Save Scummers

By on October 30, 2012 11:58:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Emperor_Nero

Join Date 12/2010
+1

Save scumming is cheating in my opinion. Strategy games are ALL about decisions (much like roguelikes, which are honestly more strategy than RPG sometimes) and reloading a bad decision is just totally against the spirit of strategy games. Strategy games are about dealing with the decisions you make and making critical decisions. Maybe I am just a 'hardcore' gamer or a purist or whatever you want to call it but I only save to take a break from the game and to avoid crashes. I use a single save and I don't go back - I live with my decisions. That is how I think a strategy game is supposed to be played. I always thought this was the norm for strategy games.

What do you guys think? Are you a save scummer or do you play ironman in FE? If you save scum why, I'd like to know the rationale.  

 

(PS: Don't mean to come off as offensive or combative, just giving my opinion. Don't hate. haha.)

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October 31, 2012 12:09:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I've always been of the opinion that you can't really cheat in a single player game.  But, that being said, you also can't complain about the game being too easy if you do a lot of reloading.  If you are reloading, it's not easy.

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October 31, 2012 12:23:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I love to play this game as an ironman.

That said I do as you put it 'save scum', but this is to check out different tatics within the game and see some of the different portions that I would be too afraid of trying in a real game. I also 'save scum' when my kids decide to push a button on me and now I have to live with that choice... or the game glitches out. I really don't like playing all my games on 2-year old difficulty (which is probably harder than insane and can crash the computer).

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October 31, 2012 12:27:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting parrottmath,
I love to play this game as an ironman.

That said I do as you put it 'save scum', but this is to check out different tatics within the game and see some of the different portions that I would be too afraid of trying in a real game. I also 'save scum' when my kids decide to push a button on me and now I have to live with that choice... or the game glitches out. I really don't like playing all my games on 2-year old difficulty (which is probably harder than insane and can crash the computer).

 

There is a difference in saving to avoid bugs and child mishaps and continually reloading to win. 

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October 31, 2012 12:27:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I reloaded today when the autobattle went fucking bonky.  But I have no shame about reloading.  But then again, I don't claim to be awesome at the game either.

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October 31, 2012 12:30:07 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Guilty as charged!

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October 31, 2012 12:38:55 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


One thing about a save scummer though they will always make excuses to justify their cheating themselves. Xia is correct though as long as you're cheating yourself it doesn't matter except when you come to the forums and proclaim the game too easy because you cheat. (save/reload) and want the developers to make the game more challenging while you cheat. lol that ain't gonna happen evah I don't think.

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October 31, 2012 12:42:30 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I dont in vanilla FE. Its generally pretty open and honest about what is going to happen. (ie you know roughly what chance you have)

In the Masters Affliction mod I get steamrolled so very often by hidden mobs or quests that have a dark wizard (yes! a flaming dark wizard in tact combat) that I make a number of saves and may reload 20 or 30 turns in the past to redo an entire strategy.

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October 31, 2012 12:44:49 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like loading saved games in any game I play, after I fall flat on my face.  Because I know that the only way I'll learn is if I can get it right, and move on to my next falling-flat-on-his-face event.  If I just end it all and restart, I'll never get a chance to make more advanced, and different mistakes.  I'll be like Mr. Dick in David Copperfield: slightly barmy, always restarting his thesis because in the first page or two he starts discussing Charles I's head.

 

That actually does make sense if you disregard the part about  David Copperfield.

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October 31, 2012 1:02:48 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

when I save scum ... its usually only in the beginning stages of my understanding of a strategy, so that I can try out different angles, etc. (I'd probably say I'd save scum maximum of once for each strategy + race combination ... as far as playing one game to relative completion.)

Since these types of games take a long time to play, I'd rather a bad event (assuming it occurs) didn't ruin the whole game, or well, at least my current strategy.

I mean, what good is testing out a strategy if some random event requires me to shift my strategy in order to cope with it? Of course I'd prefer to win with any means possible, but if I ALREADY know that strategy A will work, then I don't wish to default to A just cause I don't know how to continue with strategy B assuming the event would prevent me from doing so.

 

That said, I haven't save scummed at all lately. In the early game (when little things matter more) I will tend to save scum if its a matter of wanting my soverign on the field, or wanting to avoid a bad injury for a champ with good potential ... So in the early game I tend to reload if either My champion gets a particularly bad trait (for instance, if a dodge focused champ gets a -25% dodge injury) then I may wish to reload.

 

But yea, I haven't save scummed for quite a while in my current game. Just did it about 2-3 times during the early (vs wild) part.

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October 31, 2012 2:48:54 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


In a battle I could win with no problems if I did it manual but went auto instead for speed and it goes terribly wrong I might reload and play out the battle manually. Aside from that I don't reload a save unless i have e genuine misclick or bug.

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October 31, 2012 2:53:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't reload when a battle goes wrong, or an event has an undesired outcome, but I don't mind if other people play the game differently. It's single-player, after all, so it doesn't affect me.  It's just years of playing roguelikes that have instilled the preference.

Might be nice to have a checkbox during the game creation. "Hardcore" mode, or something, perhaps with a bunch of achievements.

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October 31, 2012 3:04:26 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I do reload while I'm learning to play a game... but once I feel that I know what to expect, I have more fun playing without reloading.

But to each his own.  My enjoyment is in no way affected by how other people enjoy their games.  That said, I hate games where you cannot succeed without reloading.  Fortunately, Fallen Enchantress is not one of them.

As for Ironman mode, I do not need one, especially as Fallen Enchantress is not bug free enough to rely on one save.  I still remember how my ironman save on Chaos Gate got corrupted on mission 14 (I believe). I never finished that game, and I loved it.... I wonder whether I can get it working on Windows 7.

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October 31, 2012 6:16:25 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I reload while I'm learning the game, trying different tactics in tactical battles, test out some spells and stuff like that after I know the game I don't reload though I save every so often to avoid losing data due to crashes or small fingers pushing the wrong buttons (my 4 year old son sometimes wants to help out).  The only times I reload in FE now is when I'm autocalcin and something weird happens then I reload and play it manually.  I usually autocalc battles I know I'm going to win and I can't be bothered fighting.

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October 31, 2012 6:35:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

i do reload in certain instances. Usually when my pet snake/umberhound/thingy dies horribly in an accident.

 

I blame it on the randomness. There's too much randomness. The range for random damage on physical attacks is insane. Any given attack can fail or succeed dramatically with little consistency. This diminishes strategy and planning, and makes your success (imo unfairly) dependant on luck. 

So when some little group of darklings rolls a max damage critical hit, and wipes out my favourite pet through sheer luck, you're damn right i'm going to reload.

 

I also reload incessantly when near dragons. Because i consider them to be broken. I've never, ever, EVER seen a dragon attack any AI units, such as other empires. They victimise the human player solely, which i'd consider cheating. therefore i feel justified in constantly reloading a save when a dragon attacks me, until it gets bored and decides to not attack. in the early/midgame, dragons are like "weather". they're just a big unstoppable force that roams around and ruins your day. i've had four clambercoils roaming around my empire at one point, randomly isolating towns for several turns at a time because it becomes too risky to send troops/pioneers in and out without constant reloading.

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October 31, 2012 9:50:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I have no problem loading if the game does something outside the realm of reasonable. Examples include losing an auto-battle that I SHOULD have easily won, coming across bugs or imbalances that alter the events of the game, having a monster randomly attack you through unreasonable circumstances, etc.

If that makes me a 'save scummer', than I'll be the best save scummer I can be.

 

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October 31, 2012 9:59:30 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Generally speaking, I'll start a new game rather than load and replay.

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October 31, 2012 10:09:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting willie sanderson,

One thing about a save scummer though they will always make excuses to justify their cheating themselves. Xia is correct though as long as you're cheating yourself it doesn't matter except when you come to the forums and proclaim the game too easy because you cheat. (save/reload) and want the developers to make the game more challenging while you cheat. lol that ain't gonna happen evah I don't think.

 

I don't see that happening a lot.   Am I missing something?  I haven't seen anyone say both that they use saves and that the game is too easy.  Is this something really prevalent or mostly a pet peeve?

 

 

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October 31, 2012 10:12:23 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's happening in topics on the front page of this forum.

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October 31, 2012 10:14:20 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hm this post is odd at best, I have not understand the people who "hate" "Savescummers" or whatever you call people that actually uses a feature implemented in a game.

I don't think saving and reloading is cheating, I am not deceiving anyone, and I am not breaking the rules of the game.

THAT SAID. I only load a game in FE when the game is bugged, that is fairly rare that I ever do that and the Autosave feature is enough of a cushion to help against crashes and whatnot.

I understand both worlds, when you play IRONMAN mode, you do it because you like the challenge, you don't mind losing your units when things go bonkers, and generally have to play more cautiously.

When you Save/Reload, you are trying to really optimise what has  happened, you want every single step of the game to be perfect and flawless. It also is a way to prevent random dice hating you, but that is up to the people who use it.

(PS: Don't mean to come off as offensive or combative, just giving my opinion. Don't hate. haha.)

How Ironic after that post...

That all.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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October 31, 2012 12:03:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kongdej,
Hm this post is odd at best, I have not understand the people who "hate" "Savescummers" or whatever you call people that actually uses a feature implemented in a game.

I don't think saving and reloading is cheating, I am not deceiving anyone, and I am not breaking the rules of the game.

THAT SAID. I only load a game in FE when the game is bugged, that is fairly rare that I ever do that and the Autosave feature is enough of a cushion to help against crashes and whatnot.

I understand both worlds, when you play IRONMAN mode, you do it because you like the challenge, you don't mind losing your units when things go bonkers, and generally have to play more cautiously.

When you Save/Reload, you are trying to really optimise what has  happened, you want every single step of the game to be perfect and flawless. It also is a way to prevent random dice hating you, but that is up to the people who use it.


(PS: Don't mean to come off as offensive or combative, just giving my opinion. Don't hate. haha.)

How Ironic after that post...

That all.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

 

I never said hate. I was just saying that reloading the game when something goes wrong is against the spirit of the game. Unless you are playing a game that is buggy, are likely to have mishaps, or are learning the game. If you sit down to the game, understand the mechanics, and know methods of winning it just doesn't make sense. This is my personal opinion, but playing a flawless game? If you're continually reloading it I don't see how you could get any pride out of completing that flawless game.

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October 31, 2012 7:18:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Emperor_Nero,
I never said hate. I was just saying that reloading the game when something goes wrong is against the spirit of the game.

You never said hate, but the way you presented your post, and the way most players are presenting this idea, like the word you use "Save Scumming" is very very negative, so while I say you "hate" (ok I might be putting words in your mouth to be exact) I base it from something rooted in your arguments, you are very negative about saving and reloading.

I know it might be hard to put oneself in others position, I only know about saving/reloading because I used to do that with FE for my first few runs, and I did with one playthrough of Xcom, you can always argue its more fair not to save or reload, but I will argue, how is saving and reloading a cheat, if it is implemented as a feature in the game? Thats is like saying using the cloth map is cheating, because you get a clearer view of the map.

I am sorry for my own negativity though, I just have a slight annoyance at the term save-scumming .

Thank you for understanding, hope I could at least help it make slightly more sense to you.
Just understand the people who play like this come from a different point of view, I think both approaches can be interesting, although I personally prefer iron-maning games, unless the game is having fairly too random outcomes
I am having a hard time appreciating X-com on Iron-Man, meaby because I suck at it , or because sometimes the starting positions are randomly screwing you over with incredibly difficult positions almost UN-winable... And I do play Xcom in a rather different way that I do Elemental for some reason

please do tell me if I am being stupid though

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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October 31, 2012 7:25:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Is save scum anything like soap scum? 

Because I HATE soap scum.

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October 31, 2012 7:35:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Generally, I'll reload in 2 these 2 situations. 

   1.  an auto-resolved battle didn't go the way I wanted (total loss or just too many units lost).  I will try again and fight the battle myself, but then I take what I get.  If I'm in command and I lose, it's either my fault or it was un-winnable to begin with.  Side note: maybe If i start to feel a game is going well for me or if i'm on Normal mode, I'll auto-resolve any battle in which my sovereign is not taking part.

   2.  when I accidentally choose the wrong specialization for a city because the level-up window doesn't show me enough information.   City location factors into this decision and it's difficult to tell which city is leveling if I have more than 3 because i pioneer-spammed effectively.

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October 31, 2012 8:26:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Haha, I just save scummed like a mother fucker!  Take that Drake wanting to eat my town, I pulled a Superman and just turned back time!

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October 31, 2012 8:36:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I generally load when... I start up the game. I feel ashamed. I'm sorry everyone, I'm just not cool enough.

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