Are juggernaughts overpowered?

By on November 1, 2012 9:17:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

rvgr

Join Date 10/2012
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The Yithril are usually my first target if they're nearby. Juggernaughts are of course the reason why. Handling one or two Juggs is no problem at a time, but as more of them get trained, the lethality of the Yithril armies seems to grow exponentially. A Yithril sovereign + 4 Juggs is a BIG problem. I am curious to know what is the general consensus on the Juggs and what are your favorite anti Jugg strategies.

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November 1, 2012 9:58:52 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I agree. Juggernaughts are defintely overpowered.

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November 1, 2012 10:19:54 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

They're easy enough to deal with using offensive magic (then again, everything is), but putting even the best champions into melee with them is risky (maul! aaagh), and they're just downright stupidly insanely overpowered against normal troops (overpower+splash+maul.. it's just too much). I'd rather send an army of trained units to face a dragon instead of a couple juggernauts. It's good for units to have strengths and weaknesses against certain other units, but Juggernauts are too extreme - they force a very narrow playstyle to counter them. When I'm playing Ceresa, they die easy; when I'm playing Markin, I'm screwed. That's not fun gameplay.

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November 1, 2012 10:23:54 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I know when I face them I tremble with fear. This is a good thing, overpowered maybe. It would be nice if playing as Markin that the iron golems provide a good counter to the juggernauts. If only the case that they can take the hits from the juggernauts.

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November 1, 2012 11:19:43 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting parrottmath,
I know when I face them I tremble with fear. This is a good thing, overpowered maybe. It would be nice if playing as Markin that the iron golems provide a good counter to the juggernauts. If only the case that they can take the hits from the juggernauts.

They are more powerful than they should be. It gets even worse after YOU play with Yithril, and create a couple of really effective builds. Wait until you face Juggernauts with 26+ initiative, or ones with ironskin, chain belts, and amulets of warding and precognition.

A naked bruiser is scary, one with OK armor and defense against ranged attacks is terrifying, and the latter with the AI bonus from ridiculous is unstoppable.

Juggernauts need a slight nerf. As it is now, in early game you can rush Yithril. In late game, your heroes can kill juggernauts. In the middle game, you fight Yithril, and unless you have been designing your armies for Juggernaut killing, you lose.

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November 1, 2012 11:34:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Juggernauts - for a nerf, I'd say don't allow them to use magical items or make them like the spiders where you just train them and don't equip them.

 

Thankfully I never play Yithril cause they're boring to me, so I don't face the super-jugheads.

 

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November 1, 2012 11:41:13 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

A slight nerf might be an order. The problem is that Juggs are essential for the Trog armies. Without them the Yithril are just a gimped version of the Gilden.

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November 1, 2012 11:46:47 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

They're powerful when they first show up, but then get trashed later on.  So that seems 'fair' already.

 

Dragons on the other hand...

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November 1, 2012 11:52:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

No, they're awesome as is.  Yithril is one of the only factions that I care about when they're on the map.  Yithril & their Juggernauts are an example of faction differentiation done right.  You see white borders on the map and you think "Holy shit, that's a problem because they have these big insanely strong monsters that are going to kick my ass".  Juggernauts are Yithril's identity.

People care.  When people see Pariden, they don't care at all.  When they see Yithril, they take notice and, if they're smart, they start to plan accordingly.  How many other factions in the game have that effect? 

 

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November 1, 2012 11:57:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Leave them alone.

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November 1, 2012 11:58:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

ManDjinn... OMG! But seriously good to see ya on Stardock forums. 

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November 1, 2012 12:00:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sure! Let's make the game more bland by making everything the same!!!!! If we nerf the Juggernauts just enough I won't fear them if I face them, or my enemies won't fear me!!

Ridiculous.

Leave 'em be.

 

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November 1, 2012 12:10:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting mqpiffle,
Sure! Let's make the game more bland by making everything the same!!!!! If we nerf the Juggernauts just enough I won't fear them if I face them, or my enemies won't fear me!!

Ridiculous.

Leave 'em be.

 

This reply makes Lord Markin cry. 

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November 1, 2012 12:23:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm pretty sure juggernaut backswing vs counterattack is bugged too - if you dodge their first attack and kill them with the counterattack, you take damage from their backswing anyway - fecking juggers

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November 1, 2012 12:29:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Juggernauts by the player? Completely. There are just too much that you can abuse.

 

Juggernauts by the AI? Really not too bad, they just don't know how to employ them to best effect. There are many tactics to overcome them.

 

IMO, they do need a slight nerf, but I really think the AI needs some help on using some of the special units. Although to be fair, it's still WAAAAY better than Golems or Henchmens. The AI is completely hopeless with those, although Golems just suck in general.

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November 1, 2012 12:40:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kalin,
IMO, they do need a slight nerf, but I really think the AI needs some help on using some of the special units. Although to be fair, it's still WAAAAY better than Golems or Henchmens. The AI is completely hopeless with those, although Golems just suck in general.

perhaps balance the Golems & the Juggernauts against one another since one is the epitome of offense & the other defense, either should when 50% of the time - I spent alot of effort getting max armour on my Golems & it still took 2 to take'a jugg

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November 1, 2012 12:40:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kalin,
Juggernauts by the AI? Really not too bad, they just don't know how to employ them to best effect. There are many tactics to overcome them.

