Dynasties and Sea Travel

By on October 31, 2012 11:52:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

GaelicVigil

Join Date 08/2010
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I harp on this about once a week, and I'll continue to do so until they're put back in the game.  It's like this: how would you feel if you were looking forward to buying a game with features x, y and z, you waited for months for said game to come out because x, y and z were promised, and you enjoyed x, y and z when the game was released.  Then one day, out of the blue, you download a patch and features x, y and z no long exist.  Would that piss you off?  You purchase something with some great features that you love and all of a sudden you get the bait-and-switch.

I purchased WoM in large part because of the dynasty and ship systems.  The game had those features for quite some time, and then one day they were scrapped.  They disappeared.  That's bullshit.  It's one thing to release a game and later do some balancing and stamp out bugs, it's quite another thing entirely to just cut out entire features of the game that your customer expected and paid for, completely without warning.

Here's the thing, I don't give a damn if they have no quantifiable effect on game-play.  They are fun.  Period.  When I order a burger and fries and it comes with a free toy I don't scream at the guy in the window to take the toy out of the happy meal because it comes with something extra.  Maybe the guy waiting behind you actually wants that free toy.  If YOU don't like dynasties and sea travel, don't use them, it's no skin off your back.  But don't tell me that I should have my free toy removed because you don't like it.

And honestly, I don't care if the AI can't make use of them.  If these two features were put back into the game just the way they were before they removed from WoM, I'd be 100% fine with that.  The reviews are out, the game has been given a unanimous thumbs up by the gaming mainstream media, now it's time to please those of us who got screwed by having these removed in the first place.  I mean, for goodness sake, there is a gigantic ship in the game's desktop wallpaper.  A little bit of false advertising there, you think?

Put them back in Stardock.

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October 31, 2012 12:19:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Meh to both.

Dynasties may be cool, but it would ONLY work if properly functional within the diplomacy framework. As is, diplomacy with other factions is far from decent and a great deal more work needs to be done in that aspect before dynasties can be revisited.

As to ship units, I really don't like the concept of having ship units in FE. I would MUCH rather see 4-way wrap world in effect so that land formations are contiguous in any direction. HOWEVER, since ships have already been included in the campaign, odds are they'll be in an expansion...and if that is the case, FE is going to require all oceans spaces to be 'conquered' in some way....whether there be resources to harvest....or supply lanes to control....or water based and air based units to obtain.....as well as magical means to do all said aswell, then I think ship units should be allowed. Anything less, and it's a VERY incomplete concept.

 

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October 31, 2012 12:21:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I would like both boats and dynasties back,  I loved them, but I have been saying this for two years.  I don't think the devs agree.

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October 31, 2012 12:27:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm kinda 50/50 on sea travel. I'd take it, but I'm certainly not pissed it's not there.

 

Dynasties on the other hand. Ugh! Keep them out. They would just throw off hero balance once you start having kids. The only way that works is making heroes mortal. And I much prefer the current system.

 

 

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October 31, 2012 12:36:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GFireflyE,

Meh to both.

Dynasties may be cool, but it would ONLY work if properly functional within the diplomacy framework. As is, diplomacy with other factions is far from decent and a great deal more work needs to be done in that aspect before dynasties can be revisited.
 

So you don't want the toy in the happy meal.  Don't use it then, but don't force others to play the way you do.

Quoting GFireflyE,

As to ship units, I really don't like the concept of having ship units in FE. I would MUCH rather see 4-way wrap world in effect so that land formations are contiguous in any direction. HOWEVER, since ships have already been included in the campaign, odds are they'll be in an expansion...and if that is the case, FE is going to require all oceans spaces to be 'conquered' in some way....whether there be resources to harvest....or supply lanes to control....or water based and air based units to obtain.....as well as magical means to do all said aswell, then I think ship units should be allowed. Anything less, and it's a VERY incomplete concept.
 

I don't care what you like and don't like.  Don't force me to do what you like.  And I shouldn't have to pay for ships in an expansion that I ALREADY paid for in the original game.

