piers/logging camps

By on November 13, 2012 7:09:01 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Xexamedes

Join Date 11/2012
0


If my city starts next to a river or forest, I can build a pier or logging camp.

If I have a shard or other resource beside my city, build on that and then have a forest in the next square I can sometimes build a logging camp.

But if I snake buildings to a forest or river, I am unable to build a pier or logging camp.

I'm wondering if these structures are only available to villages, since every occassion that it's refused to offer them for building is after I've built 2 resources up and my city has reached level 2 before I've tried to place the camp.. or if I'm just doing something wrong

Locked Post 46 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2012 5:31:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

NorsemanViking, every one of your arguments can be easily applied to disabling tactical combat and troop design, because there are troop types that the AI cannot handle in tactical combat.

I'm sure that if I try a bit harder, I can apply it to converting Fallen Enchantress into a side-scroller with one button, as well.

The latter paragraph is an exaggeration.  The former is not.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2012 6:09:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tuidjy,
NorsemanViking, every one of your arguments can be easily applied to disabling tactical combat and troop design, because there are troop types that the AI cannot handle in tactical combat.

I'm sure that if I try a bit harder, I can apply it to converting Fallen Enchantress into a side-scroller with one button, as well.

The latter paragraph is an exaggeration.  The former is not.

 

Well Tuidjy, at least there is strategy and fun to the troop design and tactical battles, but I agree alot of what the human can do at the current state of things are exploitive to the AI. One of many examples is the salted pork that the AI never uses in tactical battle, but atleast it's a meaningfull strategical choice for the player to choose if the money for it is worth it or not.

Snaking adds no strategy at all, and makes city placement choosing a non-brainer and no real choice. That it also gives the human player a huge advantage is a side point, but an important one. That's the huge difference from many of the other human exploits possible. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2012 6:53:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting NorsemanViking,
Snaking adds no strategy at all, and makes city placement choosing a non-brainer and no real choice.

Well, I think that there is an art to snaking, just as there is an art to troop design, and I know that I still agonized over city placement when snaking could get you a pier or a forest.

But these are all subjective.  I personally believe that snaking's main benefit is dominion push, and snaking to resources is a poor third, after quick travel. It's rather strange when the first two are OK, but the third is frowned upon.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2012 7:00:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tuidjy,



...But these are all subjective.  I personally believe that snaking's main benefit is dominion push, and snaking to resources is a poor third, after quick travel. It's rather strange when the first two are OK, but the third is frowned upon.

 

I agree that is strange too. In my opinion the developers should put an end to that kind of snaking as well. You should have to fill out the closest tiles to the inner tile first, just like the game does it when auto placing improvements in the city. The only reason for placing buildings yourself should be the controll of where the buildings shall be put within these limits, and the only reason for placing them yourself would then be esthetical reasons.

It would also be easier to understand for new players, since it would follow the same logic as auto-placement.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2012 8:01:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes, but manual placement starts off so new players won't have any problems anyway.

Having manual placement as an option for people who really want it is reasonable, sure it can be exploited but it is only single player after all, there are already plenty of other ways to make your game easier or harder depending on which mechanics/build options you choose to exploit.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2012 8:30:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You all forget,
AI still tries to exploit this and completely fails at it because it's not allowed. Change the AI to build cities in appropriate locations or allow snaking.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2012 5:47:44 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I'm afraid that we will not get into it.

From a "logical" point of view, not allowing sneaking makes the same sense as not having a roadbuilding unit. I mean, it is a decision from Devs. We find it arbitrary, they will state reasons for doing that way (or not).

If you need a forest to build a lodging camp...the city grows and now you have access to a forest! It is so hard to understand that mechanics...

I will complain, and bump every post I see related with it.

 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2012 11:26:45 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree with those requesting the restriction of city access on river and forest access to just adjacent tiles be removed.  I can understand the rational for this but it really does remove a lot of the enjoyment of the game for me.  Some good solutions have been suggested;  expanding radius on city size, complete fill of squares before new ones are allowed to be used.  In the interim of a permanent solution just make it a setting option and let us have the fun game we want.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2012 11:33:25 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums
this whole thing seems to be taken out of proportion imo. devs made the right choice here, as otherwise the restriction would become way less meaningful and city placement decisions easier. it's solid design, and citysnakes are godawful... in the future they could come up with a system similar to civ5 culture expansion which would be nice, but for now I think it's fine. want a lumbermill? settle next to forest. there's a better tile that's not next to a forest? pick one, you can't always have the cake and eat it too
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2012 11:43:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


auto build city is ugly, I like to control what building to make city petty.. LOL

