will get tended to ASAP when time permits.  Brad & Co are busy folks.

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March 15, 2013 5:26:54 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I have faith it will get tended to ASAP when time permits.

Nope. Brad stated that he wont code a single new line for the FE AI coz he is pissed that people still complain about a number of flaws it still has.

He stated that if you don't like it the way it is then go fuck yourself and don't play his game although you have paid for it. Which is by the way the same thing that happened when folks complained about the GalCiv AI...

 

Also - like you stated - he si busy doing FH. So why would he "waste" his precious time on FE when he can use it to push FH...

 

As for the AI getting better each patch: Dunno. In my current game on challenging (which is supposed to use the AI's best algorithms) it still loses big time.

 

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March 15, 2013 6:54:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Star Adder,

Nope. Brad stated that he wont code a single new line for the FE AI coz he is pissed that people still complain about a number of flaws it still has.

He stated that if you don't like it the way it is then go fuck yourself and don't play his game although you have paid for it. Which is by the way the same thing that happened when folks complained about the GalCiv AI...
 

When people come at you unexpectedly with heads full of steam and vitriol what kind of response do you think he'd give? When the thread on listing 5 things for Modding Changes was moving along, positive responses came from Brad and Derek.  Then the other thread became a bitch fest which looked to kill any good will that was just being made as I'm sure Brad felt like he was being ganged up on.  If y'all did that to me I'd tell you to F' off as well, justified or not.

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March 15, 2013 6:56:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Star Adder,
Nope. Brad stated that he wont code a single new line for the FE AI coz he is pissed that people still complain about a number of flaws it still has.

He stated that if you don't like it the way it is then go fuck yourself and don't play his game although you have paid for it. Which is by the way the same thing that happened when folks complained about the GalCiv AI...



Also - like you stated - he si busy doing FH. So why would he "waste" his precious time on FE when he can use it to push FH...



As for the AI getting better each patch: Dunno. In my current game on challenging (which is supposed to use the AI's best algorithms) it still loses big time.

I'm pretty sure Brad is just getting sick of the negative comments. It is safe to assume that development on Fallen Enchantress has stopped unless Brad decides to do some solo work like he did after War of Magic. It helps if people make nice suggestions or bug reports  and not demands.

Suggestion - The pathfinding for the AI casters cast blindness when their are alternatives. Can the AI look at health remaining and decide if a melee attack is more appropriate. i.e. When the computer would have a 97% chance to kill my unit.

Bug Report - Pathfinding here is a screen shot (or save game) that shows that the AI is taking the scenic route when I click on this square.

Demand - OMFG do you know WTf?!? you are doing FIX this now or I will burn your children and never buy a Stardock game ever again. You guys are so happy you stole all my money and kicked my cat! FIX THIS NOW OR GO F URSELF!

Demands never work. Neither do passive aggressive comments.

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March 15, 2013 8:47:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting BernieTime,
When people come at you unexpectedly with heads full of steam and vitriol what kind of response do you think he'd give?

 

A professional one.

Or would you expect your lawyer, accountant, doctor, plumber to tell you to 'F off' if you came at them with 'a head of steam'? And would you continue your patronage of them if they did so?

 

I like SD. I like that Mr Wardell (It feels weird to me to call someone by their first name when I have not been properly introduced to them), Kael and others take the time to interact with the community. I am sure that part of it is for PR/marketing reasons ('Hey the guys at SD are really cool and every now and again they will come on the boards and actually converse with you!'), but I am also certain that part of it is a genuine enjoyment of chatting with the interesting people who make up this board.

 

I like indie PC gaming companies. I want to support SD. I THINK they are not ready to produce a major game yet; I think they may need one more iteration of a less ambitious game, assess how successful it is, have another round of hiring and then look to tackle the likes of Firaxis or Paradox, making good games with the level of polish seen in games by bigger companies. I think SD is really good. I LOVE the idea of SD. I do not want this post to be construed as anything but positive.

 

But when Wardell said that he would not WASTE anymore time programming AI, I was disappointed to hear that. I won't buy from EA because of things like abandoning servers or from other companies that end support for one product prematurely to start on another. As I get older, it is not money that is the rate-limiting step in my videogaming hobby; it is time. And if a dev tells me that s/he won't waste anymore time on something s/he created, why should I waste my money or time buying it?

 

Have we all wanted to tell someone to 'kiss off' when we were irritated at work? I know I have. But for many of us (no matter what we do) we are involved in customer service to a degree. If the situation starts to escalate, the person playing the role of professional should try to deescalate the situation. Silence (on the internet, that is easy to do), give a standard CS line-'I am sorry you were dissatisfied with our product. Is there anything else I can help you with?'

 

Wardell is an adult. He doesn't need my advice. And my gut feeling is that he is a good guy. He probably behaves the same way he does on the net as he does in real life. That is fine. And I find it REALLY hard to believe that he would jeopardize the good will he has generated over this time by telling us to 'kiss off' and meaning it. If he did,  I'm sure the backlash would be swift, both here and on other forums. What I do know is that LH went from a first day purchase, sight unseen, to me waiting to see if it is worth my money and time because of that statement.

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March 15, 2013 9:07:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

How would a dragon know my hero is fire immune?  I understand the Fire elemental, but in a lot of ways, there wouldn't be anyway for the computer to know.  

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March 15, 2013 9:09:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well, a lot of bugs/misbehaviours HAVE been reported numerous times in a productive way and still haven't been worked on like e.g. the AI settling on spots where no settlement is possible or the webbing/beguiling of units on which this is useless or the AI ignoring threats like its units being pounded while it goes for the unit with the lowest HP or weakest defense. Instead new spells have been added, game mechanics have been been changed back and forth because obviously they haven't been thought through and/or playtested enough in the first place, and such.

I am not one of the people who made ANY demands. I sticked to bug reporting (although sometime I was in error of it being a bug at all *cough* ) But when I see valid complaints being ignored or at least neglected in favor of irrelevant stuff it is quite understandable that those people raise their voice a little more than before.

I've stated this time and time again: I really like what SD (including Brad of course) has accomplished with this game and despite the bugs and design flaws I enjoy playing it immensely. Also I can understand Brad's reaction to a certain degree, but this is not how he should have responded. If he was pissed then he should have logged off, taken a deep breath, think things through and reply in a fashionable manner.

Like I said: I remember having the very same discussion with him after the release of GalCiv 2 and iirc he kind of conceded to my point.

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March 15, 2013 9:16:41 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Lord Xia,

How would a dragon know my hero is fire immune?  I understand the Fire elemental, but in a lot of ways, there wouldn't be anyway for the computer to know.  

Very valid point! Personally I don't think high res or immunity should be of any concern when determining how and when to attack units. Now, that I think about it, even webbing ranged units is not a bug/misbehaviour since spiders don't know what the difference between an archer or mage and any otherr unit is...

 

More intelligent monsters or trained units on the other hand should at least take more tactical aspects into account than the HP and/or defense value.

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March 15, 2013 9:42:13 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Star Adder,
Very valid point! Personally I don't think high res or immunity should be of any concern when determining how and when to attack units. Now, that I think about it, even webbing ranged units is not a bug/misbehaviour since spiders don't know what the difference between an archer or mage and any otherr unit is...

Lets take it a step further and remove the UI then, why should I see bubbles of HP, I can't see these big flowing green boxes when I go outside and look at other people, so why should the game have them.
And how can I just put traits on my trained units? I should at least have to micromanage and give them training courses instead.

I am of course being ironic, the reason the Dragon should know when the enemy is fire immune is, it gives a more fun AI to play against, since it wont be stuck around doing outright silly things again and again.
Meaby it knows because it picked up a dragon tooth of knowing when people is fire immune, or meaby dragons are more intelligent than humans, who knows.

I just know its more fun when the AI uses the abilities in a proper fashion.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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March 15, 2013 9:45:37 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

He stated that if you don't like it the way it is then go fuck yourself and don't play his game although you have paid for it.

In Frogboy's defense, not sure that he said exactly that... I think there's a bit of poetic licence in there

Pretty sure some of his blunt responses should not be taken too literally, seems that's the way he communicates and it probably comes across worse in written form than it does in person. In fairness he *was* engaging in a discussion about the issues before things got a bit below the belt (in my opinion).

I've stated this time and time again: I really like what SD (including Brad of course) has accomplished with this game and despite the bugs and design flaws I enjoy playing it immensely. Also I can understand Brad's reaction to a certain degree, but this is not how he should have responded. If he was pissed then he should have logged off, taken a deep breath, think things through and reply in a fashionable manner.

I think that sums it up pretty well. Despite his "various idiosyncrasies" pretty sure he'd agree with that himself.

 

Regardless it's done now, let's maybe all just turn it down a notch. I know some of you guys have been at it for a while but i'm pretty sure we can get more done with constructive feedback. Kael is listening and provided some feedback in the mod requests thread now so let's see how that goes.

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March 15, 2013 9:49:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I am of course being ironic, the reason the Dragon should know when the enemy is fire immune is, it gives a more fun AI to play against, since it wont be stuck around doing outright silly things again and again.

Yep great point.  We know what is immune and what is not so the AI "player" should too... after all it's the player deciding what to attack not the dragon itself right.  

I guess you could make and argument that if you wanted more of a simulation kind of feel.... the dragon would try it once... then "learn" that it doesn't work.. then not do it again.  But that's a truckload of effort to get something like that working reasonably well.  I'd rather than time went towards other things and go with the "simple" approach of having the dragon not do it at all in the first place.


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March 15, 2013 12:32:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting BernieTime,

I agree with the OP (in spirit), though would like to chime in that the AI has gotten better each patch.  It does make me sad seeing Archers targeted by Beguile and Web.  I have faith it will get tended to ASAP when time permits.  Brad & Co are busy folks.

 

this.....

each spell should have some guidelines for AI...

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March 15, 2013 12:51:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Lord Xia,

How would a dragon know my hero is fire immune?  I understand the Fire elemental, but in a lot of ways, there wouldn't be anyway for the computer to know.  

I may be in the minority here, but I don't really care about realism.  I'm just here for the game.  If I can see enemy unit stats and make a decision based on them, then my enemies should be afforded the same luxury.  And I really like having that information.  I dislike gambling.  "Is he immune?  I don't know.  I'll just do it and hope for the best.... FRACK!  He is."

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March 15, 2013 12:51:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think the AI should be somewhat adaptive, especially for 'intelligent' mobs.

If a dragon flames a unit and it takes little or no damage it should be able to at least say "oh! i'll target that other feller next time!"

I don't think that's too unreasonable of an expectation.

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March 15, 2013 2:28:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I have the possibility (the duty!) to verify the stats of the units that I'm fighting

The AI should have it too - and I'm talking of the duty

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March 15, 2013 2:38:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Can't argue with that.

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March 15, 2013 2:49:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

My understanding is that LH has a "IsTargetWorthy" expansion.  The AI simply does a GetAIPriority on the target. So it wouldn't be my area anyway to handle.  

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March 15, 2013 3:00:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Perhaps it is just me but I *like* it when I've paid for nature's cloak and choosing fire resistance and a dragon breathes fire at me. I get to see the benefits of what I've paid for. 

 

Smart dragons don't always act smart, nor do smart people, nor smart spiders.  

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