Fallen Enchantress 1.20 Changelog

By on January 10, 2013 5:27:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Derek Paxton

Join Date 03/2003
+173

*** Released 1/22/2013 ***

 

Balance

Reduced Wealthy from +800 Gildar to +500 Gildar

Ancient Temples are more common and they give +1 Research per turn instead of +1 Mana

Pastures gives +3% hit points to all your units instead of increasing the grains of the attached city

Increased the default players on small, medium and large maps slightly

Increased the labor costs of bows and ranged staves

Fruit Groves, Twilight Bees, Wild Game and Whild Grain are now more common

Increased the amount of resources spawned

Monsters still raze city but it no longer salts the land

Twilight Honey now provides a faction wide -2% to unrest

Gold deposits are more common but produce less gildar

Grain provies 25 food instead of 20 by default

Modified rarity of different world resources and their availability to have more variety

Goodie huts are slightly more common

Shards are slightly rarer

Default turn limit reduced to 800 (from 1000)

Blizzard can be cast in an area will hit your units (and it will damage them)

Pioneers cost 30 population when trained

 

Fixes

Fixed a bug where the hit point bar wouldn't update when the crushing blow ability was used

Fixed bug where AI units would sometimes get stuck (like watching while their city was taken over or not going out to get goodie huts or going after an easy kill unit)

Fixed bug where AI knowledge trading didn't always reduce tradeable knowledge

Fixed an issue keeping the Growth potion from increasing blunt damage

Fixed an issue where the Paragon spell could be cast indefinitly

Fixed an issue where units will now exit cities in the best way to reach their specified destination

Fixed crashes

 

AI

AI more intelligent about when and what it builds in its cities

AI evaluates whether it should be training archers/catapults/mounted units more effectively

Fixed but that caused AI to disproportionately choose the first level up perk (like Assassin)

AI more aggressive about getting to goodie huts

 

UI

Fixed glitch that caused the arrow cursor to show instead of the hour glass when the player dragged the map between turns

Reduced ground cover on terrain with the exception of deserts

Added an icon to all the Refined techs to indicate that they can be researched multiple times

Fixed lots of typos

Resource tooltip no longer lists the tech requirement if the player already has the tech

Removed references to techs unlocking quests in the tech descriptions

Locked Post 82 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 16, 2013 2:31:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Derek Paxton,

Quoting Polistes, reply 6
Yeah population as a resource is a good idea, do you want a large military early on? Well that should cost population, and while those people are conscripted they don't pay taxes....

We actually had this in at one point (I think i have a dev journal up about it).  I love the concept of it and it.  But it didn't playtest well.  It made the pace really hard to manage as players unintentionally stripped away their population base.  I couldn't find a good balance between making population matter enough that you really care when you were building military units and keeping it from taking the production of the rails when players built more or less units than was expected.

I'm not saying it wouldnt be possible to find a good balance on it, and it would be a lot easier in the current economic system (in that system population fed directly into prod and research instead of indirectly through city levels).  In fact in the current system I suspect it would error on the other side and players wouldnt care enough that their population was going away.

Anyway, I'm not disagreeing with your idea, in fact I loved it enough to write a system around it.  Just that it has its own hurdles and challenges.

I can't help but think the balance would not make population drain a huge amount, but slow down growth (a little bit, mostly when I hit 20 ish prestige or something like that), and make more city levels while increasing max-food... This would help make population a more important aspect of every-day FE.
Meaby also give fortresses and "extra" something to munch upon, like training grounds reduce population costs of trained squads by 1.

Reduced Wealthy from +800 Gildar to +500 Gildar

Is this really such a big deal anymore, I am starting to think the dev's just plain hate wealthy... Meaby just remove it entirely and find some new concept?
Personally, I would make it part of the faction trait that granted the Civics Technology. (giving less gildar of course, like 300-400 BONUS starting gildar.)

PS. I know some of my posts come off as an angry teenager raging around, please take this as "constructive"-criticism (as constructive a cave-idiot can give ) and take it with a smile

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 18, 2013 1:45:06 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The whole stressing out about Pioneer population costs in regards to Outposts is easy; if a Pioneer founds an outpost the population is returned to the city linked to the outpost.  Or - just return half the population as the remaining half is assumed to be tied to the outpost for maintenance, upgrades, and such..