I don't care if it's incomplete, put it in as it was.  A big mac and an extra small fry is better than a big mac and nothing.

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October 31, 2012 12:37:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Leo in WI,
I'm kinda 50/50 on sea travel. I'd take it, but I'm certainly not pissed it's not there.

 

Dynasties on the other hand. Ugh! Keep them out. They would just throw off hero balance once you start having kids. The only way that works is making heroes mortal. And I much prefer the current system.

 

 

 

Don't like it, don't use it then.  Don't force me to play your way and I won't force you to play my way.  This talk of upsetting the "balance" is a load of crock anyway.  On random maps, the balance is completely tipped anyway based on starting positions and local resources.  There is barely a shred of "balance" in FE anyway.  Not that it matters a whole lot without multiplayer, balance is not exactly a top priority.

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October 31, 2012 12:42:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You people are so negative. You can turn Dynasties back on in the xml you know. Also you could mod WoM style boats back in, they would just be as stupid and pointless as in WoM. The AI wouldn't use them.

Since the beginning of Fallen Enchantresses development the devs have occasionally mentioned these two areas. We will eventually see them, they were simply not included in base FE because they had to use their time in more important areas. I think we can agree that a dynasty system without unique and interesting champions would be pointless, and boats without a half way decent economic system or AI would be odd. I really want naval travel as well, I have created my own request threads, but I know they have bigger priorities. 

Quoting GFireflyE,
Dynasties may be cool, but it would ONLY work if properly functional within the diplomacy framework. As is, diplomacy with other factions is far from decent and a great deal more work needs to be done in that aspect before dynasties can be revisited.

This too, diplomacy needs to expand quite a bit before we see real dynasties. Derek mentioned they had a brainstorming session and came up with a new interesting system for dynasties but in the end couldn't justify spending the time to add it in. Awhile back they also mused about boats and transports in particular. Brad was considering a portage system instead of having dedicated transports, because it would be much much easier on the AI. It's hard on the AI to know when to build harbours, when to build transports, and how to get units in transports. It's actually very complicated. Be assured they have given this stuff some thoughts but there are still a lot of issues with the existing game they need to solve first before they can worry about expanding the game. 

Quoting GaelicVigil,
I don't care what you like and don't like.  Don't force me to do what you like.  And I shouldn't have to pay for ships in an expansion that I ALREADY paid for in the original game.

Ok now your just being entitled. If you bought Elemental when it came out you will be getting the next expansion free, and if you didn't nowhere does it say this game includes naval travel or dynasties. 

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October 31, 2012 12:44:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If you're gonna implement dynasties, you'll have to implement aging and death as well. I would be mighty pissed if I lose a lvl 20+ sovereign to old age.

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October 31, 2012 12:47:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Dynasties if done right would be something good to add back in the expansion.   Same with naval combat, though I would ok if that was axed for more interesting features, or saved for a mini-expansion after the 2nd expansion when it can be handled on its own (which is what I think it would take)

 

 

I still think there's plenty of things that can be done to improve what already exists in FE.   Several things aren't balanced or are non-choices right now (recruitables don't work right, several balance issues, etc)

 

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October 31, 2012 12:52:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DsRaider,
You people are so negative. You can turn Dynasties back on in the xml you know. Also you could mod WoM style boats back in, they would just be as stupid and pointless as in WoM. The AI wouldn't use them.

Prove it.

Quoting DsRaider,

I think we can agree that a dynasty system without unique and interesting champions would be pointless, and boats without a half way decent economic system or AI would be odd.

No, we can't agree.  See what I just did there?  I disagreed.  So don't start arguments on false pretenses.  How is it pointless?  If I'm having fun with it, and it makes MY  game better, how is that pointless?  I seriously don't get your argument here.  If I'm given a stupid free toy with my happy meal, how does that make my burger taste worse?

 

 

Quoting DsRaider,

This too, diplomacy needs to expand quite a bit before we see real dynasties.

