Fallen Enchantress v1.3 fun

By on February 8, 2013 9:04:31 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
+1478

Lest you think Legendary Heroes is going to get all the fun, plain old Fallen Enchantress is getting a ton of love too.  We’re working on 1.3 and wow. I don’t want to oversell it but gameplay wise, this will be the biggest change since the pre-release builds IMO.

Where do I start? Let’s start with Diplomacy.

Diplomacy

IMO, the biggest weakness of Fallen Enchantress is the diplomacy system.  There’s still a lot of stuff that could be done here but my biggest beef has been the way the AIs interact with players and you.  One minute they’re your buddy and the next they’re declaring war.

image

Now, the schizophrenic behavior of AI players is nothing new. Heck, multiplayer games are much worse in that regard.  But it’s one area that single player games can be much better at. 

I tinkered around the edges in 1.1 and 1.2 but ultimately decided it had to be tossed out.  Sometimes, you have to nuke the system from orbit.  And so the 1.3 diplomacy system won’t really seem different at first glance but under the covers it’s a whole new world.  First, the AI no longer “calculates” relations. Instead, it fills a bucket of love (or hate) that gradually changes over time.  Because it’s now a bucket (that means your history with them matters) there’s a lot of interesting behind the scenes “stuff” I can do. 

Unfortunately, most users won’t even be aware of these changes but I think the expert players will.  For instance, AI players will be more inclined to offer peace even if they’re stronger. That’s because it’s not calculation relations, it’s looking at your history together and the history of others.  So it’ll look at what is in its best interests overall.

Smarter

The AI is quite a bit smarter.  The problem with these games is that it’s hard to have the AI be “smart” if the designer isn’t that good at the game.  I’ve gotten a lot better at the game thanks to those players who post YouTube videos of their strategies. I incorporate those into the AI (and use them myself).  For example, you very well may get creamed by the AI getting the Forge of the Overlord (spell of mastery victory) as a lot of players win that way and the AI focused too much on conquest.

Balance

We’re also doing a lot on the balance front.  One of my pet peeves is how many “empty” turns there are.  It’s a habit we brought over from GalCiv II that we’re curing (or starting to cure) with v1.3 of FE.  Things will definite “move” a bit faster.

For instance, the differences between Towns, Conclaves, and Fortresses has been significantly increased.  Towns provide a lot more gold. Conclaves a lot more research. And Fortresses a lot more production.  The AI has the advantage here because it’s able to calculate the right balance based on looking at other players (you can look at other players too but most human players don’t – but it’s fair game to the AI since we let you look at the other player stats).

World Generation

1.3 is the first version with procedural tile yield support.   That basically means that the map generator will look at a lot of other factors when deciding the tile yield of a given tile is.  The result is a lot more variance.

image

FUN!

Generally speaking, FE 1.3 is just a lot more fun.  That said, the best way to make the game more enjoyable is to get more units for each side.  The AI doesn’t design its own units. It uses what you create. The more units you give a faction, the smarter the AI gets.

Why?

So why are we putting so much effort (and hence $$$) into making Fallen Enchantress even better? Well first, it’s important that Legendary Heroes be distinct. Legendary Heroes is an expansion pack. It’s not supposed to make the game funner by “fixing” things in FE.  It’s about expanding on concepts already there and adding new ones. FE 1.3 is about taking an already fun game, taking feedback and what we’ve learned and polishing it. 

I’m pretty excited for 1.3 to get out. I don’t have a date yet. My guess is probably in 2 weeks.

Spell of Making: DEFEAT

image

Ultimately in my test game, Pariden won by casting the spell of making.  I’m requesting some tweaks so that there’s more warning when the various factions are constructing the towers leading up to it since this caught me by surprise and I only had 10 moves to do something about it.

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February 12, 2013 9:57:06 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

We plan to do more DLC.  Here's some of the DLC I woulld like to see made:

Spell Pack (bunch of magical spells)
Quest Pack (bunch of new quests and events)
Loot Pack (bunch of new loot and equipment)
They're a bit time consuming to do but I think a lot of people would appreciate what they do AND understand why they're DLC and not part of the base game (which is half the battle on DLC -- you dont' want people thinking that the developers just cheaped out).

Now this is DLC I can get behind. Looking forward to installing...

unless it requires LH; then I won't...