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 18, 2013 3:13:13 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Nope. Then you can abuse that and transfer population to another city.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 18, 2013 3:32:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

There are going to be a lot less outposts with the -30 population cost.  Here are some possible changes that I was thinking about regarding them:

 

should their starting area of effect be larger? and should the high tower addon add 2 range? more range would make some of the other addons better.  i suspect not many people use some of them

is consulate fine the way it is?  should it be earlier in the tech tree or cost less to build? since an outpost is costing 30 population, to add 1 to growth but wind up with positive gain it will take a long time to take effect, and it already is a bit late in the tree and has a high cost to create.  many cities yields that have a high base grain to accommodate growth have a low material yield.  i do think that consulates can't be buffed too much or they would make the town growth lines obsolete, but something just doesn't seem right.

does warden work properly, and are monsters aggressive enough to outposts and improvements in general? i saw some posts in another thread wondering about both

when outposts merge with city limits, is their effect is lost on those tiles? i saw another post mentioning this

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 18, 2013 7:05:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting BernieTime,
The whole stressing out about Pioneer population costs in regards to Outposts is easy; if a Pioneer founds an outpost the population is returned to the city linked to the outpost.  Or - just return half the population as the remaining half is assumed to be tied to the outpost for maintenance, upgrades, and such..

THIS is a very interesting idea.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 18, 2013 7:51:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I would be interested in trying out Pioneers that cost population to build, but that are not consumed by building an outpost, but are immobilized for 10 turns.  No complicated mechanic of refunding population.   No necessity to create a new unit type for the AI to have to learn how to use.  The pioneer would allow you to slowly expand your territory in a contiguous manner and eventually found a city, or rush out without the delay of building outposts to grab habitable spots.  Perhaps add a penalty to prestige for each pioneer to represent the growth resources used to support the pioneer in the field and discourage standing armies of pioneers.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 19, 2013 3:49:26 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like the idea of Pioneers costing population, but in addition to the outpost problem you should also look at the prestige mechanic imo.

You have very limited access to prestige in the early game (and late game too by the way), so Sovs with

a) Heroics

and

Life Magic (Souvereign's Call)

will have vast advantages (Heroics is very strong already...). To be able to expand much faster just by having Life 1 would be a serious advantage of Kingdoms over Empires. You would have to either compensate or nerf Sovs Call imo.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 20, 2013 4:37:12 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's good to see that the tech trading bug with the AIs is being looking into. This is the entire reason why I started posting on this board... Last few days of FE were essentially me bashing my head against the CPU in the worst kind of feverish race. Now I might actually have time to do quests and RP a little...

I agree that the fundamental issue with the Pioneer nerf is that outposts == settlements when it comes to cost.

If Pioneer costs is associated with population it seems it would just mean that Kingdom could expand more quickly than Empire as Rincewind-42 mentioned. (Something only Relias lacks... Poor Altar)

A gildar cost to Pioneers will make wind magic far more appealing: I frequently have taxes at 0% till very late in the game.

Arcane Monoliths are also a very appealing way to bypass the pioneer cost of outposts. The primary reason why my custom faction has decalon trait is precisely that it allows me to city spam more efficiently. As it is now settlement spamming is way too potent. It pays off both short term and long-term due to city enchantments and the immediate power rating boost.

In all cases Pariden likes the Pioneer nerfs. I was pretty surprised when I read in other topics that Pariden was seen as one of the weaker factions.

UI changes that notify when a unit is out of moves and when a settlement is targeted by hostile spells would be pretty nice as well. We should know when an enemy attacks us with hostile magic.

Thanks for the update.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 21, 2013 6:08:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sovereign's Call isn't going to be any more of an advantage than Enchanted Hammers or Propaganda. Unfortunately this change wont have much an impact, since at only 30 population cost an early city is likely the regain that population by the time it finishes building a Pioneer. Pretty easy to get 5-6 growth early on (first ~30 turns), and at that point it still takes ~6-7 turns to build a Pioneer, so unless they went Civ without telling us and also freeze growth while one is building, this change will do nothing but slow down early game city leveling which really means very little to player strategy. This is why I suggested a much higher cost in the other thread, but at least it should somewhat reduce the number of AI Pioneer armies.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 21, 2013 8:51:31 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Maybe instead of a flat fixed cost in population, make it a percentage of total population, and that number is the starting population of the new city?  Use a separate unit (engineer?) to build outposts and roads.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 21, 2013 11:55:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Could one not simply split off "build outpost" and "found city" to two different units?  That way the mechanics could be controlled independently?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 21, 2013 12:56:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Matthew Cleveland,
Could one not simply split off "build outpost" and "found city" to two different units?  That way the mechanics could be controlled independently?

I've been asking for this since 0.441....

I'm sure SD has done their hmwrk and have decided against that course of action for a valid reason.

Maybe we'll see more ways to cheat outposts into play in the near future?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 21, 2013 3:03:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm unsure about the whole pioneers costing population thing.

I believe that going wide (many small cities) is simply a better strategy than going wide (few larger cities). City level upgrades dont' fully compensate for this. As a result in the future I will be watching my population and as soon as I hit the threshold, I will built pioneers. Constantly checking my population to see whether I can built pioneers just doesn't seem like a lot of fun...

I would like to see more effort being put into making going wide more attractive.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 21, 2013 4:22:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Had an idea for outposts.

 

Make it where pioneers can construct outposts, but so can regular troops.  Champs and Sovs can't.

 

Time to build 20 turns/number of units constructing.  Doesn't kill the unit.  Makes regular troops a bit more valuable early game, as a militia can build outposts. Outposts do cost gold maintenance  2 gold+ 1 for every upgrade.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 21, 2013 5:44:08 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Sanati,
Sovereign's Call isn't going to be any more of an advantage than Enchanted Hammers or Propaganda. Unfortunately this change wont have much an impact, since at only 30 population cost an early city is likely the regain that population by the time it finishes building a Pioneer. Pretty easy to get 5-6 growth early on (first ~30 turns)....

The population cost is most significant with new settlements. It basically equates to:

"New settlements cannot build a Pioneer until they reach 30 population, and once they do there is a 30 population growth downtime."

Note1: Faction Prestige growth is distributed evenly amongst all settlements. A Faction Prestige of 6 with 6 settlements == A growth of 1 per city barring things that offer absolute benefits such as Sovereign's Call. Unless a player is not expanding it is pretty difficult to achieve a growth of 5-6 in an individual settlement by season 30.

Note2: While the Capital starts with 30 population, new settlements start with 3. That's extremely significant to Pioneer production. Although losing a net 27 population on Pioneer Production --> Settlement is a little absurd in reflection...

This means most immediately that a player can only really produce pioneers from their capital. It also stacks with Faction Prestige distributing growth evenly amongst all of the settlements. It's basically two birds with one stone, as a player that insists on using newly founded settlements to construct pioneers (likely only feasible with Sovereign's Call) will also be putting off the level 2 city upgrade (the most significant one) for quite some time.

If a player is not expanding so rapidly that individual settlements don't have around ~.5 prestige growth by around season 30 then they aren't really settlement spamming in my eyes. A 30-60 season downtime for Pioneer production and 30-60 season delay for the level 2 upgrade is extremely significant, especially as only the Tower of Dominion offers a natural city growth upgrade for lv 1 settlements.

With this in mind, I'm actually liking the population cost more and more. Gildar is more precious overall yes, but it doesn't deny new settlements from immediately producing Pioneers as a population cost would. Gildar can also be way too easily compensated with wind magic + champions with the merchant skills.

I'm imagining a population cost will give player's strong incentive to wait for their capital to upgrade to a town, then they produce Pioneers from their Capital exclusively after having researched as many growth upgrades as possible. I'm hoping the AI has some way to compensate as it can very easily cripple itself without some forethought... Especially if the population cost is on production and NOT on settlement.

Suggestion: If the primary developer goal was to create a Pioneer production downtime on new settlements, creating a population prerequisite rather than a cost might make a lot more sense. Although in that case, you may as well make Pioneers a level 2 settlement exclusive trained unit. It essentially achieves the same thing and is much more easily communicated. It also completely bypasses all of the odd implications of population cost. This still however favors Life Magic users, although at least Empire won't have production constraints on settlements that are already level 2 (primarily their capital).

This creates another problem however: Any player that creates their capital on a tile with 2 grain has already lost the game.

Addendum: And on reflection, Altar can just use the henchman system to spam "Way of Governer" henchmen. So while Relias seems to gimp them initially, mid-game they have it best of all the factions. If the suggestion is implemented however, this is more or less insignificant though.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 21, 2013 11:07:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Not sure if this suggestion is a good idea or late night just before bed musings but here it goes.

Why not create a new local resource that is calculated based off of population.  Something like 50 Population creates 1 volunteer per season.  This new population pool for volunteers can be used for troop production or settlers.  This way the city growth population is separate from the needed mechanic for limiting troop training and settlers early on.  This also covers the problem of limiting it per city as it is a local resource so each city has its own independent pool of volunteers to pull from thereby not really limiting you civilization as a whole except early on.  The only drawback to this would be possibly having to create a possible cap so you couldn't just have unlimited volunteers. Say capped at 10 volunteers per 50 population.  Which is still a lot of people if you used them all up at once.  Finally when you settled a new town you wouldn't get the ability to create a new pioneer for a while until a volunteer was able, or however many were necessary as seen fit.  Also for the slave master trait you could lower the calculation to 25 pop to 1 volunteer.

Anywho that was my late night thought for today.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 22, 2013 9:33:26 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting IlluminaZero,
Note1: Faction Prestige growth is distributed evenly amongst all settlements. A Faction Prestige of 6 with 6 settlements == A growth of 1 per city barring things that offer absolute benefits such as Sovereign's Call. Unless a player is not expanding it is pretty difficult to achieve a growth of 5-6 in an individual settlement by season 30.