How many of them work against Juggernauts designed by the player?  The magical items and traits make a huge difference.

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November 1, 2012 12:42:00 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Hawawaa,
ManDjinn... OMG! But seriously good to see ya on Stardock forums. 

 

I've been here for a long time... just forgot which email account I used for the other one and by the time I figured it out, I had already reset my password.  Stardock sends an email to the last email address, which I go to... just to find out that the host had deleted the account due to years of inactivity.  If only I could get that account reopened, I'd lose about 2.3 million off of the member number (7/24/2006 - is my other accounts sign up date when I was here for GalCiv II).

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November 1, 2012 12:43:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

They aren't overpowered at all, you just need to understand their strengths and weaknesses.  Their strength is melee attack and their weakness is no ranged weaponry.  Use the spell stinking mud and several mage groups with fire staffs.  I slaughtered 3 full armies one after the other without a hit point of damage to me.

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November 1, 2012 12:44:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tuidjy,

How many of them work against Juggernauts designed by the player?  The magical items and traits make a huge difference.

Oh definitely, the design and trait synergy makes them very powerful, however, my kiting impulsive archers still take out my own juggernauts without too much trouble. Of course I also hunt wild land bosses with the same army, so it's really no comparison. The army composition and tactics is just something the AI can't effectively counter.

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November 1, 2012 12:58:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I would say change their damage from 300% to 200%.  

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November 1, 2012 1:36:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Are Juggernauts over powered? YES!

Are Juggernauts MEANT to be over powered? YES!

Deal with it. If it's too much, play Yithral...I hear they get Juggernauts.


 

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November 1, 2012 2:09:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I wouldn't be opposed to a slight nerf but maybe the other faction abilities/bonuses need to be buffed in other ways to increase differentiation.

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November 1, 2012 2:26:54 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It would be nice if every RACE had something overpowerful like the Jugs.  I would rather everyone have something OP than nerfing it.  But what do others have?  The Trogs also get beserk ability and extra 20 on their wieght capacity, no penalties.

 

MEN has Henchmen, in players hands, probably at least if not more OP than Juggs.  In the AI, not so much, they don't seem to make good use of them. Also has +10% exp bonus for race.

IRONEERS have Golems.  Great Damage takers, but certainly not the game changers that a Jug can be or as versatile or potential as henchmen.  Their damage dealing is too low.  Race also gets +1 hp per level, 30 spell resistance  but tactical spell penalty.  

QUENAR Have slaves.  Slaves have no upkeep cost and are quick to produce, their strength lies in their numbers and speed at which they can be cranked out, very useful for both player and AI.  Race also gets 50% fire resistance  but -50% cold resistance.  Fire resistance is more than worth the cold penalty, as fire is far more common an attack than cold.

 

 

The rest have no special units.

KRAX Krax gain the ability to fortify tiles, making them difficult to hurt along with a +10 bonus to their defense when under 50% hp.  This is a little wonky with trained units, as the +10 doesn't seem to work when the entire unit is less than 50% hp, but when the last member of the unit is less than 50%, so that means almost dead.  I might be wrong on that, need to look into it further.  But anyways, the fortify is a great ability.

TARTH  They get a +3 to attack and initiative if their armies are in groups of 3 or less.  I have really mixed feeling about this one, pretty useful in early game, worthless in meaningful battles later.  Helpful if you use powerful champs with minimal support and excellent in early game

 

AMARIAN Get bonuses from the number of shards their nation has, and a -1 hp per level penalty.  This is pretty awful actually, you gain nothing early game, and just have a penalty and if you survive long enough to have a few shards, it's rarely very meaningful bonus, with the exception of the initiative bonus is which is at least something.   Pretty terrible overall. 


WRAITH  These heal when they kill their enemy.  3 hp a kill.  Now, it's a total of 3 hp, so a unit of 7 that kills a unit doesn't get 21 hp, they get three.  This can be of some bonus for champs and your sov especially early in the game, but quickly becomes irrelvant and not nearly as good as their -1hp per level is bad.  Pretty aweful too.


 

 

 

 

 

 

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November 1, 2012 2:35:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


In my opinion Juggernaughts are supposed to be over powered. When I see them I give them proper distance as generally they are something I don't want to mess with at the time. This is good. I will not take one on lightly anymore.... after losing my whole army except for my sov against one....

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November 1, 2012 2:45:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kantok,
No, they're awesome as is.  Yithril is one of the only factions that I care about when they're on the map.  Yithril & their Juggernauts are an example of faction differentiation done right.  You see white borders on the map and you think "Holy shit, that's a problem because they have these big insanely strong monsters that are going to kick my ass".  Juggernauts are Yithril's identity.

People care.  When people see Pariden, they don't care at all.  When they see Yithril, they take notice and, if they're smart, they start to plan accordingly.  How many other factions in the game have that effect? 

 

 

And therein lies the problem. The fact that no one cares about the other factions is terrible, and makes for a predictable and more boring game. As Lord Xia said, make the other factions more deadly in some regard.  Leave the jugs as is and make the other factions more noteworthy. 

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