 

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February 12, 2013 10:38:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


 

I really don't like the concept of the AI ganging up on you. Was just playing GalvcivII the other day and that very thing happened. Took a lone transport and took over a minor race. Next turn the AI has a secret meeting and determines that you're over-agressive behaviour will no longer be tolerated and EVERY major race declared war on me. . Wasn't right OR fair cause just the turn before another major AI player did the same against a minor race. Why wasn't I invited to the secret meeting for wiping HIM out?!?

Because the concept behind building a great computer game is makeing it CHALLENGING vs the HUMAAN not vs the other AI's. So, I like this concept very well that the AI gangs up on the Humaan player. I relish in it and I surely hope they put that in THIS game. I will PRAISE Froggy to the highest mountains if he does.

What it does is make the player really THINK about what he is doing instead of just willy nilly attacking everything that moves because he can. You suffered the CONSEQUENCES of what you did without really THINKING the AI might go on an all out war against you. That is soooooooo like most human players who THINK they are STRATEGISTS. There's never been enough consequences or whatifs in most strategy games like this. This is why I like Froggy games and Froggy AI.

I do remember the AI in "Starcraft" (the first one), if it COULD freely choose alliances, all the AI players would always instantly team up right at the get-go to get the biggest chance of winning, I don't want that in Elemental

Oh I sure do as that's what makes these games fun and challenging for me. I'm so sick of wanting "balance" in a computer game when players know damn well the AI can't win a "balanced" game against thatm. When you have AI attacking other AI that's just plain stupid as it just whittles down your opponents into one strong AI that you'll destroy anyways but if you have 4 AI opponents coming at you from 4 different directions with huge stacks ala Total War lately then you'll have a much better challenging game and a lot more fun that is if you like challenge and not some romper room candyland easy to beat ai.

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February 12, 2013 11:25:44 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting willie sanderson,


Oh I sure do as that's what makes these games fun and challenging for me. I'm so sick of wanting "balance" in a computer game when players know damn well the AI can't win a "balanced" game against thatm. When you have AI attacking other AI that's just plain stupid as it just whittles down your opponents into one strong AI that you'll destroy anyways but if you have 4 AI opponents coming at you from 4 different directions with huge stacks ala Total War lately then you'll have a much better challenging game and a lot more fun that is if you like challenge and not some romper room candyland easy to beat ai.

It seems to me that all you want out of a game is one that  is just pure head to head tactical combat. Not much depth in that. Just rush to build up an army and attack. rinse. repeat.

Might as well petition the Empre Total War developers to build a fantasy edition.

I think SD wants FE to be more than that.

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February 12, 2013 12:01:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting willie sanderson,


I really don't like the concept of the AI ganging up on you. Was just playing GalvcivII the other day and that very thing happened. Took a lone transport and took over a minor race. Next turn the AI has a secret meeting and determines that you're over-agressive behaviour will no longer be tolerated and EVERY major race declared war on me. . Wasn't right OR fair cause just the turn before another major AI player did the same against a minor race. Why wasn't I invited to the secret meeting for wiping HIM out?!?



Because the concept behind building a great computer game is makeing it CHALLENGING vs the HUMAAN not vs the other AI's. So, I like this concept very well that the AI gangs up on the Humaan player. I relish in it and I surely hope they put that in THIS game. I will PRAISE Froggy to the highest mountains if he does.

What it does is make the player really THINK about what he is doing instead of just willy nilly attacking everything that moves because he can. You suffered the CONSEQUENCES of what you did without really THINKING the AI might go on an all out war against you. That is soooooooo like most human players who THINK they are STRATEGISTS. There's never been enough consequences or whatifs in most strategy games like this. This is why I like Froggy games and Froggy AI.

Wow. Just wow. Someone's got his head buried nice and deep. Where in my entire paragraph did I say I was a strategist? Where in my entire paragraph did I say that I don't care to consider my actions. Grow up.

I'm a realist when it comes to playing TBS style games and I enjoy emersing myself into the position of the nation that I am playing. The timing of that random event was completely unrealistic.

First off, I was less than 200 turns into that game (I rushed planetary assault). Second off, the minor race homeworld was parked right next to my home star system. Third off, I checked the diplomacy of each nation before attacking said minor race. Fourth off, half of the races never even met this minor race yet. Fifth off, it was my first attack of the game, so I had shown ZERO aggressive behaviour before hand.

So get your head out of the sand and have a decent conversion or don't post at all.

 

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February 12, 2013 12:05:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting willie sanderson,


Oh I sure do as that's what makes these games fun and challenging for me. I'm so sick of wanting "balance" in a computer game when players know damn well the AI can't win a "balanced" game against thatm. When you have AI attacking other AI that's just plain stupid as it just whittles down your opponents into one strong AI that you'll destroy anyways but if you have 4 AI opponents coming at you from 4 different directions with huge stacks ala Total War lately then you'll have a much better challenging game and a lot more fun that is if you like challenge and not some romper room candyland easy to beat ai.

When the AI cannot win in a balanced computer game, the fault is not with the balance. The fault is with the AI. Understandably, AI is difficult to program and thus exceptions are introduced to the game to help make the game challenging. However, it's not the root of the problem and should not be treated as such.

AI attacking AI is expected and necessary, obviously depending on the circumstances of the game. Without it, you might as well just play 1vs1.

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February 12, 2013 12:16:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Awesome, looking forward to it.    I think I'll be dusting off FE again when 1.3 comes out, then again when LH comes out.

I put down borderlands 2 and re-picked up Warlock and their newish DLC.  Great, fun game - but biggest disappointment is that the games don't matter after awhile.  You've won, and there's not even a scoreboard at the end.   So I just start a new game to play to a point of dominance again. 

 

 

I'd like FE to have a game snapshot like "sins" did, at least to some level.  

I'd like to see some cheap, low level DLC - $3-$4 bucks - i.e. a new faction - throw some story behind it, add a few changes to existing skins, new color palette, and then some configuration - either existing skills/traits but in an interesting combination or add 1 new mechanic to the game specific to that faction.   Hopefully its all modular and you're just making configuration changes rather than brand new concepts and its just a matter of polish.

 

 

 

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February 12, 2013 1:04:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
We plan to do more DLC. Here's some of the DLC I woulld like to see made:

Spell Pack (bunch of magical spells)
Quest Pack (bunch of new quests and events)
Loot Pack (bunch of new loot and equipment)

They're a bit time consuming to do but I think a lot of people would appreciate what they do AND understand why they're DLC and not part of the base game (which is half the battle on DLC -- you dont' want people thinking that the developers just cheaped out).

As a modder I would never buy those unless they were super high quality or at least contained new art assets. The Spell pack in particular seems like something that should be part of the main game. Although a Quest Pack with some new interesting quests and rewards could work well. In particular if it had a new monster model or some new spells and items. Having the new spells and items be quest rewards would make them feel more like bonuses instead of being a part of the main game you have to pay for.

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February 12, 2013 1:09:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

New factions are something that should be in the base game, and we really should get 4 in LH (Umber, Capitar, and 2 new ones)

 

8 is just flat-out insufficient.

 

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February 12, 2013 1:20:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Why are people so ridiculously demanding?

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February 12, 2013 1:22:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DsRaider,

Quoting Frogboy, reply 45We plan to do more DLC. Here's some of the DLC I woulld like to see made:

Spell Pack (bunch of magical spells)
Quest Pack (bunch of new quests and events)
Loot Pack (bunch of new loot and equipment)

They're a bit time consuming to do but I think a lot of people would appreciate what they do AND understand why they're DLC and not part of the base game (which is half the battle on DLC -- you dont' want people thinking that the developers just cheaped out).

As a modder I would never buy those unless they were super high quality or at least contained new art assets. The Spell pack in particular seems like something that should be part of the main game. Although a Quest Pack with some new interesting quests and rewards could work well. In particular if it had a new monster model or some new spells and items. As quest rewards the new items and spells would feel more like bonuses instead of being a part of the main game you have to pay for.

Agreed, DLC should contain things hard to mod into the game, either extreme quality (extreme as in... well something I would only expect HF to mod in... )
OR (well it could be AND if you are awesome ) new art, something supremely difficult to put into the game.
I must say I am... Not entirely agreeing with both the current quests, or the current spells, I would have made it different somewhat, but its not bad... just not how I would have implemented it, so getting more of the same would be moot at best.
one DLC I would really like to see was an "Upgraded modding tools" dlc, where it becomes easy and smooth to change the game, especially the XML because notepad is a difficult program to do it with at best (stuff like coloured text really helps, but I cannot change the text when I open the XML in my browser).

Anyways, I hope you guys make some amazing items, and I am sure it will ATLEAST be considered "Moderately nice", and if nothing else filled with good idea!