It really doesn't matter if it's split. You are getting 6 pop per turn either way, one pioneer every 5 turns, even if you have to cycle building them across however many cities.

 

I definitely agreed with the population cost suggestion, and I'm glad it was added, I just think it needs to be higher to have a noticeable effect.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 22, 2013 10:01:14 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Sanati,

It really doesn't matter if it's split. You are getting 6 pop per turn either way, one pioneer every 5 turns, even if you have to cycle building them across however many cities.

I definitely agreed with the population cost suggestion, and I'm glad it was added, I just think it needs to be higher to have a noticeable effect.

This is assuming that the population prerequisite is pooled by all cities. Being able to produce one pioneer every 5 turns is very different than the ability to produce 6 pioneers every 30 turns when one considers time. While the absolute amount of pioneers is equivalent, the player gaining a pioneer every 5 turns has far more opportunity to actually gain territories. Considers travel time and competition for land with opponents.

Note also that this severely delays level 1 settlements from achieving level 2 as well. This is caused both by the immediate population drop + the smaller distribution of faction prestige. All an Empire faction really has to mitigate a ~.4-.6 growth for a level 1 settlement is the Tower of Dominion and Path of Governor Champions.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 22, 2013 10:02:55 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Still no love for diplomacy? :/

 

The closer the update is, the stronger feeling I have that 30 pop cost for building the pioneer will kill outposts early game... we shall see.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 22, 2013 10:28:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Based upon a needed increased growth curve for population wouldn't it then be more necessary to build outposts for the increased population growth improvement?  So research for that specific improvement while founding a few initial cities or outposts then grow a single large city with several outposts to have a super fast population growth.  This is a more complicated strategy but still possible.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 22, 2013 10:36:07 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting halmal242,
Based upon a needed increased growth curve for population wouldn't it then be more necessary to build outposts for the increased population growth improvement?  So research for that specific improvement while founding a few initial cities or outposts then grow a single large city with several outposts to have a super fast population growth.  This is a more complicated strategy but still possible.

There are three problems with that:

1) With the wording as it is now, mere pioneer production causes the population cost. Each of those outposts is a 30 population hit.

2) The Consulate upgrade has a significant upgrade time to my recollection made worse in that it holds up it's associated settlement. My last few games have been Epic, but from a relative standpoint I recall the construction time to be obnoxious.

3) It's a mid-tier Civil tech. IIRC It's the Civil tech upgrade "Cooperation" or something like that.

Quoting jirkaesch,
Still no love for diplomacy? :/
The closer the update is, the stronger feeling I have that 30 pop cost for building the pioneer will kill outposts early game... we shall see.
 

I feel ya. I want my allies to declare war on aggressors at least.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 22, 2013 11:29:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I see, so it is relatively useless.  Would changing the outposts to have their own production queue make it easier so that they just upgrade for the proscribed upgrade after x turns?  This way they upgrade independently from the main city production queue.  Then that still leaves the population problem.  What about the separate population pool for volunteers?  So it does not take away from a base cities population.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 22, 2013 12:05:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

2 grain isn't a loser, 2 grain+ garden= lvl 2 city.  Then you can build pioneer.  You can build up a garden (2 grain= 4 production or 2 essence) by turn 30.

 

THe outposts would help but require tech that takes a few turns.

 

THis change is a buff to Procinipee who ran replace 30 pop with 50 mana.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 22, 2013 1:11:34 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Alstein,
2 grain isn't a loser, 2 grain+ garden= lvl 2 city.  Then you can build pioneer.  You can build up a garden (2 grain= 4 production or 2 essence) by turn 30.

THe outposts would help but require tech that takes a few turns.

THis change is a buff to Procinipee who ran replace 30 pop with 50 mana.
 

That's true. While Gardens needs to be researched, it's the cheapest tech in the game. It would in theory be a nice offset for the massive material/essence advantage such tiles generally have.

However, thinking about it some more...

1.20's change to 25 food per grain means that 2 grains is sufficient to upgrade to level 2 without gardens.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
January 22, 2013 7:28:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

what if pioneers could be addressed outside conventional ideas.  

example... 

1 time based.  When a city grows a certain size it has the ability to create a pioneer. make it a stage growth reward.  this could limit spam and make outposts vs a new cities a more strategic choice. goodie huts or a resource to give a free pioneer.  

2  bring back neutrals and razing cities gives a free pioneer.  this would let a military player focus on units and earn growth by conquest.

3 could make it research goals.  letting the tech play earn pioneers by research stages.

4 mobs hold hostages and defeating mobs give you pioneers

5 could use prestige to attract nomads,  like an event. 

this might all suck but I'm just throwing it out there.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108432  walnut2   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000516   Page Render Time: