Lord Xia's Treatise on Sovereign professions.

By on November 15, 2012 10:24:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Lord Xia

Join Date 03/2006
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Every Sovereign has a profession that gives them a boost and makes them special compared to your average Champion.  Lets break them down.  Feel free to disagree and discuss.

 

Adventurer This profession allows you to hire champions you have access to for free.  Access is depending on kingdom/empire and tech research.  How good is this?  From the start this saves you about 100 gold on your first champion.  AS the game progresses, it can save you thousands of gold.    Some of the higher caliber Champions cost over a thousand gold, this will let you higher them for free.  This is an excellent profession.

 

Armorer  This gives every unit, champion, sov, everything a +25% bonus to their defense.  It's great.  

 

Bandit Lord This profession allows you to hire bandits you meet in in combat for 25 gold and you start with two bandits from the start of the game.  The bandits you start off with are useful only in the very early part of the game, but can make the very early part of the game easier.  Hiring new bandits can be fun, and can bolster your ranks early in the game, but, they are weak troops and you are pretty limited in your options.  There are no good bandits to hire, and frankly 25 gold is rather expensive for what is available.  This is really a newbie crutch of a profession,  It's really not very good, as much as I think the idea is fun, the problem is bandits really suck and will only be of marginal use and your money is better used elsewhere.

 

BeastLord This gives you the Tame ability, so with some mana cost, you can tame almost any enemy that is a "beast".  The beast can resist.  There are a lot of useful beast out there from Great Wolves and their Howl ability, to Umbredroths toughness and overpower, to Giant ass Hoarderspiders with tons of HP.  Great choice.

 

Diplomat This profession gives you a 30% trade bonus with the AI, 20 influence and the Silver tongue ability.  I can't really say how good the 30% bonus in trade is, I have used Diplomat and have traded, but can't ever think that I really noticed a huge difference, as the AI tends to rape you in deals.  The silver Tongue ability is a really fun one, it allows you to bribe a trained unit from the enemy during combat to switch sides.  It has it's limitations, you can't get Jugs this way, but it's a fun thing to do.  Want some Tarth Archers or Capitar warhorse knights?  Silver Tongue them and they are yours.  But, it cost 30 influence to do, and the ability only gives you 20 influence, so you can't even use the ability once unless you happen to find a prestigious location or level a town and build an influence building, but it's not something you are likely to be able to use early.  Overall, this isn't a bad choice, it's rather fun, but overall mediocre.

 

General This gives the Sov's army a +25% exp bonus.  Big bonus and this is an very good choice.

 

Hunter  This gives you a +50% damage to beast.  This is fairly useless.  Beast are rarely your biggest concerns in this game.  It's nice to do extra damage to spiders and the occasional umberdroth, but most beast are not that difficult to defeat in the first place and this ability will not do much to help you win the game.  It sucks.

 

 Noble This gives you +1 faction prestige and -5% to unrest to all your cities.  +1 faction pretige is pretty much nothing, it can be slightly helpful in the early game with growing your first city, but it's barely noticable.  -5% unrest in your cities is marginally useful in some instances, but pretty much unnoticeable overall.  Very weak profession

 

Summoner This gives all your summons +2 levels and access to the Summon Shadow Warg Spell.  This is also a Newbie crutch profession  The shadow warg is helpful in the early game, but soon losses relevance  and Summoning as a whole is pretty weak.  There are very few summons that are worth a shit.  And even if there were good summons, "Level" increases don't really make a unit all that much more powerful, really only gives them more HP.  Maybe if you get summon earth elemental and take this with a lot of other summoning bonuses, you can summon a single useful earth elemental, but is it really worth it?  Fuck no, this sucks.  

 

Warlock This increases the damage of your Sov's spells by 50%.  It's pretty damn good.  Solid choice.

 

Warlord This decreases unit wages by 50%.  Half priced troops?  Yes please.  This is a pretty solid choice, only made not fantastic by the fact that you probably don't need a lot of trained troops, but if you like to build large armies, this is excellent.

 

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November 15, 2012 10:39:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sounds right. I'd just wanna add that Warlock is a must for a Mage sovereign. It basically can turn the sov into a one (wo)man army. Monsters that are deadly under normal circumstances  (like assassin demons) become trivial because they get wiped out instantly.

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November 15, 2012 10:53:40 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

 
Bandit Lord This profession allows you to hire bandits you meet in in combat for 25 gold and you start with two bandits from the start of the game.  The bandits you start off with are useful only in the very early part of the game, but can make the very early part of the game easier.  Hiring new bandits can be fun, and can bolster your ranks early in the game, but, they are weak troops and you are pretty limited in your options.  There are no good bandits to hire, and frankly 25 gold is rather expensive for what is available.  This is really a newbie crutch of a profession,  It's really not very good, as much as I think the idea is fun, the problem is bandits really suck and will only be of marginal use and your money is better used elsewhere.

 

Hunter  This gives you a +50% damage to beast.  This is fairly useless.  Beast are rarely your biggest concerns in this game.  It's nice to do extra damage to spiders and the occasional umberdroth, but most beast are not that difficult to defeat in the first place and this ability will not do much to help you win the game.  It sucks.

 

 Noble This gives you +1 faction prestige and -5% to unrest to all your cities.  +1 faction pretige is pretty much nothing, it can be slightly helpful in the early game with growing your first city, but it's barely noticable.  -5% unrest in your cities is marginally useful in some instances, but pretty much unnoticeable overall.  Very weak profession

 

For Bandit Lord, have the bandits generate income instead of being an expense.

 

For Hunter, make it 50% damage to everything.

 

For Noble, make it +2 faction prestige and -10% unrest to all your cities.

 

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November 15, 2012 11:00:53 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I agree with you in the good professions, as I have played them. I haven't played the "bad" one yet (and little interest for now).

In fact, I'm playing now a summoner, to see how could it be improved, but it seems it would require a great buffing. Maybe if summon granted  +1 level/level of sov? At least, they could server as tanks. Other than that, it sux too much for now.

Hunter: is like the bad copy of beastlord. I can't even think a way to improve it. A trait to summon a bear, like that hero? Wasted time.

Noble. As diplomacy is weak, I can only think in giving a gildars buffing... What else do nobles do? So sad.

Bandit Lord. I would give a Free Merck Camp in the starting position with the skill to build it without the tech, and free bandits (no wages) over time. They are shitty units, so it is more a pain than a prize. But at least, it make some sense, and the AI could use it.

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November 15, 2012 11:09:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I am not so sure adventurer is that good, since hero do not respwan after hired or killed by enemies (unlike war of magic, they do repswan, but only after tech had be reseached and land is still not own by any faction) it's very limited, and even it's might saved you 1000 gold, making gold is easier and simple, if enemies kill hero before you hired or get them join your rank, that adventurer is useless, unless it's same as old day, making adventurer move faster, move one more turn than normal, then maybe adventurer wasn't that bad....

 

I agree with summoner, it's was fun for me in early game till that wrag or wolve is no good and very weak, and you had to had many fire, water, to get summon spell, it's very costly 2 point each of those fire, earth, water,ect and you had to pick those level up, not always way you want so summoner is very costly of to pick and level up as well, they should move to summon book rather than 4 thing like fire, earth, so summon book is all about summon army and shouldn't be limited to one per summoner.... 

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November 15, 2012 11:23:29 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Nice post and I agree with it pretty much 100%.

Hunter IS bad, and I was thinking to boost it a little, I'd add (in some combination) ,,,

1. All units with ranged weapons also get some combination of damage and accuracy bonus aginst everything.

2. Like the Stealth skill, the Sovereign and his army cannot be attacked by wandering foes, but could still be attacked by monsters guarding lairs.

3. Training costs for Archers (or any unit using a ranged weapon) would be faster and/or cheaper

Hunters should also be excellent trackers, but not sure how to work that in.

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November 15, 2012 11:30:19 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

What if Hunters got double loot from any non-human or fallen enemy they killed?  Makes sense that they could collect multiple Skath fins or both horns from a demon's head.  It would be kind of odd to collect two warg pelts if I only killed a single warg, but I could roll with it.  

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November 15, 2012 11:38:01 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like the idea of Hunters getting double loot.

 

Hunter-> +50% damage vs beasts, access to hunter equipment (think Hunters Bow and Hunter's Axe), and double loot from non-human enemies (or just plain double loot)

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November 15, 2012 11:50:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Go big or go home:

Adventurer and Hunter should be combined together.  You get a 50% reduction in the cost of recruiting champs.  Same bonus attacking beasts.  Plus 50% more when selling to the store.

Bandit Lord could be more useful if there were nastier bandits on the map.  How about, a "bandit vision" trait which gives you LoS for any bandit unit on the map.  That would be a great early-game bonus.

Summoner, like Bandit Lord, could be useful if summons were more useful.  As it stands now, most summons are useless (due to their low defense stats and one-per-caster limit).  The summoner trait (and the level-ups) should boost summon attack/defense/initiative stats.  And you should be able to summon multiple units and just pay more in upkeep.  That little tweak would make summoner-mage on par with dd-mage in the end game.

Noble: 25% bonus to all resource production (horses, mines, etc), -10% reduction i unrest, +1 gildar, +1 influence

Diplomat: could be improved by making diplomacy better overall, but that's for some future expansion. How about a tweak that gives bonuses to the trade/research/caravan income?

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November 15, 2012 11:54:05 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I like the double loot too, but only refered to pelts, webs, fins and all that (I mean: not 2 swords, or 2 scrolls). After all, it is just a gildar bonus attached to loot.

The hunter equipment is nice idea too.

To finish the buff, I would add +2 to critical chance.

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November 15, 2012 11:54:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Agreed on your analysis.

What I'd like to see is the Bandit Lord trait be something closer to the rebel trait in SOASE. Occasionally spawn bandits (AI-controlled) in enemy territory to attack trade, small towns, etc. I also think that Diplomat & Noble should be combined into one trait. It'd be kinda meaty, but overall would become a great choice.

 

Then we have my personal favorite that needs some love, Summoner. I think the trait should give you access to special summons early(which we have), mid-game, and late-game, and/or remove the number cap on summoned units. To make it an even more appealing choice, you can also have it increase exp gained, and/or the overall power (attack & defense) of the units. And lets not have it just be some static increase either, lets go dynamic.. Have it scale with the Sovereign's level. That way the summons remain actually useful throughout the game so long as you are out there getting levels.

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November 15, 2012 12:05:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

 

Adventurer: Some of my stronger (ai controlled) factions have used this, works well with lots of chimps & lots of room to dwell, also nice to use master scouts with this - but they don't do very well without room to expand/search for chimps

Armorer: Ya, this one is nice

Bandit Lord: A lvl 1 warrior specialized sov straight out of creation can handle just about any bandit army (two points needed only - one in might & one for the +4 defense item) - perhaps if they had a +3 square ranged 'net' attack similiar to the spiders webbing & a poison attack (throwing poisonous knives) they could continue to be of use? The bandits themselves could use net'em, throw knives, net'em, throw knives - type tactics  ---- maybe +1 gilder per unit killed by bandit?

Beast Lord: All creatures need to lvl up 'better' - just about all stats should increase some degree (this way one can take a likin to a 'pet' they found, name it, & spend the rest of the game powering up this 'jaberwokiee'  / no unit would be useless due to time anymore (unless idle ofcourse)

Diplomat: I've never used the silver tongue ability - I'll need to try this out myself - does give me the idea for a faction specializing in this ability (mass influence traits) - every battle one could take at least 1/9th of the opposing army while gaining at least 1/9 to your own ranks - plus if influence isn't used up this way one will recieve diplomatic bonuses from having massive amounts of influence or the influence could be traded off for something more usefull

General: This can be used with a trait or two too produce some really high lvl, powerfull mofos

Hunter:

Quoting Trojasmic,
For Hunter, make it 50% damage to everything.
- this or +1 move sounds pretty good, was also thinkin +2 grain in starting city - dunno, I'll have to smoke some more

Noble:

Quoting Trojasmic,
For Noble, make it +2 faction prestige and -10% unrest to all your cities.
- I like it, and maybe 'cruel' needs to go up to +10% unrest

Summoner: Destroy tha summon cap!! or some version there'of

Warlock: with the right spells

Warlord: Ya, this one is nice

 

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November 15, 2012 12:08:07 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

In Kael's Fall From Heaven mod, the Clan of Embers civilization had a one-time-use spell which allowed them to instantly seize control of half the world's barbarian units.  Perhaps the Bandit Lord should get something similar, an expensive spell which gives them half the unowned Bandit units on the map.  Spell would need to cost enough that the player can't just constantly pop it in order to rush or choke every AI- maybe 80 mana?   

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November 15, 2012 12:09:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

God damn Fall From Heaven was awesome.  

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November 15, 2012 1:13:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Trojasmic,
For Hunter, make it 50% damage to everything.

That's just ridiculously good, and hardly makes sense.  What, hunters are great when swordfighting an obsidian golem?

If you want to keep the name and remain halfway connected to common sense, just add scouting to the sovereign... or at least forest/swamp scouting (hills/rivers will still slow him down).  This would make it a solid choice.

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November 15, 2012 1:20:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tasunke,
I like the idea of Hunters getting double loot.

 

Hunter-> +50% damage vs beasts, access to hunter equipment (think Hunters Bow and Hunter's Axe), and double loot from non-human enemies (or just plain double loot)

Can we make it where the Hunter can switch weapons during tactical?  That would be awesome... starts at range with the Hunter's Bow and can switch to the axe if adjacent?   Can we make it a spell effect if the hard coding of the game forbids it?

Also the Hunter could have a trained falcon... whether this creature is an actual unit or a +5 to sight radius starting item will be up to the modders or devs.

Also like the idea of a missile weapon buff for hunter troops.

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November 15, 2012 1:37:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

And I am currently playing a Bandit Lord... and his starting 2 units were pretty useless as was the recruit ability.  

Couldn't we have one or both bandit units be Bandit Archers?  Much more useful.  Someone suggested adding Syndicate troops to those that can be bribed, that would help.  Or can the bandit lord flag Syndicate lairs as troop generators?

Can bandit lords get a random normal item drop once every 20-30 turns?  That would reflect stuff that 'fell off the back of the wagon."  

 

At level 7 the Bandit Lord loot drop trait could include a magic item to reflect his growing stature (Grandmaster of Thieves).

 

Or at least as Trojasmic said, the bandit units you start with each give 1 gildar a turn (Merchant trait) and -5% unrest to the city it is in (Enforcer trait).  "Nice place ya got here, be a shame sumthin' happened to it..."

 

Also great sov ability review, Xia!

 

Oh and Assasin's tools race trait is pretty lame as well... My troops can get a poison vial for melee weapons, but my heroes and sovs can't buy it in the shop?  And what about blow-guns ?!?!  Or poison arrows?!?!?  MEH!

 

 

 

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November 15, 2012 1:41:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Bobchillingworth,
In Kael's Fall From Heaven mod, the Clan of Embers civilization had a one-time-use spell which allowed them to instantly seize control of half the world's barbarian units.  Perhaps the Bandit Lord should get something similar, an expensive spell which gives them half the unowned Bandit units on the map.  Spell would need to cost enough that the player can't just constantly pop it in order to rush or choke every AI- maybe 80 mana?   

 

That would be totally cool!

 

Additional thought on Silver Tongue... could it be made better just by giving Sov +1 influence a turn and 60 influence to start?  You can get two units (or hire a henchman) at the start of the game.  (And can we just get of researching henchman, fricking annoying!?!)

 

Sorry, getting a little ranty!  But the game has soo much more potential for greatness!!!  I'll stop now and post a few more typos in Support... 

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November 15, 2012 1:42:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

agreed on all but adventurer, i jut don't think saving a bit of gold is very good. I'm always loaded with any faction i play, gold is never an issue if you play right

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November 15, 2012 4:06:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Boosts listed appear overpowered and should be reduced by 1/2 of what is listed.  At least half.

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November 15, 2012 4:15:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I might have been overestimating how good Adventure is?  But, I think, like anything you would have to tailor your gameplay to take advantage, but still pretty solid choice.  

 

 

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November 15, 2012 4:19:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Sorry buddy, adventure isn't good unless it's gave you more move per turn, that's other story. something like hat, so it's not that solid choice, unless hero keep respwan hero after hire or enemies kill hero, maybe that ok... I guess...

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November 15, 2012 4:25:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Also, with Adventurer, Relias is probably the one person who needs it the least.  Altar can make tons of henchmen, what does he need with free champs?  Karavox needs it, with betrayer and adventurer, he could gather tons of champs.  If Relias had Diplomat, he could use silver tongue and take an enemy unit every battle, he has near infinite influence.  Krax would be better with an adventurer Sov and Altar would be better with a diplomat.  

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November 15, 2012 4:41:13 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Nice overview. Agree on most (warlock might be nice but its lacking spice...). Shows well that beastlord is just one good option among many. And what needs beefing up. Maybe integrate invisible to monsters in hunter instead of with simple faction trait. Makes the choice for the juicy stuff all the harder (and proffesion guiding playstyle seems good with those things being exclusive).

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November 15, 2012 4:41:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Summoner This gives all your summons +2 levels and access to the Summon Shadow Warg Spell. This is also a Newbie crutch profession The shadow warg is helpful in the early game, but soon losses relevance and Summoning as a whole is pretty weak. There are very few summons that are worth a shit. And even if there were good summons, "Level" increases don't really make a unit all that much more powerful, really only gives them more HP. Maybe if you get summon earth elemental and take this with a lot of other summoning bonuses, you can summon a single useful earth elemental, but is it really worth it? Fuck no, this sucks.

 

I agree.  I'm looking forward to SeanW's and Heavenfall's Goetia, with its many extra summons.  If they don't make some of them require the Summmoner trait, I plan to do that at least in my own gameplay.

 

To be honest, I hope all the poorer traits get a sufficient boost to make them interesting and useful.  I'd like to see Diplomat have the option with a lot of money to "turn" an opponent's units, and Bandit Lord not just give you bandits, but with one or two experience boosting traits for them, as well.

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November 15, 2012 5:31:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Lord Xia,
Also, with Adventurer, Relias is probably the one person who needs it the least.  Altar can make tons of henchmen, what does he need with free champs?  Karavox needs it, with betrayer and adventurer, he could gather tons of champs.  If Relias had Diplomat, he could use silver tongue and take an enemy unit every battle, he has near infinite influence.  Krax would be better with an adventurer Sov and Altar would be better with a diplomat.  
Well to be fair, Altar isn't much a diplmat, he is a adventurer in storyline if you playing single player storyline, Now I don't know what krax personal in storyline...hmmm.

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