Why?  Seriously, what is with this group think that we can't have x until y is working even though y has very little to do with x???  I don't give a flying fish if diplomacy works better first.  I want dynasties, I want to role-play marriages, family relationships, I want my kingdom to have emotional connections.  Not EVERYTHING in gaming has to have a stupid mechanic or game-play bonus for it to be fun.  Is this a mentality born from min-maxing in MMOs?  I seriously don't get it.

Quoting DsRaider,

Derek mentioned they had a brainstorming session and came up with a new interesting system for dynasties but in the end couldn't justify spending the time to add it in.

I don't care about a "new interesting system".  I loved it just the way it was. 

 

Quoting DsRaider,

Awhile back they also mused about boats and transports in particular. Brad was considering a portage system instead of having dedicated transports, because it would be much much easier on the AI. It's hard on the AI to know when to build harbours, when to build transports, and how to get units in transports. It's actually very complicated. Be assured they have given this stuff some thoughts but there are still a lot of issues with the existing game they need to solve first before they can worry about expanding the game. 

Again, stop with the "issues we need to solve first" BS.  The sea travel and dynasty systems as they were in WoM relied very little on other systems.  Does it matter to the AI that I can land my units near his city using a ship, while the Pariden can do the same thing currently using magic?  What's the difference?  I don't care if the AI can't use ships, I only cared that I COULD.

 

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October 31, 2012 12:55:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting rvgr,
If you're gonna implement dynasties, you'll have to implement aging and death as well. I would be mighty pissed if I lose a lvl 20+ sovereign to old age.

Why?  The permanent scarring system works great.  Why can't my dynasty family champions get scarred just the same?  If you're worried about too many champions from dynasties, turn champion spawning down on creation.

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October 31, 2012 12:56:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GaelicVigil,



So you don't want the toy in the happy meal.  Don't use it then, but don't force others to play the way you do.

&

I don't care what you like and don't like.  Don't force me to do what you like.  And I shouldn't have to pay for ships in an expansion that I ALREADY paid for in the original game.

I don't care if it's incomplete, put it in as it was.  A big mac and an extra small fry is better than a big mac and nothing.

Right back at you. Don't force your ideas onto other players and especially don't think you know better than those that actually made the game.

Suggestions and opinions are all you have.

I've chosen to utilize those tools. You should do the same.

You're attitude displayed here pretty much voided any point in continuing this thread as you are obviously very upset that these two features were left out of FE.

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October 31, 2012 12:58:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm looking forward to ships.  I looked forward to ships in Total War games for a decade, and now Naval combat is awesome.  I hope than in a few more decades, Creative Assembly will even make an AI that handles naval invasions flawlessly. (As opposed of naval invasions being the easiest way to crush an enemies' armies in Legendary Shogun 2)

So, give Brad and Stardock some time.  I am sure they WANT to have good ships in the game.

As for dynasties, I do not know how they worked in War of Magic.  I could not get into that game.

But if heroes are made mortal, kids take 52 turns to grow up, and diplomacy accepts marriages, it can be fun.   Still, first I would like to see an immersive AI, an early game welcoming new players, and good sales for the original.

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October 31, 2012 12:58:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Alstein,
Dynasties if done right would be something good to add back in the expansion.   Same with naval combat, though I would ok if that was axed for more interesting features, or saved for a mini-expansion after the 2nd expansion when it can be handled on its own (which is what I think it would take)
 

"If done right"?  They were cool before.  Were they perfect?  No, of course not, but I don't care if it wasn't perfect, it was cool as it was.  I loved it, I bought WoM for it.  I want it back.  It doesn't hurt anyone else to have them back in.
 
 

Quoting Alstein,

I still think there's plenty of things that can be done to improve what already exists in FE.   Several things aren't balanced or are non-choices right now (recruitables don't work right, several balance issues, etc)

 

Exactly, there are already TONS of imbalanced things in FE right now.  So why do so many people get their panties in a wad when it is suggested we put something back in because it will "hurt the balance".  The game is already unbalanced, it's a sandbox game.  More toys in my sandbox is ALWAYS better.

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October 31, 2012 1:00:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GaelicVigil,
More toys in my sandbox is ALWAYS better.

Hard to disagree here, expect to remind you that developer effort channeled into one toy reduces developer effort on something which may be more important.

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October 31, 2012 1:00:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GFireflyE,

Quoting GaelicVigil, reply 5


So you don't want the toy in the happy meal.  Don't use it then, but don't force others to play the way you do.

&

I don't care what you like and don't like.  Don't force me to do what you like.  And I shouldn't have to pay for ships in an expansion that I ALREADY paid for in the original game.

I don't care if it's incomplete, put it in as it was.  A big mac and an extra small fry is better than a big mac and nothing.


Right back at you. Don't force your ideas onto other players and especially don't think you know better than those that actually made the game.

Suggestions and opinions are all you have.

I've chosen to utilize those tools. You should do the same.

You're attitude displayed here pretty much voided any point in continuing this thread as you are obviously very upset that these two features were left out of FE.

Excuse me?  STARDOCK forced Dyansties and Ships on us in WoM and I bought the game with those features included.  I'm not forcing my ideas on you, but you're forcing them on me.  At the current time I CAN NEVER have ships and dynasties  but if they were in the game you can still choose to use them or not.

My attitude is:  Give me what I paid for.  You don't like that attitude.  Fine.

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October 31, 2012 1:02:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tuidjy,

Quoting GaelicVigil, reply 14More toys in my sandbox is ALWAYS better.

Hard to disagree here, expect to remind you that developer effort channeled into one toy reduces developer effort on something which may be more important.

Except that developer effort is already done for these features.  They simply need to be turned on again.  How long would that take?  A few hours of work.  DSRaider, here, says you can easily turn it back on in the XML.  If so, perhaps Paxton or another savvy modder needs to post a mini tutorial on how to do that.  I would be fine with that alternative.

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October 31, 2012 1:07:33 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I'd like to see both of them too. There are other priorities to spend Dev's time? Maybe there are some things to fix (I hope for the patch 1.01), but I think it is time to start adding ideas for a possible expansion, and these two things would be great.

 

 

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October 31, 2012 1:08:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You're very rude GaelicVigil and this game wasn't made just for you, it's absurd to think Stardock should spend their time and money on the stuff you want and not try and make a great game for everybody. Anyway...

To get dynasties back open the the ElementalDefs xml file and find the tag <EnableDynasties>0</EnableDynasties> then simply change the 0 to 1. 

It's much more work to get boats back but it is possible if you simply steal the assets from the campaign, where they exist and you can build harbours. Although you would also need to re-add beaches somehow. 

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October 31, 2012 1:09:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GaelicVigil,
At the current time I CAN NEVER have ships and dynasties but if they were in the game you can still choose to use them or not.

My attitude is: Give me what I paid for.

Last time I checked, you still own E:WoM. This game is in addition to E:WoM, it isn't a replacement. Nobody took away your right to play the game you DID pay for.

Stardock did not in any way, shape, or form HAVE to give us FE for free. I absolutely appreciate that they did, but I certainly don't think I have the right to tell them what they do/don't have to put in a game they are giving me for free. And that is the attitude you are espousing that is getting everyone all riled up.

You are certainly free to your opinion, just as we are, ours.

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October 31, 2012 1:16:13 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DsRaider,
You're very rude GaelicVigil and this game wasn't made just for you, it's absurd to think Stardock should spend their time and money on the stuff you want and not try and make a great game for everybody. Anyway...

To get dynasties back open the the ElementalDefs xml file and find the tag <EnableDynasties>0</EnableDynasties> then simply change the 0 to 1. 

It's much more work to get boats back but it is possible if you simply steal the assets from the campaign, where they exist and you can build harbours. Although you would also need to re-add beaches somehow. 

But they've already spent their time on money on these features in the first place.  I'm sure most of the code and media still exists.  I'm not asking for them to improve them, just to add them back the way they were.  Like I said, these features impact the rest of the game very little as far as balancing goes.  I think adding them just adds another toy to the sandbox, I don't complain when someone gives me something a little extra even if that something isn't perfect.  

That's why I don't see how putting them back in is such a terrible thing at this point.  The reviews are out, FE has gotten some good press.  Nobody's going to bash the game at this point for putting a couple more feature back in, even if they are half-hearted.  At the very least, give us an optional tutorial on how to do it ourselves.

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October 31, 2012 1:21:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Leo in WI,

Quoting GaelicVigil, reply 16 At the current time I CAN NEVER have ships and dynasties but if they were in the game you can still choose to use them or not.

My attitude is: Give me what I paid for.

Last time I checked, you still own E:WoM. This game is in addition to E:WoM, it isn't a replacement. Nobody took away your right to play the game you DID pay for.

Stardock did not in any way, shape, or form HAVE to give us FE for free. I absolutely appreciate that they did, but I certainly don't think I have the right to tell them what they do/don't have to put in a game they are giving me for free. And that is the attitude you are espousing that is getting everyone all riled up.

You are certainly free to your opinion, just as we are, ours.

So the answer is: go back and play WoM 1.0 and be happy with it.  That's a tough pill to swallow after 2 years of thousands of other tweaks and features to fix all the problems in the original release just to play something that ALREADY existed at one point.

I'm not asking for much, just put back in, or give us instruction to put back in a couple awesome features that I and many others really, really loved.  I remember being told on multiple occasions that these features would be included with FE and had been TEMPORARILY taken out of WoM until they could be fixed.  Now, the vibe I get is, "boats and dynasties, what boats and dynasties?", like they have been completely taken off the table.  That sucks to be given something, have it taken away, be promised it will be given back, and then told again that it won't come back.  That's called lying in my book, and not just once.

I think I've made my point, my definition of fun does not always include a mechanic that has to always impact the game in a quantifiable way, nor does it require OTHER things to be fixed first in order for it to still be fun.

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October 31, 2012 1:23:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

great discussions, I would like to have them too.

 

I would also like to get free DLC for every new player I bring into the fold.

 

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October 31, 2012 1:25:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting athelasloraiel,
great discussions, I would like to have them too.

 

I would also like to get free DLC for every new player I bring into the fold.

 

Love the hyperbole, great way to add to the forum man.

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October 31, 2012 1:27:22 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Well FE is not WOM different game. However I do agree not having sea units is pretty lame and I do not agree with the decision.  The Dynasty part I'm not  really upset about. It was a cool idea but I could do without.

The Devs never promised these two features with FE. Trust me I have stated my optinon about the devs not having sea units.

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October 31, 2012 1:29:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GaelicVigil,

Except that developer effort is already done for these features.  They simply need to be turned on again.  How long would that take?  A few hours of work.  

The developer effort ISN'T already done for these features.  If they were to throw them back in as they were in WOM they'd be tacked on, poorly integrated crap that would confuse new players and detract from the quality experience that SD has spent two years crafting in FE.  

Quoting GaelicVigil,

DSRaider, here, says you can easily turn it back on in the XML.  If so, perhaps Paxton or another savvy modder needs to post a mini tutorial on how to do that.  I would be fine with that alternative.

Nobody needs to do shit and what you're fine with doesn't matter even a little.  Maybe you should get off your ass and figure it out if its so important to you.  No single one of us in the community is such a special snowflake that anyone else needs to do things for us.  None of us have the right to demand anything.  Communities like this operate on good will which your entitled attitude says you clearly don't deserve.  

DsRaider is a nicer person than I (+1 for him).  I wouldn't have posted that information for you after the attitude you've shown in this thread.  Especially since turning dynasties on has been talked about AT LENGTH and Brad himself has posted before about how to do it.  But it's easier to come in here and throw a tantrum than to do a few minutes of research yourself and figure out how to do things.  

You're attitude isn't "give me what I paid for".  It's "give me what I want now or I'll throw a tantrum".  It's the same attitude as my eight month old son.  On him it's cute, sometimes, but on an adult it's sad and pathetic.  

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