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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February 12, 2013 1:33:30 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Well, I'm not a modder, and I don't play one on TV, but I would buy a spell DLC in a heartbeat if there were a good variety of spells.

SD, whatever you do, don't follow Kalypso Media's (Tropico 4) example and release a DLC containing a single building, a single scenario, and one new set of sovereign cloths and charge $5.

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February 12, 2013 1:57:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Borg999,
Well, I'm not a modder, and I don't play one on TV, but I would buy a spell DLC in a heartbeat if there were a good variety of spells.

SD, whatever you do, don't follow Kalipso Media's example and release a DLC containing a single building, a single scenario, and one new set of sovereign cloths and charge $5.


This one except the heartbeat, us poor folks have to think about where we put our money

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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February 12, 2013 2:00:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Quoting zlefin, reply 34

Your interest in AI development is commendable. I think you would be better served putting that interest to use in your own game so that you can see what works and what doesn't when it comes into contact with human beings.

 

You rock!  Wish I knew you in person.  LOL  good stuff!

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February 12, 2013 5:25:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Borg999,



Quoting willie sanderson,
reply 52
Oh I sure do as that's what makes these games fun and challenging for me. I'm so sick of wanting "balance" in a computer game when players know damn well the AI can't win a "balanced" game against thatm. When you have AI attacking other AI that's just plain stupid as it just whittles down your opponents into one strong AI that you'll destroy anyways but if you have 4 AI opponents coming at you from 4 different directions with huge stacks ala Total War lately then you'll have a much better challenging game and a lot more fun that is if you like challenge and not some romper room candyland easy to beat ai.


It seems to me that all you want out of a game is one that  is just pure head to head tactical combat. Not much depth in that. Just rush to build up an army and attack. rinse. repeat.

Might as well petition the Empre Total War developers to build a fantasy edition.

I think SD wants FE to be more than that.

If it was multiplayer I might agree, but, it's NOT its a SINGLE SOLO PLAYER game thus it should be challenging to the utmost for the SINGLE SOLO PLAYER and the AI should gangup on the humaan and try to stomp him/her into Oblivion (not the game just the atmosphere).

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February 12, 2013 5:28:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GFireflyE,



Quoting willie sanderson,
reply 52
I really don't like the concept of the AI ganging up on you. Was just playing GalvcivII the other day and that very thing happened. Took a lone transport and took over a minor race. Next turn the AI has a secret meeting and determines that you're over-agressive behaviour will no longer be tolerated and EVERY major race declared war on me. . Wasn't right OR fair cause just the turn before another major AI player did the same against a minor race. Why wasn't I invited to the secret meeting for wiping HIM out?!?


Because the concept behind building a great computer game is makeing it CHALLENGING vs the HUMAAN not vs the other AI's. So, I like this concept very well that the AI gangs up on the Humaan player. I relish in it and I surely hope they put that in THIS game. I will PRAISE Froggy to the highest mountains if he does.What it does is make the player really THINK about what he is doing instead of just willy nilly attacking everything that moves because he can. You suffered the CONSEQUENCES of what you did without really THINKING the AI might go on an all out war against you. That is soooooooo like most human players who THINK they are STRATEGISTS. There's never been enough consequences or whatifs in most strategy games like this. This is why I like Froggy games and Froggy AI.



Wow. Just wow. Someone's got his head buried nice and deep. Where in my entire paragraph did I say I was a strategist? Where in my entire paragraph did I say that I don't care to consider my actions. Grow up.

I'm a realist when it comes to playing TBS style games and I enjoy emersing myself into the position of the nation that I am playing. The timing of that random event was completely unrealistic.

First off, I was less than 200 turns into that game (I rushed planetary assault). Second off, the minor race homeworld was parked right next to my home star system. Third off, I checked the diplomacy of each nation before attacking said minor race. Fourth off, half of the races never even met this minor race yet. Fifth off, it was my first attack of the game, so I had shown ZERO aggressive behaviour before hand.

So get your head out of the sand and have a decent conversion or don't post at all.

 

That's what you SAY happened that doesn't mean that is WHAT happened. Too many times online people will EXXAGERATE what happened just to enforce their own AGENDA's. Show me PROOF that is what happened and I'll believe you. I think it's exactly as I said it is, you didn't THINK about the CONSEQUENCES and you got PULVERIZED for it. hahahahaha

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February 12, 2013 6:05:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
Quoting zlefin, reply 34
good things to hear sounds like good progress.

On AI; my offer to help write improved ai still stands; and the biggest way to easily make significant improvements in the ai is through genetic algorithms and data mining of the games played by all the players; that allows for much better races and units quite readily.

I appreciate the offer to help.

But unless you have ever actually written a computer game AI in a shipping game I don't think you (or anyone in a similar place) is in a position to understand what it takes to write good game AI.

I've been familiar with expert systems, neural nets, and genetic algorithms for over two decades now.  I might be wrong but I'm not familiar with anyone who has been writing computer game AI as long as I have (maybe someone reading this could check).  The OS/2 version of Galactic Civilizations used to save bits of data to disk that when the player played future games the AI could gather what type of player he or she was. I even tried to implement a primitive expert system (took it out for performance reasons).

The Windows version of Galactic Civilizations I would record build order, tech tree research order, etc. that could then be used by the AI to improve on its research.  Galactic Civilizations II added the ability to run, in a thread, simulated turns (substituting computer AI for the human) to get a guess on what is likely to happen an then "react" to that future even in the present.

And while those things are useful, they are extremely time consuming to write and you can do all that only to discover that none of it matters if the player has figured out they can simply win the game by buying 20 salted porks for their mounted units and kite to victory.  Or aim straight to archers, build a large force of them (to get the larger maps) and just massacre every army they play. Or combine spamming henchmen with buying quests and build an uber army.

Game design is always a much bigger effect on how effective computer players are than any sort of theory craft on AI development.  It's all about bang for the buck.  

Your interest in AI development is commendable. I think you would be better served putting that interest to use in your own game so that you can see what works and what doesn't when it comes into contact with human beings.

 

 

Two decades of knowledge is great; it doesnt' mean you're so smart and knowledgeable noone can help improve it.  And it doesnt' an educated computer scientist can't have a good understanding of ai.  Especially when it's demonstrable that most commercial game ai's can be improved with relatively modest amounts of effort (though i don't know how long it would take for FE).

I know it's quite complicated; but that doesn't mean one can't make improvements through others.  Just because certain builds are ridiculously powerful doesn't mean the ai can't be better at fighting those who aren't using the most brutal builds available.

And I well know and understand how game design affects the viability of computer players; and how some of the changes in the civ games have ahd significant effects on how well computer players can do.  I've been studying STRATEGY for over 20 years, and i know a darn lot about it.

If I had a game of my own to work on I would, but I don't; I have ideas for games, as many people do, but that's far from having a game to work on for ai purposes, there's a lot of other things in the game that's needed before it gets to the point where you can focus on ai.  This leads to one of the obnoxious catch-22's;  you dont' have experience so you can't get a job, you don't have a job so you can't get experience. 

Neural nets do take too long to do the learning, that's why they wouldn't be great for this; but genetic algorithms are very viable if you do them right, nobody in the business does.  At this point I have to think you're just being defensive rather than effective, sorry to say, but it's true.  I've mentioned ways that can improve the ai, and are not hard to program, and you refuse them, if they are unclear I can clarify, but they are there.  The main thing in the industry that people don't do is COMBINE the results of all the millions of games played frmo all the players into the ai.  A learning ai that only learns from each player will of course take up too much processing time and not improve much; but systems which focus on simple hill-climbing algorithms utiliizing the millions of games played to find higher spots on the hill can readily make some improvement.  You already have systems wherein the ai reuses races/units to get better at facing you.  The simple solution to better ai unit building is to have the ai not just reuse the units you built against it, but to take trends and commonalites and best units from ALL players who play the game and connect to the internet, and combine them; it won't have perfect accuracy, but it's a huge amount of data, and as with most things, there are diminishing returns; so the returns on the first basic processing of that huge amoutn of data are quite high.

I also know about separability, and the degree to which some parts of the game are separable from others.  Even if separability isn't perfect, it's often easy to find subsystems in a game which can be improved without the complexities of looking at the entire game.  For example the unit designs in FE; while they somewhat depend on what you're facing, you could make some improvements quite feasibly even without such.

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February 12, 2013 7:03:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting willie sanderson,



Quoting GFireflyE,
reply 55



Quoting willie sanderson,
reply 52
I really don't like the concept of the AI ganging up on you. Was just playing GalvcivII the other day and that very thing happened. Took a lone transport and took over a minor race. Next turn the AI has a secret meeting and determines that you're over-agressive behaviour will no longer be tolerated and EVERY major race declared war on me. . Wasn't right OR fair cause just the turn before another major AI player did the same against a minor race. Why wasn't I invited to the secret meeting for wiping HIM out?!?


Because the concept behind building a great computer game is makeing it CHALLENGING vs the HUMAAN not vs the other AI's. So, I like this concept very well that the AI gangs up on the Humaan player. I relish in it and I surely hope they put that in THIS game. I will PRAISE Froggy to the highest mountains if he does.What it does is make the player really THINK about what he is doing instead of just willy nilly attacking everything that moves because he can. You suffered the CONSEQUENCES of what you did without really THINKING the AI might go on an all out war against you. That is soooooooo like most human players who THINK they are STRATEGISTS. There's never been enough consequences or whatifs in most strategy games like this. This is why I like Froggy games and Froggy AI.



Wow. Just wow. Someone's got his head buried nice and deep. Where in my entire paragraph did I say I was a strategist? Where in my entire paragraph did I say that I don't care to consider my actions. Grow up.

I'm a realist when it comes to playing TBS style games and I enjoy emersing myself into the position of the nation that I am playing. The timing of that random event was completely unrealistic.

First off, I was less than 200 turns into that game (I rushed planetary assault). Second off, the minor race homeworld was parked right next to my home star system. Third off, I checked the diplomacy of each nation before attacking said minor race. Fourth off, half of the races never even met this minor race yet. Fifth off, it was my first attack of the game, so I had shown ZERO aggressive behaviour before hand.

So get your head out of the sand and have a decent conversion or don't post at all.

 



That's what you SAY happened that doesn't mean that is WHAT happened. Too many times online people will EXXAGERATE what happened just to enforce their own AGENDA's. Show me PROOF that is what happened and I'll believe you. I think it's exactly as I said it is, you didn't THINK about the CONSEQUENCES and you got PULVERIZED for it. hahahahaha

Yes, that's what I say happened cause that's what actually DID happen. There is no reason to make something like that up. I really don't care whether or not you believe me and you may think (or not think) whatever you wish.

Glad you have made you're inerrant and thoughtless comments public on this forum, as now everyone else who posts and reads here will no not to take you seriously.

You're head is still ankle deep in sand and you've got some growing up to do.

Good day.

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February 12, 2013 7:38:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GFireflyE,
I really don't like the concept of the AI ganging up on you. Was just playing GalvcivII the other day and that very thing happened. Took a lone transport and took over a minor race. Next turn the AI has a secret meeting and determines that you're over-agressive behaviour will no longer be tolerated and EVERY major race declared war on me. . Wasn't right OR fair cause just the turn before another major AI player did the same against a minor race. Why wasn't I invited to the secret meeting for wiping HIM out?!?

Because the concept behind building a great computer game is makeing it CHALLENGING vs the HUMAAN not vs the other AI's. So, I like this concept very well that the AI gangs up on the Humaan player. I relish in it and I surely hope they put that in THIS game. I will PRAISE Froggy to the highest mountains if he does.

Why don't we just have a slider for "Aggressive AI" so that we can adjust it and get what we want. Mind you i know i make it sound simple while i have no idea how much work or how difficult that would be under the hood for the AI

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February 12, 2013 8:28:36 PM from Little Tiny Frogs Forums Little Tiny Frogs Forums

If I had a game of my own to work on I would, but I don't; I have ideas for games, as many people do, but that's far from having a game to work on for ai purposes, there's a lot of other things in the game that's needed before it gets to the point where you can focus on ai.  This leads to one of the obnoxious catch-22's;  you dont' have experience so you can't get a job, you don't have a job so you can't get experience.

I picked up Teach Yourself C in 21 days and wrote my own game.  That's how I got started.

I have no doubt you could provide pseudocode that would help the AI.  No doubt at all.  And I appreciate that!  The problem is that on *commercial* games half the battle is figuring out what is the best use of finite time.

 

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February 12, 2013 8:53:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Chehalden,



Quoting GFireflyE,
reply 51
I really don't like the concept of the AI ganging up on you. Was just playing GalvcivII the other day and that very thing happened. Took a lone transport and took over a minor race. Next turn the AI has a secret meeting and determines that you're over-agressive behaviour will no longer be tolerated and EVERY major race declared war on me. . Wasn't right OR fair cause just the turn before another major AI player did the same against a minor race. Why wasn't I invited to the secret meeting for wiping HIM out?!?Because the concept behind building a great computer game is makeing it CHALLENGING vs the HUMAAN not vs the other AI's. So, I like this concept very well that the AI gangs up on the Humaan player. I relish in it and I surely hope they put that in THIS game. I will PRAISE Froggy to the highest mountains if he does.


Why don't we just have a slider for "Aggressive AI" so that we can adjust it and get what we want. Mind you i know i make it sound simple while i have no idea how much work or how difficult that would be under the hood for the AI

Actually I just found something I didn't know we had. When setting up the game you can put the AI into TEAMS with each other. So, I can actually set all the AI to expert or higher and put them all on the same team. I don't know how I missed that but that's an EXCELLENT OPTION within the setup of the game. Thanks Froggy.

So now all of you PASSIVE players can play it romper room style and I can have my WAR/STRATEGY game vs the AI vs ME. That made things 100% better.

Is this kind of OPTION in Galactic Civilization II too?

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February 12, 2013 9:00:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Chehalden,



Quoting GFireflyE,
reply 51
I really don't like the concept of the AI ganging up on you. Was just playing GalvcivII the other day and that very thing happened. Took a lone transport and took over a minor race. Next turn the AI has a secret meeting and determines that you're over-agressive behaviour will no longer be tolerated and EVERY major race declared war on me. . Wasn't right OR fair cause just the turn before another major AI player did the same against a minor race. Why wasn't I invited to the secret meeting for wiping HIM out?!?Because the concept behind building a great computer game is makeing it CHALLENGING vs the HUMAAN not vs the other AI's. So, I like this concept very well that the AI gangs up on the Humaan player. I relish in it and I surely hope they put that in THIS game. I will PRAISE Froggy to the highest mountains if he does.


Why don't we just have a slider for "Aggressive AI" so that we can adjust it and get what we want. Mind you i know i make it sound simple while i have no idea how much work or how difficult that would be under the hood for the AI

That IS something the CIVILIZATION game did in IV and if I'm not mistaken it was in II as well. I'm all for adding OPTIONS that make the game more challenging. I'm not AFRAID of Numbers or the AI Ganging up on me because I relish games like that. Civ II & IV are the best in the series because you can set the AI to always hate the humaan player and basically always AT WAR. Raiding Barbarians always gave me a run for my money in the early games. Having other civilizations sneak up on my capital when I only had 1 unit in them was another. That was fantastic fun because it "taught" me how to play strategically instead of just willy nilly romper room style run amuck all over the map without thought or wonder.

I really have no doubt Frogboy is going to make this game as "challenging" as he can and wimpy players beware and be prepared to play on candyland easy difficulty if you can't handle it. Ganging up has been a strategy of humaan players for centuries and so it should be in games today.

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February 12, 2013 9:29:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

For instance, AI players will be more inclined to offer peace even if they’re stronger. That’s because it’s not calculation relations, it’s looking at your history together and the history of others.  So it’ll look at what is in its best interests overall.

This is the best news I've heard in some time.  I've been a bit put off by the game because of how ridiculously aggressive the AI can be.  It's like you'd encounter a faction for the first time, and they'd say, "Hi!  Nice to meet you!  Prepare to die!"  So an AI that won't attack as soon as there is the slightest imbalance in the AI's favor is a very welcome change (and I'm hoping these changes are being ported forward into the expansion pack).

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February 13, 2013 3:45:29 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes, please ensure that the tribute system works properly. i.e. when a weaker AI offers tribute to *you* it does indeed end up giving *you* 10% of its income per (whatever it is) rather than taking it from you - and clear up the text and tooltip in the offer/demand tribute screens to ensure it is absolutely clear what the case is (say who will pay who what and make sure that is then what actually happens). It can be quite annoying to have a dominated AI offer tribute and explain they are even willing to pay x up front, to accept their offer, and then find subsequently I am paying *them* regular amounts of my income when all signs were that the offer was for the reverse to happen.

 

Great work on the diplomacy and other stuff for 1.3, looking forward to it.

 

PS. Agree with what another poster said earlier about it being worth considering the incorporation of some or all of the Stormworld mod into FE - really does mesh and expand nicely, the creator has done some sterling work.

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February 13, 2013 11:46:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't mind AI ganging up on me if it makes sense.  It's when it doesn't make sense that I have a problem with it.

 

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February 13, 2013 4:09:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Agreed.  The AI shouldn't be coordinating with the sole purpose of defeating the player.

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