Save scumming & instant raze

By on January 12, 2013 5:31:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Nibelung44

Join Date 04/2011
+1

I feel there is a discrepancy in the design philosophy of the team here (obviously, all is in my opinion).

On the one hand, the design notes explained to us that heroes injuries have been added because it was deemed a fair price most players would accept to pay, when an hero is defeated.  i.e the aim was to prevent save scumming, the act of reloading your turn in face of a too harsh event.

But on the other hand, we have monsters and AI factions able to instant-raze cities they take, from village to metropolis.

Personally, I just can't resolve myself to lose a level 4 city in such manner. If there was a delay (AI faction) or if only some buildings were burned (AI monsters), then that would be fair and on par with the rest of the design philosophy.

 

 

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January 12, 2013 6:07:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I quick-save before every significant battle and will reload without question if a champ gets injured. So... ya. I don't see why they'd think I'd accept an annoying to remove debuff when it takes 5 seconds to avoid.

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January 12, 2013 6:17:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Preventing "Save Scumming" is the worst idea ever, if people IS saving/reloading, it is because they feel a desire to get through the game in a perfect manner. It does not matter what penalty you put upon the player except almost no penalty at all.
It is a silly concept of people calling it that, when it is just people re-trying situations to get the best possible outcome, and if people want to do that, if people like to play that way, so be it, it can hardly affect your end.

I think the heroes wound system is added so you don't "lose" your game because of one unlucky battle, you don't have to be strict when playing with your heroes and you can take some chances without losing it all.
On the contrary we have cities, easier to defend than heroes, although immobile and prone to being smashed from the random wandering dragon, but still there HAVE to be penalties to not defending your kingdom/heroes.

The instant-razing from AI factions is stupid if you ask me, because I think the AI should go through the same rules as the player, until I crank the difficulty up with my "how much the AI cheats - Slider", and its plain annoying.

I do think lesser monsters like a pair of mites shouldn't waste an entire undefended town because I as a player is a total blimpface and forget to defend against it (ok mites is a tad overkill, usually city militia munches upon those, but you get the idea), but I figured it was done like this so they could introduce other features instead of considering how weak or powerful monsters should be when razing a city.
After all, IF a dragon decides to munch upon my city, I would be rather oblivious to it if it just smashed over a building and then left using the city transport system.

As a final line, I rarely use my load button, I don't mind a silly wound to a champion although I might think the champion rubbish after certain wounds (some of them are really annoying compared to some of the others).

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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January 12, 2013 8:33:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The thing about reloading is that if you reload enough (which is usually the first or second reload) then you will get a result that completely avoids the encounter that the game was originally throwing your way. For example, a faction that was far stronger than mine really wanted to declare war and wipe me off the face of the planet. I avoided this by simply reloading the game. It seems whatever hostility that possessed them to attack me simply vanished after I reloaded, allowing me to successfully avoid the confrontation altogether.

It is possible to do the exact same thing with monsters invading your territory. One moment they are hellbent on taking your city over, the next (reload) they really couldn't care less and walk away. Reloading to try and change the outcome of a battle is one thing, but I think this avoidance of confrontations entirely really isn't in the spirit of the game.

So, instead of them instantly blowing the city up when they conquer it, how about they occupy it and force the player to come and besiege his/her own city to get it back? While they own the city you don't get any of its benefits, and perhaps as time goes on the population of said city dwindles, indicating that the monsters are running around eating people up. Optionally you could make it so that you have to 'Rebuild' the city after retaking it, which will take even more turns to complete (or maybe even gold). I feel these ideas would create a strong penalty for losing a city, but not so strong that you'd absolutely feel the need to reload the game.

Although I'm speaking strictly of neutral enemy mobs here, not enemy factions. I actually don't know what the enemy factions do when they take over a city (new to the game). Do they raze it, or hold it as their own?

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January 13, 2013 12:51:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

never heard of "save scumming".  From what the others have said, it sounds to me like the game is working just fine.  If you want to load you can.  If you dont, you dont.

I think thats in-line with the design philosophy.

that and I got the beta and learned about game development and the business.  Im a little bit partial to criticism of these guys.

 

(crap...  or would it be impartial?  Thats a tough one)

 

anyway, they did a fine job.

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January 13, 2013 7:36:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting mfrast,
If you want to load you can.  If you dont, you dont.

Yes, but what we're talking about is the compulsion to load. Specifically when a city is razed, which seems like too harsh of a punishment for failing to thwart attackers from said city. Changing the punishment to something less permanent would lower the desire to reload and make it easier for people like me (who have said compulsion) to play the game ironman style.

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January 13, 2013 8:34:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kongdej,
I think the heroes wound system is added so you don't "lose" your game because of one unlucky battle, you don't have to be strict when playing with your heroes and you can take some chances without losing it all.

Actually, the immortality of champions and injuries were introduced because the AI would be at a distinct disadvantage if they died permanently.

Savescummers generally tend to reload no matter how minor the inconvenience to their perceived gaming experience.

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January 13, 2013 10:55:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Starting to get a tad annoying. Save scumming is when you circumvent normal save/load rules to gain an advantage in a normally competitive or skill-based game. The term originated in games like Rogue and Nethack and referred to the avoidance of perma-death by backing up your savefile and restoring it after you die (it's normally deleted by the game). It's a form of cheating, which is why it's obviously derogatory. Using the normal save and reload system provided by a game is not "save scumming."

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January 14, 2013 2:55:33 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

VagabondMage summarized perfectly my thoughts. Sorry to have offended people who reload constantly though

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January 14, 2013 3:17:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree totally with OP and have in the past made a very similar post myself. At least it is much improved over how it used to be (you used to be unable to settle the entire countryside around the city again if it was destroyed!) but it is still a fairly excessive penalty.

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January 14, 2013 7:51:48 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Nibelung44,
VagabondMage summarized perfectly my thoughts. Sorry to have offended people who reload constantly though

I don't think you offend them by stating facts, I just am starting to dislike the term "Save Scumming". It is "supposedly" part of the game. What I wish to see is the AI make some long-term decisions and sticking with them (which would keep in a savegame), so if they would declare war on your face now, and you reload, they would still declare war... (yes, on your face, thats were war is declared... )

I think the OP have a good point, what I want to see is a compromise, I would love to see monsters using 5 (or whatever) amount of turns to pillage the city slowly, and if you ignore it your city will be gone for good. Instant raze was never really fun.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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January 14, 2013 11:05:02 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Hi,

My name is borg999, and I am a save scummer. 

It all started with Civ2 when a barbarian attacked my settler....

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January 14, 2013 11:40:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Borg999,
Hi,

My name is borg999, and I am a save scummer. 

It all started with Civ2 when a barbarian attacked my settler....

~ K

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