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2012 2:58:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting crimsongekko,
this whole thing seems to be taken out of proportion imo. devs made the right choice here, as otherwise the restriction would become way less meaningful and city placement decisions easier. it's solid design, and citysnakes are godawful... in the future they could come up with a system similar to civ5 culture expansion which would be nice, but for now I think it's fine. want a lumbermill? settle next to forest. there's a better tile that's not next to a forest? pick one, you can't always have the cake and eat it too

Why not? That's what SD has been trying to do with FE right from the get go. They had a huge debate on single tile cities versus multi tile cities back in, I think it was, beta 3. They decided on multi tile cities to give the player the rpg experiance of exanding cities. Why expand a city is there is ZERO point to expanding a city? Without snaking, might aswell role back to single tile cities and be done with it.

In any case, they already had the mechanism in place because when the redesigned city features first came in out beta 4, snaking did exist. AND IT WAS FUN. The entire purpose of the Manual Placement Option was for players to be given manual control in how they wanted their city to expand and develop. It was a very RPG feature and was very enjoyable to do.

Then it was taken away. Why? The arguement was that it was too powerful for a player to snake. The AI snaked too. In fact, the AI still builds cities in locations where they expect to be able to snake (at least randomly so) towards a river or forest tile. Now ALL those cities are being chosen under sub-optimal conditions since their full potential can no longer be reached.

I still think the answer lies in the Manual Placement Option. If auto-placement is active, deny snaking as the AI is not attempting to do so. If manual-placement is active, allow snaking, since AI is attempting to do so anyways.

Problem fixed. And 100% of players are very happy with their cake.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2012 3:05:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

As usual, GFireflyE is 100% correct. 

There's a bunch of people on this forum who seem to think exactly the way I do.  I wonder what's wrong with us, and whether we should form a political party or a support group.  Not that two options are very different nowadays, in the good ole U.S. of A.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2012 4:04:00 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting GFireflyE,
I still think the answer lies in the Manual Placement Option. If auto-placement is active, deny snaking as the AI is not attempting to do so. If manual-placement is active, allow snaking, since AI is attempting to do so anyways.


Problem fixed. And 100% of players are very happy with their cake.

If this could be easily done, would be the perfect solution

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2012 4:31:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I do agree AI should be tweaked to be consistent with the chosen mechanic of course

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 16, 2012 9:19:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tuidjy,
As usual, GFireflyE is 100% correct. 

Wow. Wish my wife would read this.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 16, 2012 9:51:55 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Tuidjy,
I just wish the developers would finally see the light and remove the ridiculous restrictions on snaking to rivers and forests.  It's completely counter-intuitive, there almost no one who likes it, it's makings dozens of people asking questions.

Seriously, if your rules are so convoluted that old timers are confused about how exactly they work, as evidenced in at least four current threads, you should just change them.

I really hope they don't put snaking back into the game. Very annoying feature. However they should allow any builing to be built if your Zone of Control encompuses that terran feature (forest/River/Ocean etc. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 16, 2012 10:37:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Bellack,



Quoting Tuidjy,
reply 14
I just wish the developers would finally see the light and remove the ridiculous restrictions on snaking to rivers and forests.  It's completely counter-intuitive, there almost no one who likes it, it's makings dozens of people asking questions.

Seriously, if your rules are so convoluted that old timers are confused about how exactly they work, as evidenced in at least four current threads, you should just change them.



I really hope they don't put snaking back into the game. Very annoying feature. However they should allow any builing to be built if your Zone of Control encompuses that terran feature (forest/River/Ocean etc. 

Agreed that extreme snaking isn't the answer. That's why we're hashing out ideas to limit snaking....like all squares in a tile must be filled before being able to build on the next square out....etc.

Also agree that it seems silly that you cannot build, in your ZoC, buildings that you should be able to build. 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 16, 2012 11:11:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's not silly to make game mechanisms that force you to take hard choices.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 16, 2012 11:16:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting NorsemanViking,
It's not silly to make game mechanisms that force you to take hard choices.

It is silly, if they are silly mechanisms.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 16, 2012 11:27:58 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I noticed that if you build your settlement one tile away from a forest, you wont get able to build any logger camps, even if you got infrastures or other buildings up next to it. So the settlements need to be right next to it, samn for using piers and docks as well. Not sure if they will work on rivers.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 17, 2012 1:34:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I would prefer it if it wasn't hard coded so I can change it with a mod.

Edit: Nevermind... I have figured out how to mod it back into the game.

http://forums.elementalgame.com/436856

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108432  walnut2   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000172   Page Render Time: